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  1. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbysWorld View Post
    I'm not actually trying to insinuate or say anything other than pointing out its interesting where the us vs them paradigm leads on both sides of an equation, and worth musing on or examining.
    What annoys me about this whole 'let's split the fanbase into armed camps and get them to fight for our amusement' from the writers is how much it requires the writers to write the characters in 'controversial' ways to weaponize this marketing strategy.

    It was easy enough, and didn't necessarily hurt the characters for the Twilight marketing flaks to weaponize 'Team Shirtless Werewolf vs. Team Sparkly Vampire' campaigns as free advertizing / hype building, but for the comic writers to pit Reed and Charles against each other, neither are straight-up villains, and both have their fans, so the writers need to craft a situation where neither of them are just 100% wrong, and both of them come up looking sketchy or wrong-headed, so that neither of them can claim the moral high ground (and neither of them is the clear villain. But that just makes both of them look assy, and, IMO, pisses on fans of *both* of the characters, since they are only being written 'controversially' to service this desired faction-building.

    Both Charles and Reed, among other qualities, are *smart dudes,* and this kind of BS shouldn't fly. Charles *might* wipe information he considers a threat to mutantkind from an ally's mind, but *he wouldn't then brag about it which defeats the whole purpose since it motivates Reed to get the information back!*

    Charles could have used that fancy degree in psychology he's supposed to have and said, 'Hey, Reed does all sorts of stuff out of a misguided notion to protect his son. Maybe I can set up a mental link between him and his son and they can actually talk about whether or not Franklin *wants* to hide his mutant gene and 'stay in the closet' and live a lie, because dad is scared of mutant-haters. Maybe that would motivate Reed to be more pro-actively protective of mutants in general, and more vocal about being a mutant ally?'

    If for instance, Reed gets his idea schematics back and starts to pursue it more aggressively and in ways he wouldn't have BEFORE Xavier did what he did, at least in part BECAUSE of what Xavier did specifically....leading to it being more easily or more likely to end up weaponized against mutants as a whole, is it not worth acknowledging in that kind of scenario that however justified Reed is in feeling wronged, it was one single mutant that did that to him and yet many others that might suffer as a result of his personal conflict with Xavier? And how does that compare to or reframe other characters' stances, their in world logic/justifications for being so pro-Krakoa...when specifically looked at as being their reactions/attitudes towards humanity as a whole even when it was just specific singular humans who persecuted or hurt them in the past?
    Also a factor. Secrets always come out. (Generally at the worst time, for plot / drama reasons.) And Reed ending up making something *worse* than a 'hide your X-gene' invention for his son (like, oh, say that gun that turns your mutant powers off, that Forge made), because he doesn't remember the nicer option anymore thanks to Charles, would be exactly the sort of unintended consequences that would bite Charles in the butt for his actions.

    It does amuse the cynic in me that a comic that's a metaphor for 'hate and fear of the other' has grown to the stage where it has fans as rabid in their 'othering' of different groups ('flatscans') as the one the comic was meant to speak against.

  2. #197

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    Why does it have to be all or nothing. Like i question anti vaxers but i would never disrespect an anti vaxer that had the compassion to think "i may not believe in vaccinations but i will make sure i wear a mask, and socially distance and stay away from certain places where i may be able to infect someone else, especially those with preexisting conditions" because to me that shows a believable person who is rational and empathic in their beliefs. It's not always all or nothing.

    I can't be mad at someone living their personal beliefs with true conviction but i can question someone who doesn't think about how they effect someone else. i think that's fair.
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  3. #198
    Astonishing Member CoCoBandz's Avatar
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    Thread kinda got outta hand with the Reed vs Charles stuff no?
    The Krakoans are EEEvil!

    THEY MUST BE STOPPED!

  4. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    What annoys me about this whole 'let's split the fanbase into armed camps and get them to fight for our amusement' from the writers is how much it requires the writers to write the characters in 'controversial' ways to weaponize this marketing strategy.

    It was easy enough, and didn't necessarily hurt the characters for the Twilight marketing flaks to weaponize 'Team Shirtless Werewolf vs. Team Sparkly Vampire' campaigns as free advertizing / hype building, but for the comic writers to pit Reed and Charles against each other, neither are straight-up villains, and both have their fans, so the writers need to craft a situation where neither of them are just 100% wrong, and both of them come up looking sketchy or wrong-headed, so that neither of them can claim the moral high ground (and neither of them is the clear villain. But that just makes both of them look assy, and, IMO, pisses on fans of *both* of the characters, since they are only being written 'controversially' to service this desired faction-building.

    Both Charles and Reed, among other qualities, are *smart dudes,* and this kind of BS shouldn't fly. Charles *might* wipe information he considers a threat to mutantkind from an ally's mind, but *he wouldn't then brag about it which defeats the whole purpose since it motivates Reed to get the information back!*

    Charles could have used that fancy degree in psychology he's supposed to have and said, 'Hey, Reed does all sorts of stuff out of a misguided notion to protect his son. Maybe I can set up a mental link between him and his son and they can actually talk about whether or not Franklin *wants* to hide his mutant gene and 'stay in the closet' and live a lie, because dad is scared of mutant-haters. Maybe that would motivate Reed to be more pro-actively protective of mutants in general, and more vocal about being a mutant ally?'



    Also a factor. Secrets always come out. (Generally at the worst time, for plot / drama reasons.) And Reed ending up making something *worse* than a 'hide your X-gene' invention for his son (like, oh, say that gun that turns your mutant powers off, that Forge made), because he doesn't remember the nicer option anymore thanks to Charles, would be exactly the sort of unintended consequences that would bite Charles in the butt for his actions.

    It does amuse the cynic in me that a comic that's a metaphor for 'hate and fear of the other' has grown to the stage where it has fans as rabid in their 'othering' of different groups ('flatscans') as the one the comic was meant to speak against.
    See, thing is I'm totally in agreement with you that this story is kinda forced as it requires both Reed and Xavier to be their worst selves with each other and just enable each other in escalating a situation that had so many other alternative situations. But I do think its kinda notable how easy it is for some people to expand the conflict to Reed vs Krakoa when the lynchpin of the conflict is, as has been pointed out, wholly between Reed and Xavier with the latter not exactly having consulted all of Krakoa before doing what he did. Which makes it a bit 'bwuh?' IMO seeing how quickly it jumps to being all of Krakoa's fault that Xavier's a dipshit. Like 99.9% of the people on that island likely have no idea the events of that mini even happened, y'know? So if both characters are kinda being extra with a side of yikes in this story, it still doesn't work for me that suddenly its Reed vs people who weren't even in the story and have nothing at all to do with the thing he's mad at, but I'm hard pressed to imagine a story direction here that makes any actions Reed takes or invention he makes aimed SOLELY at payback for Chuck vs something that has the capacity to affect all mutantkind in equal measure, even though ultimately the story is just....Reed is big mad at Xavier and has reason to be. That's the disconnect that's bugging me about this, the almost eagerness by some people to equate Xavier with all mutants in this when literally nobody but him said hey what if you go do the thing that you do in this story and piss off Reed Richards, that's a good plan.

  5. #200
    Incredible Member Doom'nGloom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoCoBandz View Post
    Thread kinda got outta hand with the Reed vs Charles stuff no?
    Definitely so sorry about that. This is the last thing I will say about Reed vs Charles situation. If Reed ever becomes a threat then its because Charles thought he can mess with the mind of one of the brainiest dudes at marvel, brag to his face about it and believing this to be the end of it. A mistake he should have foreseen a mile away.

  6. #201
    Braddock Isle JB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoCoBandz View Post
    Thread kinda got outta hand with the Reed vs Charles stuff no?
    Yeah.

    Bishop looked extra hot this issue.
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  7. #202
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    All the talk of lobotomies and retaliation. You guys do know they're meant to be heroes right?

    Anyway, knowing Reed he'll use it to save some mutants in a way Charles can't. I think that's the best revenge and follows Reed's M.O.
    Anything else would be out of character for both him and Kitty as well as jeopardize his relationship with his family.
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  8. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    Kitty going behind Charles back and getting Reed's knowledge back. I LOVE IT!!!

    Is anyone else shipping Pyro and Lourdes now too?



    That would have been best...but I would maybe also throw in a Sentinel attack on the FF over Franklin.
    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    This was a great wrap up issue. This Bishop and Pyro were fire and wish the team had gotten more. hopefully duggan can get a companion x-book since he was doing two in this era with perhaps a different statement he can showcase his skills on but this was a very consistently pleasing book for me.
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    I'd love to see Duggan follow up on these possibilities.
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  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sutekh View Post
    So anywho, I feel like this is perhaps the first issue that made some serious use of *everyone,* not just Emma and Kate, but Bishop and Pyro got a side-gig, Callisto stabbed some fool in the neck a bunch, Iceman beat up some Frost Giants, Shaw, of all people, got some development, etc. Of those on the cover, only Tempo failed to show, and she's technically not part of the crew quite yet, I think, so that's okay for now.

    It is a bit 'eh' that it took over three years of the Emma and Kate show, guest-starring 'those other guys,' to get here, but hey, Marauders has finally arrived!
    I struggle to see what development Shaw has had the entire book, to suddenly give up his seat just because Lourdes is back is not character development imo. I mean I don't mind that he made the overture ,but where is that coming from? I struggle to see any stakes in this book.

  10. #205
    Braddock Isle JB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    I struggle to see what development Shaw has had the entire book, to suddenly give up his seat just because Lourdes is back is not character development imo. I mean I don't mind that he made the overture ,but where is that coming from? I struggle to see any stakes in this book.
    At the end of issue #20 he and Emma have a quiet moment where he reveals that planning for the gala is making him miss Lourdes. He wants to propose having her resurrected to the QC so she can be by his side.
    Issue #22 Emma and Charles discuss the secret of Lourdes being alive and he gives her the ultimatum of telling Shaw or else he will. Emma tells him she's alive and he falls to his knees.



    She explains that Lourdes wanted to escape his abuse so they faked her death. Her death is what led to him becoming the ruthless person he became that took control of the Hellfire Club. Everything he did was because of the pain of her death. Now he realizes it was all a lie.



    It's the first time I felt sympathy for Sebastian Shaw. And when he saw her in the flesh, he just gave in.
    But he's playing games with her and Shinobi so he's still up to his old tricks.

    It's like a telenovela and I'm here for it. Escándalo!
    Last edited by JB; 01-16-2022 at 10:35 AM.
    "Danielle... I intend to do something rash and violent." - Betsy Braddock
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  11. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    At the end of issue #20 he and Emma have a quiet moment where he reveals that planning for the gala is making him miss Lourdes. He wants to propose having her resurrected to the QC so she can be by his side.
    Issue #22 Emma and Charles discuss the secret of Lourdes being alive and he gives her the ultimatum of telling Shaw or else he will. Emma tells him she's alive and he falls to his knees.



    She explains that Lourdes wanted to escape his abuse so they faked her death. Her death is what led to him becoming the ruthless person he became that took control of the Hellfire Club. Everything he did was because of the pain of her death. Now he realizes it was all a lie.



    It's the first time I felt sympathy for Sebastian Shaw. And when he saw her in the flesh, he just gave in.
    But he's playing games with her and Shinobi so he's still up to his old tricks.

    It's like a telenovela and I'm here for it. Escándalo!
    Yeah I know Shaw was told about Lourdes, but I personally find it too contrived, like now that he sees her with his own eyes,he suddenly is willing to give his seat, just because he knows she's alive? No question of where she had been hiding, what she has been up to? The way he acted seems unnatural, I know what they were going for ,but this is the first time he's seen her in years and that is all there's to it? I think it could have been made more believable, plus Lourdes just jumping back into Hellfire after hiding from him for so long, is just weird imo.

  12. #207
    Astonishing Member Lucyinthesky's Avatar
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    Rev your Inbox seems to be full thanks I send you the pm
    Last edited by Lucyinthesky; 01-16-2022 at 01:38 PM.
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  13. #208
    Braddock Isle JB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    Yeah I know Shaw was told about Lourdes, but I personally find it too contrived, like now that he sees her with his own eyes,he suddenly is willing to give his seat, just because he knows she's alive? No question of where she had been hiding, what she has been up to? The way he acted seems unnatural, I know what they were going for ,but this is the first time he's seen her in years and that is all there's to it? I think it could have been made more believable, plus Lourdes just jumping back into Hellfire after hiding from him for so long, is just weird imo.
    I think ultimately he loves her and the guilt of forcing her into hiding has eaten at him. Ever since he found out she was alive he's been a bit more of a team player with the marauders too. But I'm hoping this gets further explored in Immortal because he's up to something.
    For all we know he may be bitter that she lied to him and now wants to set her up for a fall, seeing her demand to take his seat as an opportunity. If she crashes and burns at her new role at HF, she's toast.
    "Danielle... I intend to do something rash and violent." - Betsy Braddock
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  14. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbysWorld View Post
    I love when people are like rawr Krakoan age sucks because the X-Men have no nuance and are running around consorting with villains and hating humans all willy-nilly, but then the second a thread turns into an X-character versus non X-character Rumbles even with it acknowledged that both characters were being douchebags, we quickly devolve into 'well at least the non-x characters could totally do this' and posit siccing Galactus on an island of mutants because of the actions of like, Xavier, singular. As though one-shotting the whole neighborhood is a proportionate response to a single mutant's actions, and not at all lacking in the nuance towards Krakoa that a lot of people feel Krakoans lack in regards to humanity. I'm just saying, I feel like there might be a smidgen of irony to be found lurking somewhere in there.

    (And I mean, you guys did make a point of specifying Valeria and Franklin directing their responses towards Krakoa overall instead of just like....treating Xavier like the sole bad actor in the actions they're retaliating against. Would Valeria let 'them' off so easy as though there's been any mention of literally any other mutant in this scenario other than Xavier acting of his own volition, or Franklin unleashing Galactus. C'mon, we all know Galactus doesn't do precision work, lol. My point is just there's a tendency of a lot of posters to criticize the X-books for not acknowledging that there's a breadth of human beings and sentiment out there and its not one size fits all, while being pretty blithe about hypothetically wiping the whole island off the map because of the specific actions of specific characters.)

    Reed Richards created a device that acts as temporary handcuffs on mutant powers and hides mutants from being detected.

    Xavier responded by psychically raping Reed Richards.

    They aren't remotely comparable. Xavier IS the sole bad actor, here.

  15. #210
    Astonishing Member Habis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GregoryD View Post
    Reed Richards created a device that acts as temporary handcuffs on mutant powers and hides mutants from being detected.

    Xavier responded by psychically raping Reed Richards.

    They aren't remotely comparable. Xavier IS the sole bad actor, here.
    Codex-X doesn't disable the x-gene, it only hides it. Mutants using Codex-X still can access their powers at will.

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