Would you like OMD to be undone?

[Vanguard-01]

Gee a little bit too much caffeine... and second I didn't say everyone you made that generalization ... Marvel as a general consensus and I thought it was pretty common knowledge to the nerd-herd group (and I mean that affectionately) but guess I was wrong.. David Michelinie who was one of the writers of the story even before the 1st Wedding issue came out stated that I believe we made a mistake, but from your tone that wont be enough, then think back Spider-man history they tried to kill of Mary-Jane which they wanted to make permanent but too much fan-rage , the wanted to replace Peter Parker with a clone which was also to be permanent but also too many fan rage.. I'm also sure if I put any real effort I can find multiple interviews that state my argument but in my circle that is common knowledge and I'm not in the mood to do something so tedious for common knowledge just to argue with someone who likes to vent ...

But I'll give you this just so you don't totally think I'm making my comment up

http://www.spidermanreviews.com/2012...ers-hated.html

So, the writers hated the marriage.

They kept trying to end it.

The fans loved the marriage.

Every time the writers tried to kill the marriage, the fans were outraged and the writers had to relent.

Marvel killed the marriage this time.

The fans were outraged.

Marvel decided to say "Eff you all! WE don't like the marriage, and we're keeping it gone!"

Marvel is in the customer service business.

Their customers want the marriage.

Marvel is refusing to service their customers.

Conclusion? Marvel writers are selfish.

[Phantom Roxas]

Gee a little bit too much caffeine... and second I didn't say everyone you made that generalization ... Marvel as a general consensus and I thought it was pretty common knowledge to the nerd-herd group (and I mean that affectionately) but guess I was wrong..

You referred to Marvel as a collective entity. I get you meant the majority, but if that's the case, doesn't that suggest that there were people at Marvel who did like the marriage?

David Michelinie who was one of the writers of the story even before the 1st Wedding issue came out stated that I believe we made a mistake, but from your tone that wont be enough, then think back Spider-man history they tried to kill of Mary-Jane which they wanted to make permanent but too much fan-rage , the wanted to replace Peter Parker with a clone which was also to be permanent but also too many fan rage..

Vanguard-01 summed up pretty well why your point about the "history" doesn't work, but yes, it is not enough for you to simply say David Michelinie said they made a mistake. The most I can find is that Jim Shooter just thought that David Michelinie was making the story too continuity-heavy.

I'm also sure if I put any real effort I can find multiple interviews that state my argument but in my circle that is common knowledge and I'm not in the mood to do something so tedious for common knowledge just to argue with someone who likes to vent ...

Just because it's basic knowledge to you doesn't mean you can flaunt it as common knowledge to everyone else, and just because I like to vent doesn't excuse you from being too lazy to bother at least attempting to prove me wrong. If you're going to make an argument and cite a source, and someone asks you to back it up, you know what you should be doing? Backing it up.

But I'll give you this just so you don't totally think I'm making my comment up

http://www.spidermanreviews.com/2012...ers-hated.html

I am honestly surprised that Mets acknowledged Peter and MJ's relationship as an improvement from past relationships. However, his argument relies heavily on assumptions that portray the marriage as making things difficult for the writers, even though, judging by Kurt Busiek's quote, it's still only because it limits the possibility of Peter having romantic interactions with women. Is showcasing his dynamic with other women essential to Spider-Man's story? I understand the idea that Peter needs to endure hardships, but the only hardships that were made "easy", by why the way Mets says it, is that Peter didn't need to hide anything from Mary Jane, which erases the drama of Peter having to hide his life as Spider-Man from his wife, and that he has a happy marriage, but again, both of those share one thing in common: Peter is "tied down" with one woman who knows his secret.

The idea that marriage automatically makes Peter's - or anyone hero's - life "perfect" is just nonsensical. It assumes that Peter's life can't be challenged. It doesn't consider that, because Peter has a marriage, he has more to lose. The more you build up a hero's happiness, the bigger the effect is should you attempt to tear that down. If the writers wanted there to be drama, then one idea that could be that the Peter's life with Mary Jane is a big target. Marriage should raise the stakes, not lower them. Romantic interactions could be one-sided, with someone like Felicia not giving a damn about Peter's marriage, or Peter being Spider-Man being presented in a situation where he says he's married, someone asks him who his wife's name is, but he refuses to say it, so the woman chooses to interpret that as a sign that Peter doesn't think Mary Jane is worth talking about. Yes, it would be wrong and creepy, and be something that one would expect from a femme fatale or some other kind of seductive villain, but it's still showing that the relationship itself can fall victim to the dangers of a story.

So, again, why was the marriage a "mistake"?

[Coal Tiger]

So, the writers hated the marriage.

They kept trying to end it.

The fans loved the marriage.

Every time the writers tried to kill the marriage, the fans were outraged and the writers had to relent.

Marvel killed the marriage this time.

The fans were outraged.

Marvel decided to say "Eff you all! WE don't like the marriage, and we're keeping it gone!"

Marvel is in the customer service business.

Their customers want the marriage.

Marvel is refusing to service their customers.

Conclusion? Marvel writers are selfish.

No. Marvel is in the business of selling comic books and making movies. Business is good. What customers say they want never mattered. The only thing that matters is what they'll buy. They continue to buy Spider-Man. Customers are either liars or they have no self-control. They should never be trusted.

[Vanguard-01]

No. Marvel is in the business of selling comic books and making movies. Business is good. What customers say they want never mattered. The only thing that matters is what they'll buy. They continue to buy Spider-Man. Customers are either liars or they have no self-control. They should never be trusted.

Business was "good" with the marriage in place.

Ending the marriage didn't increase or decrease business in any long-term way.

Clearly the marriage was no obstacle to "good business.'

Thus? It was ended only due to the selfishness of Marvel's current regime.

[Coal Tiger]

Business was "good" with the marriage in place.

Ending the marriage didn't increase or decrease business in any long-term way.

Clearly the marriage was no obstacle to "good business.'

Thus? It was ended only due to the selfishness of Marvel's current regime.

If you want to call it selfishness, that's fine. It's people who tell the stories, telling the stories they want to tell. It's not a democracy, you don't get a vote. It's equally selfish to demand the marriage be restored just because you like it better that way. No one has any moral high ground here.

[Vanguard-01]

If you want to call it selfishness, that's fine. It's people who tell the stories, telling the stories they want to tell. It's not a democracy, you don't get a vote. It's equally selfish to demand the marriage be restored just because you like it better that way. No one has any moral high ground here.

At least I don't try to CLAIM a moral high ground here. Quesada will still give you this big speech about how ending the marriage was "the best thing for Spider-Man." Despite the fact that there is no empirical evidence to support that whatsoever.

Quesada claims his selfishness was noble and in the best interests of the character. He's verifiably incorrect. I say that I want the marriage back because Spider-Man was actually READABLE to me before the marriage was destroyed.

Do I have the moral high ground? No. Am I more honest and less willing to resort to false self-righteousness in order to justify my selfishness? Yep.

Can Quesada say the same? Nope.

[emac1790]

What I don't get is the people saying because of OMD, they will never read or buy Spider-Man again. Maybe it's just me, but every bit of entertainment I have every followed (Movies, music, comics, TV shows, books, etc) had at least one bad thing I didn't like (a bad storyline, a bad song on an album, etc). If I were to drop everything that had something I didn't agree with, I would have a life with no entertainment.

It can get better, though. At the very least, give it a chance. To miss out on something that may appeal to you because of a story that is almost 10 years old, is a little silly.

Would I like OMD to be undone? I'll submit a write in answer. I don't care, just give me good stories and let's stop living in the past.

[Vanguard-01]

What I don't get is the people saying because of OMD, they will never read or buy Spider-Man again. Maybe it's just me, but every bit of entertainment I have every followed (Movies, music, comics, TV shows, books, etc) had at least one bad thing I didn't like (a bad storyline, a bad song on an album, etc). If I were to drop everything that had something I didn't agree with, I would have a life with no entertainment.

It can get better, though. At the very least, give it a chance. To miss out on something that may appeal to you because of a story that is almost 10 years old, is a little silly.

Would I like OMD to be undone? I'll submit a write in answer. I don't care, just give me good stories and let's stop living in the past.

I have kept track of every Spider-Man story that's come out since OMD on Comicvine and other sources.

Not one of them appealed to me in any meaningful way.

I don't like Joe Quesada's Spider-Man and I won't support anything containing him until he's gone.

[Coal Tiger]

At least I don't try to CLAIM a moral high ground here. Quesada will still give you this big speech about how ending the marriage was "the best thing for Spider-Man." Despite the fact that there is no empirical evidence to support that whatsoever.

Quesada claims his selfishness was noble and in the best interests of the character. He's verifiably incorrect. I say that I want the marriage back because Spider-Man was actually READABLE to me before the marriage was destroyed.

Do I have the moral high ground? No. Am I more honest and less willing to resort to false self-righteousness in order to justify my selfishness? Yep.

Can Quesada say the same? Nope.

You listed the empirical evidence yourself. Different regimes kept trying to undo the marriage. Generations of writers and creative teams hated the marriage. The storytellers opinions are the only ones that matter since they are the ones tasked with keeping the character relevant and viable. Readers have established that what they say they want never matters because they always end up buying the comic no matter how they feel. If generations of people who tell the stories want a single Spider-Man, it is then in the best interests of the character for him to be single, especially since nearly every single piece of spider-man media intended for general audiences has him never married. Seriously. 5 movies and 4 animated series featured an unmarried Spider-Man. Writers who have a choice choose to write an unmarried Spider-Man every single time.

[Coal Tiger]

I have kept track of every Spider-Man story that's come out since OMD on Comicvine and other sources.

Not one of them appealed to me in any meaningful way.

I don't like Joe Quesada's Spider-Man and I won't support anything containing him until he's gone.

Have you seen any of the Spider-Man movies? Watched any of the recent Spider-Man cartoons? That's Quesada's vision of Spider-Man too.

[Vanguard-01]

You listed the empirical evidence yourself. Different regimes kept trying to undo the marriage. Generations of writers and creative teams hated the marriage. The storytellers opinions are the only ones that matter since they are the ones tasked with keeping the character relevant and viable. Readers have established that what they say they want never matters because they always end up buying the comic no matter how they feel. If generations of people who tell the stories want a single Spider-Man, it is then in the best interests of the character for him to be single, especially since nearly every single piece of spider-man media intended for general audiences has him never married. Seriously. 5 movies and 4 animated series featured an unmarried Spider-Man. Writers who have a choice choose to write an unmarried Spider-Man every single time.

The character was still "relevant and viable." Marriage or no marriage. Only one of those choices, however, actually alienates a bunch of loyal readers. They made their choice. I've made mine.

Ending the marriage is only in the best interests of the character if the marriage was actually harming the character. Sales figures say that it was NOT doing so at all. Hence? Getting rid of the marriage is not in the character's best interests. It's in the current regime's personal interests.

If you're a writer and you don't want to write a married Spider-Man? Then come up with a reason why MJ is not in the picture for the duration of your arc. Have Spider-Man do some adventuring outside New York. Have him go off-world. Have MJ be really busy with her work and just not appearing in the story in any meaningful way.

Failing that? Then maybe you just aren't the right writer to be writing Spider-Man. No shame in that. Tell Marvel they should pick a writer who IS creative enough to work with a married Spider-Man.

[Vanguard-01]

Have you seen any of the Spider-Man movies? Watched any of the recent Spider-Man cartoons? That's Quesada's vision of Spider-Man too.

Watched the first three movies. 1 and 2 were okay. 3 sucked. Won't go near the cartoons with a ten-foot pole.

After OMD, I stopped reading Spider-Man altogether. Subsequent stories about which I heard only convinced me further that Quesada doesn't want to give me a Spider-Man that's worth reading, so I long decided to stay away from the movies. My Spider-embargo now extends to anything and everything Marvel produces with the word "Spider" in the title.

[emac1790]

I have kept track of every Spider-Man story that's come out since OMD on Comicvine and other sources.

Not one of them appealed to me in any meaningful way.

I don't like Joe Quesada's Spider-Man and I won't support anything containing him until he's gone.

This post sounds very personal. What did Joe do to you, personally?

Reading plot summaries off of Comicvine or elsewhere is not reading the actual books. I've read plot summaries and in many cases they leave things out.

De La Soul is my favorite Hip-Hop group of all time. They made some music that IMO, sucks. I didn't give up on them. I realized 2 things. One, not everyone likes what I like and two, no one bats 1000. Bad (IMO) song or album, fine. Hope the next one is better. But if it's five bad (IMO) albums in a row, it's time to let go.

BTW, it's not "Joe Quesada's Spider-Man". It's Marvel's Spider-Man.

[Coal Tiger]

Watched the first three movies. 1 and 2 were okay. 3 sucked. Won't go near the cartoons with a ten-foot pole.

After OMD, I stopped reading Spider-Man altogether. Subsequent stories about which I heard only convinced me further that Quesada doesn't want to give me a Spider-Man that's worth reading, so I long decided to stay away from the movies. My Spider-embargo now extends to anything and everything Marvel produces with the word "Spider" in the title.

I commend your conviction. Looking at the sales charts, it doesn't look like many other Spider-Man fans feel the same way.

Do you think it's just a coincidence that every writer (film, tv, and comics) who had a choice in the matter, chose to write an unmarried Spider-Man?

[Vanguard-01]

This post sounds very personal. What did Joe do to you, personally?

Crapped on the Spider-Man (and indeed, the Marvel Universe as a whole) that I was enjoying. Nothing more need be done.

Reading plot summaries off of Comicvine or elsewhere is not reading the actual books. I've read plot summaries and in many cases they leave things out.

They give me the gist of the story. That's enough.

De La Soul is my favorite Hip-Hop group of all time. They made some music that IMO, sucks. I didn't give up on them. I realized 2 things. One, not everyone likes what I like and two, no one bats 1000. Bad (IMO) song or album, fine. Hope the next one is better. But if it's five bad (IMO) albums in a row, it's time to let go.

Almost ten years and not a single storyline that even interests me enough to check it out. Sounds to me like it's way past time to give up on Spider-Man.

BTW, it's not "Joe Quesada's Spider-Man". It's Marvel's Spider-Man.

And Marvel is ruled by Joe Quesada. He shapes the current vision of Spider-Man and the Marvel Universe as a whole.

When he leaves, or if these reboot rumors we keep hearing turn out to be true, I'll consider re-evaluating my position. Not before.

Doesn't extend to whining about everything with "spider" in the title though, does it? I commend your conviction. Looking at the sales charts, it doesn't look like many other Spider-Man fans feel the same way.

Do a quick little search of this forum. See how many times I've posted on here.

I'll save you some time: not many. I generally avoid this forum altogether. I've made my choice to not touch anything "Spider"-related, and for the most part, I stay out of discussions about such matters.

I never commented on any of the, say, Superior Spider-Man discussions. Why? Because I didn't read them and anything I would've said on them would've been me talking out of my ass.

This thread is discussing a topic on which I can actually speak from genuine experience. Hence? I decided to speak up.

This is HARDLY me "whining about everything with 'spider' in the title." This is me expressing my opinion on exactly why OMD turned me into a Spider-Man non-fan.

Lots of people don't agree with me? That's fine. I don't let other people decide what I like and don't like, however, so those sales figures mean nothing to me in the long run. I'll just go right on not reading a bunch of stories that don't appeal to me in any way, and keep on hoping that Marvel really is rebooting soon. If they don't? I've lived without Spider-Man for almost ten years now. I see no reason why I can't live without him another ten years.

Do you think it's just a coincidence that every writer (film, tv, and comics) who had a choice in the matter, chose to write an unmarried Spider-Man?

No. They've all written their stuff under Quesada's vision. Not surprisingly, Quesada doesn't let people who don't agree with his vision write Spider-Man.

So, Quesada's cronies continue to further his vision? Big surprise.