Analyzing the Kindred mystery... and it makes no sense

[federicodettofred]

Kindred. The main villain of Nick Spencer's run. The demonic monster who haunted Peter Parker for months because of a mysterious "sin" he committed in the past. In Amazing Spider-Man 50 we discovered that, under his mask, Harry Osborn was trying to ruin Peter's life again. Case closed? Not exactly, because Amazing Spider-Man 73 revealed that Kindred was not one, but two: Sarah and Gabriel Stacy, every Spider-Man fan's most hated memory. Harry (who was actually a AI created before his death) was using their bodies as vessels to haunt Peter and Norman, who sold Harry's soul to Mephisto years before turning himself into the Green Goblin. But here we stumble into a giant problem.

What does Kindred want from Peter and Mary Jane?

Harry and the twins hate Norman for various reasons: he's a psycho that ruined their lives, lied to all of them and sold Harry's soul. So that's clear and simple. But why does Kindred target Peter and MJ? Why does Kindred obsessively talk about a "sin" Peter and MJ committed? So, I went back and read some parts of Spencer's run again, and it still makes no sense to me. Let me know if you can guess what happened here, because I strongly believe Marvel messed with Spencer's plans in the last 10 issues or so, otherwise this really makes no sense.

Amazing Spider-Man 50: Kindred digs up Peter's loved ones' bodies (George and Gwen Stacy, Flash Thompson, Ben Parker) and Norman reveals that Kindred is his son, Harry Osborn.
Amazing Spider-Man 52: Kindred confronts Peter, blaming him for his loved ones' deaths. He also says "all your ghosts live through me" while we see Gwen's skull. Then, he snaps Peter's neck.
Amazing Spider-Man 53: Kindred stands guard as Liz and Normie sleep. Then, we literally see a flashback scene from Brand New Day and Peter looks scared, saying "I remember what day this is". This is the first huge One More Day reference, that ultimately led to nothing. Peter wakes up (how exactly? His neck was snapped, but ok) and witnesses Kindred taking off his mask, revealing Harry's face. He also says "you always knew it was me", so the issue clearly wants us to believe Kindred is Harry and he's doing this because of One More Day and Peter and MJ's deal with Mephisto.
Amazing Spider-Man 54: Unmasked Kindred states "Oh, it's me, Pete. Your old pal, Harry Osborn". After a fight, Peter says "You really had me thinking you were some all-powerful monster, not the same sad, broken child I've had to fight for years!": this is a reference to Kindred being able to appear in nightmares and other mysterious phenomena. Be aware, no explanation will be given for this in the whole run. Kindred also says "I promise you, I'm past all that (issues with Norman). I'm no longer chased by those demons, I am the demon!": this would make you think Kindred's goal is not to hurt Norman, as he also confirms that he is a demonic entity. Then, Kindred kills Peter various times and claims "In hell we're not punished for the sins of others, we're tortured by our own". This is one of the first times Kindred accuses Peter of committing something terrible, but of course he doesn't say what happened. Kindred also states "You tried to bargain and make a deal with the devil": if this is not a clear OMD reference, I don't know what is.
Amazing Spider-Man 55: Kindred's face gets literally destroyed by Peter's web, but nothing happens. Remember that ASM 53 showed us that Kindred's face was just a mask, so how is this possible? Is Kindred a demon or not? Then, we take a trip down memory lane and Kindred remembers that MJ always loved Peter and not him blablabla... This is another clear example of Kindred obviously being Harry and nobody else. At last, the most important part: Peter says "Whatever I did, however I wronged you... I'm sorry. Whatever caused you to turn yourself into this..." and Kindred "Turn myself? You did this to me!", followed by another flashback of Brand New Day. So it is explicitly said: Peter did something (probably related to Brand New Day) which caused Harry to turn into Kindred.
Amazing Spider-Man 56: Kindred gets caged into a dark matter trap. Sounds silly and it is, if he really is a demon.
Amazing Spider-man 57: Spider-Gwen says "Any other decisions you made for our supposed benefit, Peter? Because I'm getting the sense there is a lot you're not telling us". OMD reference #4.
This is where the story visibly starts to shift, and I think that's where Marvel changed Spencer's plans to address One More Day.
Amazing Spider-Man 70: First reference to the Stacy twins: Harry goes back to Norman's Paris house, a holding "with a tortured history of its own". Remember Gwen supposedly gave birth to the twins in Paris.
Amazing Spider-Man 71: Flashback of demonic Harry finding Mysterio in hell. Another confirmation of Kindred's demonic nature. Kindred's monologue about Harry's death in the ambulance confirms once again he is Harry Osborn.
Amazing Spider-Man 72: Norman's deal with Mephisto is revealed. Norman arrives to his house in Paris and he's confronted by AI Harry, who reveals the original Harry uploaded both their minds there (during Legacy of Evil, meh).
Amazing Spider-Man 73: The big plot twist: Kindred is actually Sarah and Gabriel Stacy, two clones created by AI Harry and Mendel Stromm back when Norman was still believed to be dead. AI Harry apparently can control their bodies as vessels and he asked Mysterio to brainwash Norman (once he came back) and MJ to think Gwen gave birth to them, just to mess with Peter and Norman (yeah, not a great explanation honestly). Also, the post-OMD Harry Osborn is another clone and he never came back from the dead. The main focus here is that AI Harry literally speaks through Sarah, so it looks like he can control her (and Gabriel) any time he wants. Also, someone (identity never revealed) cyclically buried Sarah and Gabriel, every time they died because of clone degeneration. But the most important thing of the issue is that Sarah/Harry recalls that Peter saved the twins' lives with his blood transfusion during Sins Past (keep this in mind). Also, Kindred looked like Harry because they used Chameleon's serum (weird for a powerful demon, couldn't he shapeshift?).
Amazing Spider-Man 74: The end. The Kindreds attack Peter and Norman, and suddenly one of them has a female body (not only that, the female one is the brown Kindred, but in the last issue Sarah was the purple one!). Post-OMD Harry attacks the Kindreds (he managed to travel from a cell to his home to wherever the fight is... with no explanation) and explains the truth to Peter: Kindred is a vessel... except that it's not. In this issue the twins clearly speak for themselves, nobody is controlling them like in ASM 73. The Kindreds also say "You'd love that! To ignore us, pretend we don't exist" as the main issue of the whole situation. But they also claim that Norman abandoned them, his children, and used them as weapons... so they don't know they are clones controlled by AI Harry and Mephisto? They even attack Norman after he reveals the truth to them, so how did AI Harry control them in the last issue without them knowing? Mephisto then reveals that Sarah and Gabriel suffered in hell and were sent back to Earth to gain revenge on the one "who failed to save them and wanted only to forget them". Who, Peter? The same guy who saved their lives in Sins Past? Makes no sense at all. After Mephisto's defeated by Strange, the Kindreds die... saying that Mephisto lost! So, they actually knew the truth...? My head hurts.

And this is it. Yeah, I know Mephisto wants to destroy Peter because he saw a future in which his daughter defeats him, but I don't think it's a great explanation for ALL of this. Did you get Kindred's real goal? What was Peter's sin (if not OMD as clearly hinted in the first issues)? Why did the twins hate him? Why did AI Harry hate him? What was the whole point?
If someone can come up with something useful I will be very happy, as a Spider-Man fan! Thanks.

[marhawkman]

We had this thread about it: https://community.cbr.com/showthread...-hit-or-a-miss

One thing that caught my attention... is that, in Sins Past, Pete acted like a father figure to Sarah Stacy, and she was actually happy with that. Also Kindred's first retcon: Sarah and Gabriel died after Sins Past. This is a MAJOR retcon. Sarah was last seen working for Interpol as a rookie recruit. Neither of them was dead. This story STARTS by messing up the background of the setting. The ending of Sins Past was about Pete making sure that Sarah and Gabriel would have a chance to live normal productive lives.... and this just kills them off-panel.... as backstory lore.... not even DURING the story.

But yeah... really confusing. I think it's just sort of... several broken stories merged together? Kind of like if you have a basic story concept, write three versions of it... and only publish one out of every third issue of them. Like if some issues are plan A, some issues are plan B, and some are neither? I don't think we'll ever makes sense of it just reading the books.

[your_name_here]

The original idea was clearly Harry, fresh from hell, somehow reborn due to some after-effect of OMD.

Spencer himself explained in an interview (I can’t remember when or where) that this run was about addressing a lot of Peters past mistakes and taking responsibility for them. Either editorial got cold feet, or got mad that Spencer was leaving - or who knows what happened, but they, quite frankly, **** all over what could’ve been a great story that finally removed the biggest elephant in the room that shadows over the whole franchise.

[Vortex85]

Yeah, whatever happened to the story with this run is extremely disappointing. It feels like Spencer's plans in Last Remains were altered significantly with the finale. As someone who collected the whole run and bought every issue I feel robbed based on the inconsistencies and plot holes that the last arc brought to the table. I can't imagine this was where Spencer was headed and if it was there was a huge fumble as far as basic storytelling goes.

I don't know how Marvel can allow these glaring problems in their book but to me it just says that someone in charge doesn't care about good storytelling.

[Kanos]

If Spencer wanted to make Harry Kindred, then I'm glad Marvel stepped in. It's a stupid idea, it destroys SSM #200 and all the way Harry traveled in BND-ASM #800. But I don't think that's true, I'm sure the Kindred have always been twins.

[PCN24454]

If Spencer wanted to make Harry Kindred, then I'm glad Marvel stepped in. It's a stupid idea, it destroys SSM #200 and all the way Harry traveled in BND-ASM #800. But I don't think that's true, I'm sure the Kindred have always been twins.

While I hate Harry being Kindred for the same reasons, reintroducing the Stacy Twins felt even more contrived.

[Kanos]

While I hate Harry being Kindred for the same reasons, reintroducing the Stacy Twins felt even more contrived.

I agree with you, but I wanted Gabriel to be Kindred. The real Gabriel, not the AI ​​Harry/Norman/Mephisto. When the Kindred came to Norman-Cletus, he thought it was Harry. Kindred said that Norman thought he knew the Kindred's secret identity, it appears that Norman was wrong, which angered the Kindred (ASM #37). Gabriel has always hated and envied Harry, so it was clear that he wanted revenge. I thought that Mysterio could be one of the villains, and the whole story with the demon Harry is part of his script. In my opinion, it would be more interesting, because what Spencer did destroyed the Kindred.

[marhawkman]

While I hate Harry being Kindred for the same reasons, reintroducing the Stacy Twins felt even more contrived.

Especially since they KILL THEM OF PANEL, THEN revive them! They weren't DEAD!!!!

I agree with you, but I wanted Gabriel to be Kindred. The real Gabriel, not the AI ​​Harry/Norman/Mephisto. When the Kindred came to Norman-Cletus, he thought it was Harry. Kindred said that Norman thought he knew the Kindred's secret identity, it appears that Norman was wrong, which angered the Kindred (ASM #37). Gabriel has always hated and envied Harry, so it was clear that he wanted revenge. I thought that Mysterio could be one of the villains, and the whole story with the demon Harry is part of his script. In my opinion, it would be more interesting, because what Spencer did destroyed the Kindred.

Yeah, Gabriel kinda makes sense. Sarah? no. Sarah had no reason to hate Pete.

[Kanos]

Especially since they KILL THEM OF PANEL, THEN revive them! They weren't DEAD!!!!
Yeah, Gabriel kinda makes sense. Sarah? no. Sarah had no reason to hate Pete.

I agree, she was a friend of Peter and Mary Jane. She even called Peter brother. But now she comes to him in his dreams and wants to kill him, lol.

[exile001]

I find it funny that Spencer hated Gabriel and Sarah's existence enough to wrap a 70+ issue run around it. Like, they so need to be removed that they must be the center of a mega arc makes no sense to me.

Personally, if I were so determined to remove them I'd have just written an issue or two Jackal story where he offhandedly mentions them as clones and that he used one of his post-hypnotic suggestions to **** with the people who got Gwen killed.

Or better yet, have nobody ever mention it again save for a single note from the editor in the back of ASM saying "yeah, Secret Wars changed a few things in continuity and the Gabriel/Sarah stuff didn't happen."

However, to give Spencer credit it is very funny conceptually (and I do believe this was intentional) that he felt Harry's resurrection was such an affront that it needed to be completely undone by revealing the returned "Harry" as a clone, but he also did the same thing himself with Kraven.

[Kanos]

I find it funny that Spencer hated Gabriel and Sarah's existence enough to wrap a 70+ issue run around it. Like, they so need to be removed that they must be the center of a mega arc makes no sense to me.

Personally, if I were so determined to remove them I'd have just written an issue or two Jackal story where he offhandedly mentions them as clones and that he used one of his post-hypnotic suggestions to **** with the people who got Gwen killed.

Or better yet, have nobody ever mention it again save for a single note from the editor in the back of ASM saying "yeah, Secret Wars changed a few things in continuity and the Gabriel/Sarah stuff didn't happen."

However, to give Spencer credit it is very funny conceptually (and I do believe this was intentional) that he felt Harry's resurrection was such an affront that it needed to be completely undone by revealing the returned "Harry" as a clone, but he also did the same thing himself with Kraven.

BND Harry can't be a different person like Kraven's son, it's the same Harry but in a new body like Billy Connors or Ben Reilly. This is confirmed in the story:
1) Mephisto talks about Harry's soul and we are shown his whole life - ASM #72
2) Osborn AI says that Sarah and Gabriel are clones, not Norman's children and that he has one son (doesn't make sense if BND Harry is different person) - ASM #73
3) He sees demons - ASM #74
4) ASM #74 started out with Harry not telling Peter about his "gifts" but now he can. If it's a different person, the story won't work
5) Strange and Mephisto don't say there are two different Harrys
6) Norman talks to BND Harry as if it were OG Harry. Doesn't make sense if it's a different person.
I even doubt that he is a clone. Only he and Sarah said it. How did he know? And how did she know? I don't trust Sarah/AI Harry/AI Norman/Mephisto, they are the most unreliable source of information. Don't forget that BND Harry was grown in the same lab as Gabriel and Sarah, but he didn't suffer from cellular degeneration or even turn into "sand" when he died. The front page of ASM #75 says that BND Harry is Peter's college friend, but that doesn't make sense either, since he didn't even go to college. Another argument that BND Harry doesn't exist, he is OG Harry. I don't know what Spencer wanted, but it's weird.

[exile001]

My point was that he re-killed Kraven to "correct" that never should have been resurrected, but replaced him with an identical clone. But he then killed off BND Harry, who he revealed was an identical clone (the Harry who returned at the party and had been in Europe for years recovering, was Peter's friend again and even helped run Parker Industries), to "correct" that Harry should never have come back.

That's funny.

AI/Demon/Kindred Harry was a completely separate entity (or entities).

[federicodettofred]

I find it funny that Spencer hated Gabriel and Sarah's existence enough to wrap a 70+ issue run around it. Like, they so need to be removed that they must be the center of a mega arc makes no sense to me.

Personally, if I were so determined to remove them I'd have just written an issue or two Jackal story where he offhandedly mentions them as clones and that he used one of his post-hypnotic suggestions to **** with the people who got Gwen killed.

Or better yet, have nobody ever mention it again save for a single note from the editor in the back of ASM saying "yeah, Secret Wars changed a few things in continuity and the Gabriel/Sarah stuff didn't happen."

However, to give Spencer credit it is very funny conceptually (and I do believe this was intentional) that he felt Harry's resurrection was such an affront that it needed to be completely undone by revealing the returned "Harry" as a clone, but he also did the same thing himself with Kraven.

To me the fact that he retconned the Norman/Gwen affair was great, but that was it. Like, there was nothing else after even if he clearly teased a OMD address or retcon. That made no sense and reading all those issues again confirmed it.

[IamnotJudasTraveller]

I read someone elsewhere claim Secret Empire also wrapped with some loose ends and setups that didn't pay off in the ultimate story - but since I wasn't reading any of these, I can't verify how truthful the claim is. But, provided it is, it'd maybe add some perspective to the Kindred thing - or just muddle the waters even further, since all we have to go on is speculation as no parties have stepped forward to say just what actually happened.

[Crazyspideyfan]

They also change which Kindred is Gabriel and which one is Sarah in issue 74 twice. I get that’s the problem with having so many artists on one issue, but now I genuinely don’t know which Kindred is supposed to be who.