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  1. #121
    The Fastest Post Alive! Buried Alien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    An argument could be made to never have heroes in the first place.
    Human beings aren't wired that way, and if we were, the human experience would be a miserable one indeed.

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  2. #122

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    It's human nature to form connections. It's how we foster that connection that matters and the lengths we go to maintain it is the problem.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buried Alien View Post
    Human beings aren't wired that way, and if we were, the human experience would be a miserable one indeed.

    Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
    I doubt it.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    It's human nature to form connections. It's how we foster that connection that matters and the lengths we go to maintain it is the problem.
    Sorry, I'm not sure how this relates to the discussion here.

  5. #125
    Mighty Member Goldrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daredevil1 View Post
    Ray Fisher is insane and needs to go away. I could easily see Whedon just not kissing his ass and being rude to him, but even from what he describes Hamada and Johns did him no wrong. They tried to diffuse the situation and he turns it into "a cover-up conspiracy!" One of those dudes with nothing going on so he needs to burn all his bridges and claim discrimination. He's so stupid that he doesn't realize if he had said nothing, he might have gotten to hang on to the Cyborg role. If WB was already inclined against making a Justice League 2/3, they for sure are never going to now.
    Basically he accuses Johns of being a racist because he disagreed that Cyborg had a willy. He also says that Johns enabled Joss because he told him to talk to Joss when he is most receptive.
    Therefore anyone who deals with a boss and the secretary tells you to call when he is in a good mood, the secretary is an enabler?

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightning Rider View Post
    Even if we don't find Fisher credible at all, his worst crimes don't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath as Whedon's.
    But Fisher kept going after folks who had nothing to do with this. It's one thing to go after those who DID something to you but to go after folks who were not even working at the company is another.

    Yeah Wheldon is a mess but as we all know SOMEONE is going to find him work. We got folks who have murder folks or worst that somehow still find work.

    Fisher is the one that is about to get the nasty reality check like Abar Rouse did. And Rouse exposed the mess Baylor was doing. Only to be black listed and badmouth by certain college basketball coaches including the one at Duke.

  7. #127
    Mighty Member Goldrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    But Fisher kept going after folks who had nothing to do with this. It's one thing to go after those who DID something to you but to go after folks who were not even working at the company is another.

    Yeah Wheldon is a mess but as we all know SOMEONE is going to find him work. We got folks who have murder folks or worst that somehow still find work.

    Fisher is the one that is about to get the nasty reality check like Abar Rouse did. And Rouse exposed the mess Baylor was doing. Only to be black listed and badmouth by certain college basketball coaches including the one at Duke.
    What annoys me with Fisher is not what he said about Whedon who is a scumbag, but the accusations towards people he claims enabled Joss because they advised to talk to him when he is in a good mood. Or calling racist someone because he had a different view on Cyborg private parts. That is the problem with people like Ray, if you disagree with them you are not entitled to a different opinion, but you are a racist.

  8. #128
    Ultimate Member Holt's Avatar
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    Eh. The situation might be a bit murkier, but Cyborg being castrated has been a thing that's been commented on as suspect for years now. It's absolutely something that I doubt Johns would've thought about because he's not black. Now I don't think that makes him a racist, but I do think a black man bringing up why that's kind of fucked up and being dismissed is the type of thing that probably was not gonna end well.

  9. #129
    Mighty Member Goldrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holt View Post
    Eh. The situation might be a bit murkier, but Cyborg being castrated has been a thing that's been commented on as suspect for years now. It's absolutely something that I doubt Johns would've thought about because he's not black. Now I don't think that makes him a racist, but I do think a black man bringing up why that's kind of fucked up and being dismissed is the type of thing that probably was not gonna end well.
    If there are some people who make a fuss of Cyborg being castrated or not, sorry to say it is weird. No wonder in the USA things are so messed up, if petty things like this are such an issue. Ridiculous.
    SO for Ray if Cyborg was white, Latino or Asian and castrated it was Ok?

    BTW - I never read after the movie anyone black or white making an issue if Cyborg had a willy or not.

  10. #130
    Ultimate Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldrake View Post
    What annoys me with Fisher is not what he said about Whedon who is a scumbag, but the accusations towards people he claims enabled Joss because they advised to talk to him when he is in a good mood. Or calling racist someone because he had a different view on Cyborg private parts. That is the problem with people like Ray, if you disagree with them you are not entitled to a different opinion, but you are a racist.
    His issue with Johns is the "angry black man" thing. He's clearly more concerned with Johns' supposed take on that stereotype, rather than Cyborg's physical condition specifically. And because of that he sees Johns as someone who was against having a black character as the central character of the movie, therefore to him Johns is racist. Read THR article again, particularly the Quasimodo part, where Fisher as well as the author that clearly wanted to paint Johns as a racist, by describing him "taking a servile posture" in front of Fisher who "didn't want his character to be compared to a cathedral cleaning individual". Lots of "servitude" references there. She didn't even try to be subtle(though the Rege-Jean Page thing seemed far more damaging to me than Ray's claims or what Nadria Tucker said about Johns supposedly having an issue with a black actress' hairdo on Krypton due to continuity reasons).

    And look, maybe Johns could indeed be ignorant about that subject. Maybe he thinks that because he is from Detroit or had a black wife before that he knows more about black people's experience than your average non-black person does. And Fisher may have seen that as Johns just being another presumptuous white man(or white passing man) who thinks he gets to decide how the black community would perceive something and ignoring the input of the only black actor in the main JL cast. All those things combined with Johns telling him that contacting the head of the studio about Whedon's behaviour isn't how things work in Hollywood, which Fisher took as a direct threat to his career, and here we are.

    Not sure what must be done on Johns' part though. He will obviously never take Fisher to court for this since defamation cases are a pain in the ass and Johns can only really achieve something if he can show that he sustained financial damages from Fisher's comments. So Ray will just keep tweeting about him and Johns will keep his job on the producing side and get the occasional DC miniseries gig, until Kim Masters decides to write another hit piece on him.
    Last edited by Johnny; 01-23-2022 at 04:00 PM.

  11. #131
    Ultimate Member Holt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldrake View Post
    If there are some people who make a fuss of Cyborg being castrated or not, sorry to say it is weird. No wonder in the USA things are so messed up, if petty things like this are such an issue. Ridiculous.
    SO for Ray if Cyborg was white, Latino or Asian and castrated it was Ok?

    BTW - I never read after the movie anyone black or white making an issue if Cyborg had a willy or not.

    There's an entire racial history regarding the castration of black men in the U.S. that there isn't simply for white people, so yes, it's entirely possible. If that's not an issue for you, whatever, but if a black actor says they're made uncomfortable by the implications of the one black dude on the team having his dick blown off, he's well within his right to criticize.

  12. #132
    Mighty Member Goldrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    His issue with Johns is the "angry black man" thing. He's clearly more concerned with Johns' supposed take on that stereotype, rather than Cyborg's physical condition specifically. And because of that he sees Johns as someone who was against having a black character as the central character of the movie, therefore to him Johns is racist. Read THR article again, particularly the Quasimodo part, where Fisher as well as the author that clearly wanted to paint Johns as a racist, by describing him "taking a servile posture" in front of Fisher who "didn't want his character to be compared to a cathedral cleaning individual". Lots of "servitude" references there. She didn't even try to be subtle(though the Rege-Jean Page thing seemed far more damaging to me than Ray's claims or what Nadria Tucker said about Johns supposedly having an issue with a black actress' hairdo on Krypton due to continuity reasons).

    And look, maybe Johns could indeed be ignorant about that subject. Maybe he thinks that because he is from Detroit or had a black wife before that he knows more about black people's experience than your average non-black person does. And Fisher may have seen that as Johns just being another presumptuous white man(or white passing man) who thinks he gets to decide how black people would receive something and ignoring the input of the only black man in the main JL cast. All those things combined with Johns telling him that contacting the head of the studio about Whedon isn't how it works in Hollywood, which Fisher took as a a threat to his career, and here we are.

    Not sure what must be done on Johns' part though. He will obviously not take Fisher to court about this because defamation cases are a pain in the ass and Johns can only really achieve something if he shows that he sustained financial damages from Fisher's comments. So Ray will just keep tweeting about him and Johns will keep his job on the producing side and get the occasional DC miniseries gig, until Kim Masters decides to write another hit piece on him.
    What I read is that WB has instructed Johns not to do anything nor speak about it. What is ridiculous is that Ray wanted to lecture about how comic characters ought to be, to one of the greatest writers in the last 20 years. Ironically when Geoff was pushing for Cyborg to be in JL, Ray had no idea who cyborg was. However I don't believe all this was because of racism, it was more because Ray saw in Geoff an enemy of snyder.
    Whedon was right in a very small part in that interview, that he was attacked on the internet from day one, long before allegations came out, in the name of someone, that someone was Snyder.

    As for the reasons Rays gives about Johns they are pathetic, I expected him to say Geoff used the word N***** towards him. When what he says, is at most two people with different opinions.
    That said, within few years Ray will be forgotten if he does not move on. WB has already showed they are not interested in having cyborg in any movie. Johns is still involved in many projects, the fact that they went to him to do a Flashpoint says a lot. Sounded like giving Ray the middle finger.

    Quote Originally Posted by Holt View Post
    There's an entire racial history regarding the castration of black men in the U.S. that there isn't simply for white people, so yes, it's entirely possible. If that's not an issue for you, whatever, but if a black actor says they're made uncomfortable by the implications of the one black dude on the team having his dick blown off, he's well within his right to criticize.
    Its comics mate, fantasy world, part human part machines don't exist.
    BTW - white, middle eastern, latino slaves have been castrated as well throughout history. Romans, Persians, Turks, arabs all did that. It is not something peculiar to the U.S. Until the 19th century white slavery was common in Barbary states that is north Africa.
    Last edited by Goldrake; 01-23-2022 at 04:09 PM.

  13. #133
    Ultimate Member Holt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldrake View Post



    Its comics mate, fantasy world, part human part machines don't exist.
    Neither do mutants. Real world topics are reflected in sci-fi and fantasy all the time.

    BTW - white, middle eastern, latino slaves have been castrated as well throughout history. Romans, Persians, Turks, arabs all did that.
    Neat trivia I guess.

  14. #134
    DC/Collected Editions Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    The problem is, whomever is in charge in the future, he or she is going to get grief from Ray if he's not allowed to portray Cyborg again. I think most people understand this now, too.
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  15. #135
    Mighty Member Goldrake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holt View Post
    Neither do mutants. Real world topics are reflected in sci-fi and fantasy all the time.



    Neat trivia I guess.
    Millions of Europeans ended slaves in the Barbary states, women in harems, men as eunuchs. Millions of arabs also ended slaves of europeans.
    The first foreign war of the U.S. was against the Barbary states, one of the reasons was americans being captured as slaves.
    Last edited by Goldrake; 01-23-2022 at 04:23 PM.

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