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  1. #31
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    Wasn't Superman # 200 (of the rebooted series, not the original one) meant to explain the soft-reboot? IIRC, it shows three Superman origins (Pre-Crisis, Byrne and Birthright) and ends with the Birthright version being asserted as the dominant timeline. Later on of course, they use Alex Luthor punching the walls of the pocket universe as the cause for a host of Post-Crisis continuity changes, including the switch from MOS to Birthright.

    I love Birthright for modernizing Superman's origins while respecting and restoring Golden Age/Silver Age ideas - a template that DC has, for better or worse, followed for many other characters and arguably their entire universe since then. I think it's lasting contribution was the idea of the S symbol being a symbol of hope, which is now more or less cemented as canon across the board.

    Unfortunately, Birthright was also the start of the never-ending reboot of Superman's origin that has never really stopped. In the 18 years since Birthright ended (and it ended 18 years after MOS...go figure!) we've had Secret Origins, the New 52, and whatever the current post-Reborn version is (that I guess is mostly Secret Origins?) which has also flip-flopped a bit on elements such as whether the Kent's are alive or dead and whether Clark knew the LOSH.

  2. #32
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    On one hand i can see why there was a move to bring in some preCrisis elements back in to the continuity. For instance I think the strict "no Kryptonians other than Kal-El" rule that had been in place had a purpose for the first decade or so of the new continuity. However, by 15 years into it , it was clear that that rule had kind of ran its course and writers wanted to use concepts like Zod and the Phantom Zone that were closer to their classic versions. The Byrne origin was starting to show its age and I understand it was time to tweak things where there needed to be tweaked. However as per the case with DC instead of a careful pruning and maintenance, DC editorial decided to use a chainsaw to make the changes then attempted to weld the incongruous pieces together so nothing really made sense anymore. And it was decided to build upon that as the new foundation....and the results of that are still.a big reason why Superman is what it is today for better or worse.
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  3. #33
    Astonishing Member The Frog Bros's Avatar
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    I very much like Birthright overall. While I think continuity is certainly important, I do not think it is the be all/end all factor in what makes a good story. Having said that, it does come off as a well crafted story, for the most part.

    One thing I do like, in addition to establishing Clark being worldly as a young adult, is the explanation of why he's a vegetarian. Its not something I ever thought of in and of itself, but the "why" fits nicely with his ethos overall. Specifically, him being able to see the living (or dying) aura of every living being/thing.

    I could take or leave Lex knowing Clark in Smallville, but what I do like about that subplot is the characterization of Lex on the whole.

    I would also agree that the climax is not really all that great, but what it may lack in execution is made up for by the characterization of the conflict between Clark and Lex overall.

    I also like it much better than SO, which I think is pretty bland. I find the blandness a result of trying to make it a "greatest hits" origin. In that way, it feels less of a single coherent story than Birthright and more like a bunch of vignettes strung together.

    As for what went wrong, it sure sounds like there was a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes editorial wise and they weren't fully behind it and moved in other directions pretty quickly (perhaps abandoned is a better word?). But yeah, it also sounds like synergy with other media played a part as well.
    “Look, you can’t put the Superman #77s with the #200s. They haven’t even discovered Red Kryptonite yet. And you can’t put the #98s with the #300s, Lori Lemaris hasn’t even been introduced.” — Sam
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  4. #34
    Extraordinary Member HsssH's Avatar
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    I didn't really pay attention to these things back then so maybe I'm asking stupid question here - was Smallville that big of a hit that DC wanted to write around that show? As I understand some origin changes were done because Smallvile did it and Brainiac wasn't the villain because it looked like Smallville was going to do similar story? Looking back from today's perspective that show looks kinda irrelevant.

  5. #35
    Amazing Member Alkaeus's Avatar
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    When did Waid say that Brainiac/the ship computer was going to be the villain? In an interview somewhere?

    And for what it's worth I like Birthright a lot (probably tied with Grant Morrison's Action run for my preferred "early days" Superman take), and I'm not sure it's fair to the creators or even the story itself that it was the subject of editorial ping-pong.
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  6. #36
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    I didn't really pay attention to these things back then so maybe I'm asking stupid question here - was Smallville that big of a hit that DC wanted to write around that show? As I understand some origin changes were done because Smallvile did it and Brainiac wasn't the villain because it looked like Smallville was going to do similar story? Looking back from today's perspective that show looks kinda irrelevant.
    Smallville was huge dude. It basically gave rise to the Arrowverse.
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  7. #37
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    I hadn't heard that. Where did Waid mention this? He's always a good interview
    A podcast, go check out the thread made when the Waid/Hitch BL project was announced. Think I linked it there. If not I don’t remember where but Waid has been consistently hinting that he’ll be returning to the Birthrightverse. I think we may get an official announcement this week.
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  8. #38
    Jax City/Kill The FIremen
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    Correct me if I am wrong, but Birthright was originally going to be an elseworld. However, it was changed to a canon origin. I think this is another example of Didio's belief that the most important stories should happen in the mainline and not elseworlds. Now, I have nothing against the idea, but seeing how SBR got shafted and Supes didn't have any clear origins until SO.

  9. #39
    Extraordinary Member HsssH's Avatar
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    Wasn't Levitz still in charge back then? I know that Didio was the editor, but Birthright was really the first attempt at giving Superman new origins since MoS so I figure that such decision had to be green lit by the guy in charge, no?

  10. #40
    Golux Kurt Busiek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    What's funny is that in a backup of the 52 series Kurt Busiek actually includes a two-page origin for Luthor which also refers to Smallville, but is very different from Birthright, and was never mentioned again (it was supposed to be used in a Busiek miniseries which never happened).
    You may be thinking of one in COUNTDOWN, but I think someone else wrote that.

    I think I wrote some 2-page origin, but the GCD doesn't list it, whatever it was.

    We did have plans for a set of Superman origin minis, covering Krypton, Smallville and early days in Metropolis, and I had Luthor in Smallville planned for that -- and his little sister Lena -- but DC couldn't manage to approve anything about te origin back then, not even a design for Kal's spacecraft. So it never actually happened.

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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Busiek View Post
    You may be thinking of one in COUNTDOWN, but I think someone else wrote that.

    I think I wrote some 2-page origin, but the GCD doesn't list it, whatever it was.

    We did have plans for a set of Superman origin minis, covering Krypton, Smallville and early days in Metropolis, and I had Luthor in Smallville planned for that -- and his little sister Lena -- but DC couldn't manage to approve anything about te origin back then, not even a design for Kal's spacecraft. So it never actually happened.

    kdb
    The story I had in mind was a two-page back-up of Luthor's origin with some variations on the classic theme (Lex son of two Metropolis socialites, moves to Smallville to live with his aunt Lena). The artist was Andy Clarke and yes - it appeared in Countdown to Final Crisis 34 - not in 52 as I originally thought. I think that it would pave the way for a Luthor mini whose title was supposed to be Luthor: Strange Visitor. Love your work, by the way.
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    I'm kinda surprised Snyder didn't want Superman to watch Lois and Bruce conceive their love child. All the while singing the "Na na na na na na Batman!" theme song - Robotman, 03/06/2021

  12. #42
    Extraordinary Member superduperman's Avatar
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    I think if it had followed some sort of Crisis type event, fans might have been more accepting of it but that's clearly not what happened. One day the Byrne origin was canon and the next day this was. With no explanation. I get them wanting to cash in on Smallville and the Byrne origin wasn't conducive to that, but you have to do it organically. Do a storyline that explains the changes. This just goes to show the mismanagement that was rampant in those days and how one hand didn't know what the other hand was doing.
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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    Wasn't Levitz still in charge back then? I know that Didio was the editor, but Birthright was really the first attempt at giving Superman new origins since MoS so I figure that such decision had to be green lit by the guy in charge, no?
    You're right, but I think Didio pushed the idea. I recall reading somewhere, probably a CBR article, that he was the one to push for Batman: Hush to be in mainline rather than elseworld. Which is why Jim Lee did the art, to really make it important.

  14. #44
    Extraordinary Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Busiek View Post
    You may be thinking of one in COUNTDOWN, but I think someone else wrote that.

    I think I wrote some 2-page origin, but the GCD doesn't list it, whatever it was.

    We did have plans for a set of Superman origin minis, covering Krypton, Smallville and early days in Metropolis, and I had Luthor in Smallville planned for that -- and his little sister Lena -- but DC couldn't manage to approve anything about te origin back then, not even a design for Kal's spacecraft. So it never actually happened.

    kdb
    I'm curious, what were you guys told about this? Were you told this was to be his new origin? Did everyone just sit down and hash out how it was going to work? Did management just come in and say one day "This is his new origin and you have to work around it"?
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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    I didn't really pay attention to these things back then so maybe I'm asking stupid question here - was Smallville that big of a hit that DC wanted to write around that show? As I understand some origin changes were done because Smallvile did it and Brainiac wasn't the villain because it looked like Smallville was going to do similar story? Looking back from today's perspective that show looks kinda irrelevant.
    This is actually a strange thing I have been wondering about for some time myself. On the one hand, when the show was still on, it was quite popular and recognizable - also, it went on for 10 years or so, so it must have been a success at least to a degree. On the other hand, any memory of it has basically faded away.
    I think that these examples of pop culture may even be very popular while they are still on, but they are equally quick to be forgotten and replaced by other works of pop culture. It's very perishable material, so to speak. No matter how long they last - they don't have the same impact shows of superior quality generally have (I am thinking of The Sopranos) and they don't even become cult series or movies as other works of pop culture sometimes do. Maybe it is because of the target audience. They are aimed very specifically at teenagers/young adults, so they include the music and themes and ideas young people have at that specific moment, but it's generally stuff which becomes dated very quickly. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if an average Smallville viewer, in retrospect, looked at the series with some fondness but even recognizing how silly or campy it was. I am 100% sure that the same will happen with the whole Arrowverse, or Superman and Lois.

    But yes, the original plot was that Brainiac was actually a creation of Jor-El (it would appear as a floating hologram of Jor-El's face) and the climax would have involved the Brainiac AI going crazy and trying to destroy the world. There is a similar plot point in Smallville, so they canned it.
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

    I'm kinda surprised Snyder didn't want Superman to watch Lois and Bruce conceive their love child. All the while singing the "Na na na na na na Batman!" theme song - Robotman, 03/06/2021

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