Page 1 of 5 12345 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 67
  1. #1
    Extraordinary Member superduperman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Metropolis USA
    Posts
    6,218

    Default What went wrong with Birthright?

    I recently considered re-reading Birthright but I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, it's probably the best comic origin he's ever had. On the other hand, all of the mess surrounding it makes it hard to enjoy. Why do you think it didn't work out?
    #RestoretheDonnerverse

  2. #2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    I recently considered re-reading Birthright but I have mixed feelings about it. On the one hand, it's probably the best comic origin he's ever had. On the other hand, all of the mess surrounding it makes it hard to enjoy. Why do you think it didn't work out?
    I thought it was fine as Superman early days go.

  3. #3
    Astonishing Member LordUltimus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Posts
    3,673

    Default

    What mess was going on?

  4. #4
    Extraordinary Member superduperman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Metropolis USA
    Posts
    6,218

    Default

    They tried to make it the "official" origin of Superman without telling anyone they were going to do that. When fans of the Byrne origin found out, they weren't happy. It also didn't work in terms of the timeline. So eventually they just tried to split the difference until Johns SO came along. The 2004-2006 timeline was a trainwreck.
    #RestoretheDonnerverse

  5. #5
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    16,486

    Default

    I don’t particularly care that the Byrne fanboys were upset, Superman needed an origin update at that point. But Didio shouldn’t have flip flopped like he did, either commit to it or let it be a stand-alone take outside of continuity.
    For when my rants on the forums just arenít enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

  6. #6
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,591

    Default

    To me this is my origin for Supes, it was modernized and the themes fit. The only thing I didn't like is the linking of Lex to Clark via Smallville that was pretty hackneyed, but the show was super popular then.

  7. #7
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,412

    Default

    Ok, here we go again. Long story short, there were two main problems with Birthright - its presentation and the purpose it was created for.
    The latter is still a debated topic among readers - it is likely that DC (I think that it was Didio in charge or about to become the boss) wanted a "Ultimate Superman" series set in its own continuity or possibly a Superman relaunch which could be used in a movie adaptation. Nothing was ever confirmed. What happened is that the story was introduced as a Superman reboot, but many readers perceived it as a forcing instead of a new, well-built, coherent origin. There hadn't been any in-story reason for Birthright to become the new origin (no Crisis or anything like that) - it was, well, just "there" all of a sudden.
    In those days the only, official origin was the Post-Crisis one. So basically we had this fine (not astounding) miniseries which openly contradicted what was happening in current continuity while post-Crisis stories were still being published. For example, in Birthright Lex and Clark knew each other since they were young, but in Byrne's Man of Steel they met only after Clark became Superman. DC never clarified the situation - it was just a big "Just wait and see" and nothing more. What made things even more complicated was that even in regular continuity - Loeb and Kelly were at helm of Superman in that period - they were trying to reintroduce classic elements of Silver Age continuity, including SA Jor-El.
    The readers' reaction was mixed and in some cases they basically destroyed poor Waid (especially his attempts, which were probably editorially-mandated to include some elements from Smallville, a hit in that period). Sales were fine but not great. For a couple of years Birthright actually became the official origin - more or less - but the stories kept mostly details of post-Crisis Superman. Then we had Infinite Crisis, One Year Later discarded Birthright and Geoff Johns' Secret Origins (which would be published 4-5 years later, actually) became the new origin. But it was erased by the New 52 too. The rest is history.
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

    I'm kinda surprised Snyder didn't want Superman to watch Lois and Bruce conceive their love child. All the while singing the "Na na na na na na Batman!" theme song - Robotman, 03/06/2021

  8. #8
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,412

    Default

    As for my personal idea - if that was the question in the first post - I like the first part, Clark in Africa and some elements of young Luthor. The Daily Planet scenes are nothing special, Jimmy Olsen is rather underutilized and some points (average Metropolis people helping Superman and Supes using his powers to sew the symbol back) are quite weird. What actually doesn't work at all is Luthor's plan. Finding out that it is just a FAKE invasion to make Superman look bad is a huge anticlimax.
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

    I'm kinda surprised Snyder didn't want Superman to watch Lois and Bruce conceive their love child. All the while singing the "Na na na na na na Batman!" theme song - Robotman, 03/06/2021

  9. #9
    Extraordinary Member superduperman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Metropolis USA
    Posts
    6,218

    Default

    Was Waid ever given an explanation for what he was told this was supposed to be?
    #RestoretheDonnerverse

  10. #10
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    2,412

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    Was Waid ever given an explanation for what he was told this was supposed to be?
    As far as I know, no. But he is so proud of it that I don’t think that he will ever openly say - for example - that some parts are editorially mandated (some details of Luthor's story were modified in a one-shot which was released while Birthright was still being published, so I'd say that the situation was not 100% clear). Waid's original outline also included Brainiac as the villain by the way - a computer creation of Jor El.
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

    I'm kinda surprised Snyder didn't want Superman to watch Lois and Bruce conceive their love child. All the while singing the "Na na na na na na Batman!" theme song - Robotman, 03/06/2021

  11. #11
    Traveler of omniverses Thor-Ul's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Halfway between Asgard & Krypton
    Posts
    4,266

    Default

    From what I remember it is than Waid admited he changed the story midway: originally he was going to have the computer ship to be the villian of the story, but in that time in Smallville (the series) already had gone with that same story. So, he changed discarded that idea and went in another route.
    "I used to be with 'it', but then they changed what 'it' was. Now what I'm with isn't 'it' anymore and whatís 'it' seems weird and scary. It'll happen to you!"

  12. #12
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    8,256

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    As for my personal idea - if that was the question in the first post - I like the first part, Clark in Africa and some elements of young Luthor. The Daily Planet scenes are nothing special, Jimmy Olsen is rather underutilized and some points (average Metropolis people helping Superman and Supes using his powers to sew the symbol back) are quite weird. What actually doesn't work at all is Luthor's plan. Finding out that it is just a FAKE invasion to make Superman look bad is a huge anticlimax.
    I'm in the same boat. I think there are some really strong parts in Birthright, but the ending just falls flat, perhaps because that wasn't Waid's original ending. It was supposed to be a faulty Jor-El AI as the Big Bad, but Jeph Loeb told Waid that was something that the Smallville TV show was going to to, so he dropped it and replaced it with what we got.

    And then the Smallville writers abruptly changed course and decided their Jor-El AI wasn't malfunctioning and just hoped that audiences would forget how much of a dick he was

  13. #13
    Extraordinary Member superduperman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Metropolis USA
    Posts
    6,218

    Default

    I'm certainly learning more now than I did before about the making of the book. I suspected that Smallville played a role in it's creation since they can't do the whole "grew up with Luthor" thing with the Byrne origin. The Ultimates line explanation makes a lot more sense than what they did. I kind of hope they eventually do a "Waid-verse" like Miller got where he can have it back and do what he wants with it.
    #RestoretheDonnerverse

  14. #14
    Ultimate Member Vordan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    16,486

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    I'm certainly learning more now than I did before about the making of the book. I suspected that Smallville played a role in it's creation since they can't do the whole "grew up with Luthor" thing with the Byrne origin. The Ultimates line explanation makes a lot more sense than what they did. I kind of hope they eventually do a "Waid-verse" like Miller got where he can have it back and do what he wants with it.
    His BL project with Hitch is a sequel to Birthright.
    For when my rants on the forums just arenít enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

  15. #15
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    3,591

    Default

    When was the first time in continuity that it was mentioned that Lex grew up with Clark?

    I didn't follow the monthly titles during that time, so I have no clue

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •