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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    When was the first time in continuity that it was mentioned that Lex grew up with Clark?
    Here
    http://superman.nu/tales3/young/
    From Superman: Secret Files 03. But this is actually a very specific story and it may not count, because it was written by Waid himself and actually retcons some elements of Birthright (maybe they were trying to reconcile them with Byrne Luthor) while Birthright was still being published.
    As far as regular titles are concerned, I may be wrong but Luthor in Smallville was actually never really mentioned until several years after Birthright. Maybe it happened after Johns and Busiek came on board.

    Three major continuity changes came from Birthright: young Luthor in Smallville (even if there are some Silver Age elements the general atmosphere was actually more similar to the Smallville TV series), the Kents' appearance (another detail from the TV series) and Krypton's new look. New Kents and Krypton actually appeared in regular stories (I think that the first appearance of new Jor-El and Lara was in Superman/Batman 01 but the new Krypton appeared more often after Superman 200, which led some readers to think that at the end of that anniversary issue Superman had "fallen" into the wrong continuity - yeah, it didn't really make sense). AFAIK Young Luthor actually never appeared between Superman: Godfall (https://superman.fandom.com/wiki/Superman:_Godfall) and One Year Later, probably because it was very hard to reconcile young Luthor with Byrne continuity whereas new Krypton and Kents were basically just updated looks.
    Continuity was actually very loose in those specific years - it was basically a lite version of post-Crisis Superman with some elements of Silver Age or Birthright - but even major stories like Azzarello's For Tomorrow had a very vague position continuity-wise. It didn't help that DC had some of the worst delays of its entire history for a series of reasons - Loeb's Supergirl took almost a year for the first 5 issues as far as I know (to a degree it was understandable - Loeb was experiencing serious problems in his personal life in those days - but editorial was a mess too: when Infinite Crisis was released the final issue wasn't even completely drawn).

    I think that young Luthor was mentioned more often after One Year Later, but Birthright had already been discarded as the official origin. What's funny is that in a backup of the 52 series Kurt Busiek actually includes a two-page origin for Luthor which also refers to Smallville, but is very different from Birthright, and was never mentioned again (it was supposed to be used in a Busiek miniseries which never happened). Years later, when the era introduced by Johns and Busiek was about to end, they finally retold Superman's beginnings in Johns' Secret Origins... Just in time for it to be discarded again by the New52. In Johns' and Frank's origin Luthor is AGAIN in Smallville, but a bit nastier than Birthright Luthor (they reintroduced some Byrne details again, including him killing his own father). Since Secret Origins experienced some major delays as well, I am quite sure that they tampered with that miniseries, too - in an earlier version of the cover there was Bizarro, but he never really appears in the story; and in one issue Luthor cuts himself with some glass irradiated by Kryptonite, which I guess was going to explain his baldness, but it's another detail which they never refer to again. In conclusion, I'd say that if Superman had 4-5 reboots in the latest 20 years, Luthor had actually even more, and most of them were not really necessary IMHO.
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

    I'm kinda surprised Snyder didn't want Superman to watch Lois and Bruce conceive their love child. All the while singing the "Na na na na na na Batman!" theme song - Robotman, 03/06/2021

  2. #17
    Extraordinary Member HsssH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    I don’t particularly care that the Byrne fanboys were upset, Superman needed an origin update at that point. But Didio shouldn’t have flip flopped like he did, either commit to it or let it be a stand-alone take outside of continuity.
    Why?

    10char

  3. #18
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    On a more personal note... Now that it's been almost 20 years since Birthright - which I read and enjoyed for a good while while it was being released - I can tell that none of the changes was actually really necessary.
    None of the stories which are intrinsically tied to any of the post-post-Crisis origins was that memorable and Byrne continuity is still a major influence - probably the strongest one - on current continuity (including Jon to a degree), as well as the triangle era. So what was the point? It's not that I am 100% a Byrne supporter, or a continuity freak, or even a fan of the Triangle era (I didn't even like it while it was still going on, even if I have appreciated it a bit more in more recent times). There are several elements in Byrne's MOS which are actually dated, especially as far as Clark's characterization is concerned. Birthright's best part is Clark's characterization. So they could have just retold the origins keeping most of MOS intact just by changing Clark's characterization and carefully reintroducing some elements without contradicting MOS (which is more or less what Loeb was doing in his stories - well, mostly). Changing everything every two-three years for, well, nothing, just confused young and old readers and alienated longtime fans.

    All in all, I think that Paul Levitz was right when he said that DC was relatively at peace as long as WB didn't realize its potential for multimedia projects. The only reason I can think of for them releasing Birthright or Secret Origins is movie and TV synergy with Smallville and Superman Returns. But most of the reintroduced details were quite pointless and short-lived.
    Last edited by Myskin; 01-18-2022 at 01:04 AM.
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

    I'm kinda surprised Snyder didn't want Superman to watch Lois and Bruce conceive their love child. All the while singing the "Na na na na na na Batman!" theme song - Robotman, 03/06/2021

  4. #19
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    Here
    http://superman.nu/tales3/young/
    From Superman: Secret Files 03. But this is actually a very specific story and it may not count, because it was written by Waid himself and actually retcons some elements of Birthright (maybe they were trying to reconcile them with Byrne Luthor) while Birthright was still being published.
    As far as regular titles are concerned, I may be wrong but Luthor in Smallville was actually never really mentioned until several years after Birthright. Maybe it happened after Johns and Busiek came on board.

    Three major continuity changes came from Birthright: young Luthor in Smallville (even if there are some Silver Age elements the general atmosphere was actually more similar to the Smallville TV series), the Kents' appearance (another detail from the TV series) and Krypton's new look. New Kents and Krypton actually appeared in regular stories (I think that the first appearance of new Jor-El and Lara was in Superman/Batman 01 but the new Krypton appeared more often after Superman 200, which led some readers to think that at the end of that anniversary issue Superman had "fallen" into the wrong continuity - yeah, it didn't really make sense). AFAIK Young Luthor actually never appeared between Superman: Godfall (https://superman.fandom.com/wiki/Superman:_Godfall) and One Year Later, probably because it was very hard to reconcile young Luthor with Byrne continuity whereas new Krypton and Kents were basically just updated looks.
    Continuity was actually very loose in those specific years - it was basically a lite version of post-Crisis Superman with some elements of Silver Age or Birthright - but even major stories like Azzarello's For Tomorrow had a very vague position continuity-wise. It didn't help that DC had some of the worst delays of its entire history for a series of reasons - Loeb's Supergirl took almost a year for the first 5 issues as far as I know (to a degree it was understandable - Loeb was experiencing serious problems in his personal life in those days - but editorial was a mess too: when Infinite Crisis was released the final issue wasn't even completely drawn).

    I think that young Luthor was mentioned more often after One Year Later, but Birthright had already been discarded as the official origin. What's funny is that in a backup of the 52 series Kurt Busiek actually includes a two-page origin for Luthor which also refers to Smallville, but is very different from Birthright, and was never mentioned again (it was supposed to be used in a Busiek miniseries which never happened). Years later, when the era introduced by Johns and Busiek was about to end, they finally retold Superman's beginnings in Johns' Secret Origins... Just in time for it to be discarded again by the New52. In Johns' and Frank's origin Luthor is AGAIN in Smallville, but a bit nastier than Birthright Luthor (they reintroduced some Byrne details again, including him killing his own father). Since Secret Origins experienced some major delays as well, I am quite sure that they tampered with that miniseries, too - in an earlier version of the cover there was Bizarro, but he never really appears in the story; and in one issue Luthor cuts himself with some glass irradiated by Kryptonite, which I guess was going to explain his baldness, but it's another detail which they never refer to again. In conclusion, I'd say that if Superman had 4-5 reboots in the latest 20 years, Luthor had actually even more, and most of them were not really necessary IMHO.
    Okay so I'm going crazy, I knew that Johns had Luthor in Smallville too, I never knew of Secret Files and I remember 52 with it's differences and just thought it was artistic license.

    It's kinda crazy that even before the constant rebooting DC continually changed Superman's origins without any clear direction, it truly is a choose your own adventure style reading and choose your own head canon

    Thanks for info, very informative. This thread is bringing back some old memories during this time.

  5. #20
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    Why?

    10char
    Byrne’s origin is steeped in the Cold War, it’s not timeless compared to what Batman had in Year One.
    For when my rants on the forums just aren’t enough: https://thevindicativevordan.tumblr.com/

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    Okay so I'm going crazy, I knew that Johns had Luthor in Smallville too, I never knew of Secret Files and I remember 52 with it's differences and just thought it was artistic license.

    It's kinda crazy that even before the constant rebooting DC continually changed Superman's origins without any clear direction, it truly is a choose your own adventure style reading and choose your own head canon

    Thanks for info, very informative. This thread is bringing back some old memories during this time.
    Thanks and no prob. I actually haven't reread this stuff in 10 years or so, but my memories of it are quite vivid because in those days I still read Superman comics on a regular basis and I still had some hopes that most of this stuff - the continuity mess, the contradictions, etc. - would actually be solved at some point with some incredible, unexpected twist. The general sensation was that no matter how frustrating reading the series was, DC was basically saying: "Yes, it may sound a mess, but - Just wait and see!", keeping you on board for some closure or some satisfying ending... Which actually never came. On the contrary, they kept changing stuff and they are still doing it. I mean, Venditti's Krypton has interesting art and if I was 16 I would find it readable, but what's the point if that specific version of Krypton (and Jor-El, and Zod...) has never been seen before and will probably never be seen again? The whole "everything counts!" nonsense for me is just the final middle finger to any reader who was trying to make sense of the continuity in any comprehensible way.

    Now that I think about it, I'd say that what really killed my interest in Superman is frustration. There are many other problems with the character which influenced my opinion (Clark is dated, I can't stand Jon, etc), but the final and most important nail was definitely how frustrating reading Superman was. What's the point of buying a series for years if there is no real closure or if they can even change the direction all of a sudden no matter how incoherent the plot becomes? It isn't worth the time nor the money. All in all, they renounced Byrne origin for nothing - or very little - in return, pissing off both old and potential new readers while doing it. Even if you didn't like postCrisis origin, I think that no one could actually argue that it wasn't solid and quite coherent - without that specific mythology we wouldn't have had the Death story, for example. They could have just updated the most dated details of that version without changing the most important parts. And as time went by I have developed a certain respect for those writers who have tried to reintroduce some old concepts without plainly copying and pasting them from the Silver Age. Matrix Supergirl may not be THE Supergirl, but thanks to Peter David's creativity she was the hero of an interesting series which lasted for 7 years and had a fresh and original mythology. And very little of the Supergirls which came later can be actually comparable to THAT series. I have never seen the post-Crisis rules as limitations, but rather as creative challenges which the writers had to face if they wanted to create something new and at the same time to keep he character recognizable. They were actually opportunities rather than flaws. But then movie synergy and Silver Age nostalgia came.
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

    I'm kinda surprised Snyder didn't want Superman to watch Lois and Bruce conceive their love child. All the while singing the "Na na na na na na Batman!" theme song - Robotman, 03/06/2021

  7. #22
    I'm at least a C-Lister! exile001's Avatar
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    Birthright was released after Godfall, a small series intended to act as a buffer between the end of Steven T. Seagle's run* (Cir-El, etc) and Azzarello's For Tomorrow. Seagle ended with a time shift and For Tomorrow was to act as a jumping on point (like Hush for Batman) so editorial took the opportunity to slide in a soft-reboot of the origin.

    I've always thought Birthright was just an okay miniseries and found it odd that it never really impacted anything. It felt like a reaction to Smallville and an editorial desire for a soft-reboot rather than its own thing. Outside of that I don't think it tells a particularly compelling story.

    Also, I have never understood the enthusiasm to have Lex and Clark know each other as kids in the comics. It adds nothing and the only reason it keeps getting rehashed is because that's the way it was pre-Crisis.

    *there was a weird Mr Majestic buffer before even that. I'm guessing Turner was behind on art duties.
    "Has Sariel summoned you here, Azrael? Have you come to witness the miracle of your brethren arriving on Earth?"

    "I WILL MIX THE ASHES OF YOUR BONES WITH SALT AND USE THEM TO ENSURE THE EARTH THE TEMPLARS TILLED NEVER BEARS FRUIT AGAIN!"

    "*sigh* I hoped it was for the miracle."

    Dan Watters' Azrael was incredible, a constant delight and perhaps too good for this world (but not the Forth). For the love of St. Dumas, DC, give us more!!!

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by exile001 View Post
    Birthright was released after Godfall, a small series intended to act as a buffer between the end of Steven T. Seagle's run* (Cir-El, etc) and Azzarello's For Tomorrow. Seagle ended with a time shift and For Tomorrow was to act as a jumping on point (like Hush for Batman) so editorial took the opportunity to slide in a soft-reboot of the origin.
    I am too lazy to check sites now, but I am quite sure that Birthright actually came BEFORE Godfall. In the final issue of Seagle's run Superman appears to be falling into Birthright continuity, which led some fans to speculate that it was the reason for the changes in the stories. However, DC never confirmed any of that and some changes - if I remember it well - had already been introduced in the stories - especially Jor-El's and Lara's look, as I described in an earlier post.
    Last edited by Myskin; 01-18-2022 at 04:56 AM.
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

    I'm kinda surprised Snyder didn't want Superman to watch Lois and Bruce conceive their love child. All the while singing the "Na na na na na na Batman!" theme song - Robotman, 03/06/2021

  9. #24
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    I've often said that as a story I think the first two thirds of BIRTHRIGHT is fantastic. The third act falls apart (and the art is downright awful those last couple issues too) but I still have a lot of fondness for Birthright on its own. However, I absolutely HATE what Birthright did to the Superman continuity. Or rather , I hate what the editors in charge did with Birthright in regards to Superman continuity.


    As with Myskin, looking back it was kind of the beginning of the end for me as a regular monthly Superman reader. Granted, it wasn't until sometime in the New 52 era that I started to drift away, but up until 2003-2004, I felt that in spite of the ups and downs, Superman's continuity and world was pretty straight forward and fairly easy to connect back to a certain point in time. It felt like there was a pretty strong foundation to keep building upon. There was logical forward progression for the character and his world. After that it started to become clear that the people in charge had no clue anymore and while there were still some good stories and runs after, In retrospect, that was the end of "my" Superman. It took years for me to come to that conclusion and make peace with it.
    Last edited by manofsteel1979; 01-18-2022 at 05:13 AM.
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
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  10. #25
    I'm at least a C-Lister! exile001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    I am too lazy to check sites now, but I am quite sure that Birthright actually came BEFORE Godfall. In the final issue of Seagle's run Superman appears to be falling into Birthright continuity, which led some fans to speculate that it was the reason for the changes in the stories. However, DC never confirmed any of that and some changes - if I remember it well - had already been introduced in the stories - especially Jor-El's and Lara's look, as I described in an earlier post.
    We're kinda both right. Lol.

    Birthright started in July 2003 and ran through July 2004. Seagle's last issue was December 2003 and Godfall was February-March 2004, so there's a high chance the "falling into Birthright continuity" (excellent way of putting it) was supposed to be the change that may or may not have happened.

    I'm pretty sure "For Tomorrow" used Birthright's Krypton but I'll admit I may be wrong. I don't read it too often as it's a very frustrating story (love some of it, hate other parts).

    Also, can we take a moment to appreciate how weird it was that even in 2004 the cover dates were months ahead? It seems weird that was kept after going direct market. Do comics still do that?
    "Has Sariel summoned you here, Azrael? Have you come to witness the miracle of your brethren arriving on Earth?"

    "I WILL MIX THE ASHES OF YOUR BONES WITH SALT AND USE THEM TO ENSURE THE EARTH THE TEMPLARS TILLED NEVER BEARS FRUIT AGAIN!"

    "*sigh* I hoped it was for the miracle."

    Dan Watters' Azrael was incredible, a constant delight and perhaps too good for this world (but not the Forth). For the love of St. Dumas, DC, give us more!!!

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by exile001 View Post
    We're kinda both right. Lol.

    Birthright started in July 2003 and ran through July 2004. Seagle's last issue was December 2003 and Godfall was February-March 2004, so there's a high chance the "falling into Birthright continuity" (excellent way of putting it) was supposed to be the change that may or may not have happened.

    I'm pretty sure "For Tomorrow" used Birthright's Krypton but I'll admit I may be wrong. I don't read it too often as it's a very frustrating story (love some of it, hate other parts).
    I confirm, even if the references are limited to Krypton's look.
    But Kryptonians in Birthright don't have a definite characterization, so it is acceptable.
    Educational town, Rolemodel city and Moralofthestory land are the places where good comics go to die.

    DC writers and editors looked up and shouted "Save us!"
    And Alan Moore looked down and whispered "No."

    I'm kinda surprised Snyder didn't want Superman to watch Lois and Bruce conceive their love child. All the while singing the "Na na na na na na Batman!" theme song - Robotman, 03/06/2021

  12. #27
    OUTRAGEOUS!! Thor-Ul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    When was the first time in continuity that it was mentioned that Lex grew up with Clark?

    I didn't follow the monthly titles during that time, so I have no clue
    Since Superboy #271 (1947). Birthright just put it back in continuity, because Smallville made it work beyond the basic feud.
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  13. #28
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myskin View Post
    Thanks and no prob. I actually haven't reread this stuff in 10 years or so, but my memories of it are quite vivid because in those days I still read Superman comics on a regular basis and I still had some hopes that most of this stuff - the continuity mess, the contradictions, etc. - would actually be solved at some point with some incredible, unexpected twist. The general sensation was that no matter how frustrating reading the series was, DC was basically saying: "Yes, it may sound a mess, but - Just wait and see!", keeping you on board for some closure or some satisfying ending... Which actually never came. On the contrary, they kept changing stuff and they are still doing it. I mean, Venditti's Krypton has interesting art and if I was 16 I would find it readable, but what's the point if that specific version of Krypton (and Jor-El, and Zod...) has never been seen before and will probably never be seen again? The whole "everything counts!" nonsense for me is just the final middle finger to any reader who was trying to make sense of the continuity in any comprehensible way.

    Now that I think about it, I'd say that what really killed my interest in Superman is frustration. There are many other problems with the character which influenced my opinion (Clark is dated, I can't stand Jon, etc), but the final and most important nail was definitely how frustrating reading Superman was. What's the point of buying a series for years if there is no real closure or if they can even change the direction all of a sudden no matter how incoherent the plot becomes? It isn't worth the time nor the money. All in all, they renounced Byrne origin for nothing - or very little - in return, pissing off both old and potential new readers while doing it. Even if you didn't like postCrisis origin, I think that no one could actually argue that it wasn't solid and quite coherent - without that specific mythology we wouldn't have had the Death story, for example. They could have just updated the most dated details of that version without changing the most important parts. And as time went by I have developed a certain respect for those writers who have tried to reintroduce some old concepts without plainly copying and pasting them from the Silver Age. Matrix Supergirl may not be THE Supergirl, but thanks to Peter David's creativity she was the hero of an interesting series which lasted for 7 years and had a fresh and original mythology. And very little of the Supergirls which came later can be actually comparable to THAT series. I have never seen the post-Crisis rules as limitations, but rather as creative challenges which the writers had to face if they wanted to create something new and at the same time to keep he character recognizable. They were actually opportunities rather than flaws. But then movie synergy and Silver Age nostalgia came.
    I feel the same way, especially with the X-Men I just dropped all of it after Hickman left. I lost all enthusiasm for it.

    So I feel your pain

  14. #29
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thor-Ul View Post
    Since Superboy #271 (1947). Birthright just put it back in continuity, because Smallville made it work beyond the basic feud.
    I never knew that it was that early

  15. #30
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    His BL project with Hitch is a sequel to Birthright.
    I hadn't heard that. Where did Waid mention this? He's always a good interview

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