SW ST aren't just bad movies, it also created a very dull era

[Slowpokeking]

For starters they had a coherent story.


I mean, I'm being serious here, there is no legitimate argument that could be made that the sequel trilogy is better than the prequels.

Also PT introduced a lot of new stuff.

The overall picture and theme was great, the problem is that the movie wasn't able to present a lot of things well. Plus Lucas sucks at writing romance, yet he let it played such a big role in the story.

Still RotS was far better than any of the ST movies.

[godisawesome]

I think that's slightly off base. PT had a monopoly because it was Star Wars, and hadn't yet soured the brand name with underwhelming movies, aka, the prequels, which had worse acting and dialogue overall, and more questionable effects. And if you're going to go that far into the politics of it, then you can't ignore the numerous racial steroetypes in the prequels and the fact that the supposedly strong female character of Padme falls in love with a creepy stalker-ish psycho like Anakin. Rey didn't fall in love with Ren, cringe as that final kiss was. And there wasn't even a lead Black character in those movies. The most we got was Mace Windu as a side character.

As other have pointed out, Finn got to be a lead for one movie before LFL went “Ahhh!” And start screwing him over toot-sweet… just like Rey, who got one film as the Uncontested lead character before TLJ had Luke take the story and made Kylo her parasitic co-lead instead.

Racial stereotypes accidentally appearing in alien characters, probably caused by either unconscious projection of a stereotype onto an inhuman character without the actual race or just pure accident, ain’t nearly as bad as showing you *can* do a good job, then freaking out - and making a weak-ass, boring story because of the racism in the story. Similarly, the sexism Padme had to deal with as a supporting character to Anakin… but Rey was the lead, and Padme at least had reasons to like Anakin, while let’s be honest here, they hollowed out Rey to make her a tool for Kylo’s story.

That’s why Rey and Finn got boring-ass stories after TFA; because they weren’t LFL’s boy Ben Solo, LFL never gave a damn about them, and just felt threatened by Finn, and by Rey having a spine.

And all of that was while reinforcing the most copy-pasted of the OT’s era.

[CosmiComic]

These comments surprise me. The prequels didn't have a more coherent story or better dialogue, or acting, or special effects, or characterization. They did have a more original storyline and more diverse planets but that's about it. "I hate sand" is worse than any dialogue in the prequels.

Seriously, when did people start saying the prequels were good? Is this another "new is bad so let's pretend old is good"? I agree Lucasfilm dropped the ball with Finn real bad. But that doesn't make the prequels good. Rey being boring doesn't make Padme's submissive characterization less sexist. A repetitive plot in TFA doesn't make tPM or AotC more coherent

[Slowpokeking]

These comments surprise me. The prequels didn't have a more coherent story or better dialogue, or acting, or special effects, or characterization. They did have a more original storyline and more diverse planets but that's about it. "I hate sand" is worse than any dialogue in the prequels.

Seriously, when did people start saying the prequels were good? Is this another "new is bad so let's pretend old is good"? I agree Lucasfilm dropped the ball with Finn real bad. But that doesn't make the prequels good. Rey being boring doesn't make Padme's submissive characterization less sexist. A repetitive plot in TFA doesn't make tPM or AotC more coherent

Even if we judge it singly by movie quality, EP III is much better than any of the ST.

Palpatine's character could easily beat everyone in ST as well.

[Vic Vega]

These comments surprise me. The prequels didn't have a more coherent story or better dialogue, or acting, or special effects, or characterization. They did have a more original storyline and more diverse planets but that's about it. "I hate sand" is worse than any dialogue in the prequels.

Seriously, when did people start saying the prequels were good? Is this another "new is bad so let's pretend old is good"? I agree Lucasfilm dropped the ball with Finn real bad. But that doesn't make the prequels good. Rey being boring doesn't make Padme's submissive characterization less sexist. A repetitive plot in TFA doesn't make tPM or AotC more coherent

Look I am no great fan of the Sequels myself, but I remember how the Prequels went over. There's some serious revisionism going on.

That and the peeps who were like 5 when TPM came out are clutching thier nostalgia goggles hard.

All the peeps who really, really hate the sequels forgot that the prequels were so badly regarded ( that AND Lucas' fixation on re editing and adding unnecessary CGI to the original trilogy just for the heck of it had pissed everyone off who just wanted a simple Director's cut of the original films) that it VERY likely was the reason Lucas sold out to Disney.

Even Lucas knew that if he'd tried to Write or Direct another film after ROTS he'd of irreparably wrecked the value of his own franchise. So he took the money and "retired".

Hell, for all of the beefing and complaining everyone does about the sequels they didn't even do all THAT much damage to the franchise, really. One Baby Yoda, later and ROS might as well not even have happened, except for nerds holding a grudge.

[BeastieRunner]

These comments surprise me. The prequels didn't have a more coherent story or better dialogue, or acting, or special effects, or characterization. They did have a more original storyline and more diverse planets but that's about it. "I hate sand" is worse than any dialogue in the prequels.

Seriously, when did people start saying the prequels were good? Is this another "new is bad so let's pretend old is good"? I agree Lucasfilm dropped the ball with Finn real bad. But that doesn't make the prequels good. Rey being boring doesn't make Padme's submissive characterization less sexist. A repetitive plot in TFA doesn't make tPM or AotC more coherent

Star Wars has always had toxic fandom.

This shouldn't be a surprise.

Really.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

People say the Clone Wars animated series salvaged the prequels. So I'd just have Dave Filoni do a new series based on the sequels.

[godisawesome]

These comments surprise me. The prequels didn't have a more coherent story or better dialogue, or acting, or special effects, or characterization. They did have a more original storyline and more diverse planets but that's about it. "I hate sand" is worse than any dialogue in the prequels.

Seriously, when did people start saying the prequels were good? Is this another "new is bad so let's pretend old is good"? I agree Lucasfilm dropped the ball with Finn real bad. But that doesn't make the prequels good. Rey being boring doesn't make Padme's submissive characterization less sexist. A repetitive plot in TFA doesn't make tPM or AotC more coherent

Actually, the PT’s story was much more coherent than the execution and in comparison to the ST, which was why it managed to end on a high point and launch so many successful spin-offs in video games, novels, comics and TV shows. That's not to say the story didn’t have problems - but it really was almost entirely down to execution, not concept or even plotline. The plot is actually damn smart, and always was, which was why guys like John Ostrander, Matthew Stover, and later Dave Filoni could excell so well in it - the plotline is clear, concise, focused, and clever, and did in fact bolsters the OT. There’s a reason that the PT rebounded from the doldrums of AOTC with ROTS, and why everyone’s excited about Christensen coming back to be directed by non-Lucas filmmakers - because the building blocks of the story are actually very strong.

The superiority of the PT era is part of the plot and story.

The ST *does*, don’t get me wrong, excel in areas the PT suffered at - general dialogue, acting, and occasional spurts of characterization… but those same strengths are often turned against each other by the crap plot and warring story visions. To enjoy Ben Solo in TROS, you kind of have to have contempt and and disgust for the storylines of TFA, and turn your brain off for part of TLJ and only acknowledge some parts of it in a very “smut fanfiction without the smut” style. To enjoy Luke in TLJ, you kind fo have to have contempt and ignorance of the OT and of TFA. To follow the military plotline, you have to hate any originality, any competence, and any imagination by the time everything is said and done. There’s a reason half the audience left entirely by the last film, and why initially excited actors like Boyega and Isaac joined Hamill in airing frustration, disgust, or depression at how things variously ended.

I’d actually argue that if TFA had even merely competent follow ups, the ST would clearly be superior to the PT. But TLJ’s a cancerous, contemptuous and dumb movie that’s like AOTC’s mirror universe twin, just as bad but in the exact opposite ways (an insane and nonsense fucking excuse for a plot dooming great actors and direction vs a clever an intriguing plot dragged down by poor acting and directing)… and it turns out that franchises and settings can recover from AOTC’s weaknesses better than TLJ’s.

“I hate sand” is bad. But Rey wanting to hold Kylo’s hand after he’s done nothing but continue to be a bland bastard is only a fucking fanfiction wish fulfillment for Kylo fanboys who hate Rey and Finn.

People say the Clone Wars animated series salvaged the prequels. So I'd just have Dave Filoni do a new series based on the sequels.

Let him change things and fix the time period and he could… but it ain’t a TCW situation. Again, the PT story was good enough even just changing the dialogue and putting it in book format is a revelation (ROTS). The ST needs fixing; less Ben Solo, more TFA Rey personality, more Finn, and less respect for anything from TLJ.

[Vic Vega]

I wouldn't say Star Trek doesn't look backwards. Enterprise was a prequel series, Discovery started as one (and Strange New Worlds will continue that), the movie Reboot was based on the TOS characters. Part of the hook of PICARD (Picard himself, Data, 7 of 9, Q in the new season etc) and to a lesser extent PRODIGY (Holo Janeway) are using characters from shows that ended decades ago.

True.

But I give them a pass on rebooting TOS when it's original cast is at the age when they may soon be no longer with us ( and some have already passed away).

That is still the majority of thier shows ( Disco, Picard, Lower Decks and Prodigy) that currently are set post Star Trek Nemesis and just Strange New Worlds set in the TOS era.

[Slowpokeking]

Actually, the PT’s story was much more coherent than the execution and in comparison to the ST, which was why it managed to end on a high point and launch so many successful spin-offs in video games, novels, comics and TV shows. That's not to say the story didn’t have problems - but it really was almost entirely down to execution, not concept or even plotline. The plot is actually damn smart, and always was, which was why guys like John Ostrander, Matthew Stover, and later Dave Filoni could excell so well in it - the plotline is clear, concise, focused, and clever, and did in fact bolsters the OT. There’s a reason that the PT rebounded from the doldrums of AOTC with ROTS, and why everyone’s excited about Christensen coming back to be directed by non-Lucas filmmakers - because the building blocks of the story are actually very strong.

The superiority of the PT era is part of the plot and story.

The ST *does*, don’t get me wrong, excel in areas the PT suffered at - general dialogue, acting, and occasional spurts of characterization… but those same strengths are often turned against each other by the crap plot and warring story visions. To enjoy Ben Solo in TROS, you kind of have to have contempt and and disgust for the storylines of TFA, and turn your brain off for part of TLJ and only acknowledge some parts of it in a very “smut fanfiction without the smut” style. To enjoy Luke in TLJ, you kind fo have to have contempt and ignorance of the OT and of TFA. To follow the military plotline, you have to hate any originality, any competence, and any imagination by the time everything is said and done. There’s a reason half the audience left entirely by the last film, and why initially excited actors like Boyega and Isaac joined Hamill in airing frustration, disgust, or depression at how things variously ended.

I’d actually argue that if TFA had even merely competent follow ups, the ST would clearly be superior to the PT. But TLJ’s a cancerous, contemptuous and dumb movie that’s like AOTC’s mirror universe twin, just as bad but in the exact opposite ways (an insane and nonsense fucking excuse for a plot dooming great actors and direction vs a clever an intriguing plot dragged down by poor acting and directing)… and it turns out that franchises and settings can recover from AOTC’s weaknesses better than TLJ’s.

“I hate sand” is bad. But Rey wanting to hold Kylo’s hand after he’s done nothing but continue to be a bland bastard is only a fucking fanfiction wish fulfillment for Kylo fanboys who hate Rey and Finn.



Let him change things and fix the time period and he could… but it ain’t a TCW situation. Again, the PT story was good enough even just changing the dialogue and putting it in book format is a revelation (ROTS). The ST needs fixing; less Ben Solo, more TFA Rey personality, more Finn, and less respect for anything from TLJ.

The PT's story have some minor problems, mainly about Anakin and Padme's romance was poorly written. But the overall setting was great.

But I don't think PT has poor acting, Hayden was fine but the dialogues and romance were poorly written. His voice probably could sound a bit better.

[Agent Z]

Both have their flaws and strong points.

PS @ WhiteG: The prequels made God awful use of it's actors. Only Ewan McGregor came out of it looking good.

Christopher Lee and Ian McDairmid were good too.

[Username taken]

As a collective piece of work, I much prefer the Prequel trilogy.

The prequels did something deliberately new and expanded the lore of the Star Wars universe. A lot of creative decisions people criticize in the PT were deliberate and quite frankly good decisions (like the look of the universe being extremely clean or the fighting styles of the Jedi in the prime or the introduction of Jango Fett). Not everything worked but a lot of people appreciate what Lucas was going for when he made those decisions. The PT was the singular work of George Lucas and he rounded up the trilogy with IMO the fourth-best Star Wars movie in Revenge of the Sith. The prequels were far from perfect but as far as creative directions go, it was far, far superior to the sequel trilogy. And it must be noted that the appreciation for the prequels isn't revisionism, a lot of us watched the prequels and appreciated them for what they were.

The ST started off disjointed and pretty much collapsed in on itself. The idea of getting different creators to write and direct the movies without a "guiding hand" was pretty idiotic and never made any sense. Yes, the original trilogy was directed by different filmmakers but Lucas was still involved in all the projects and had the final creative say. JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson quite clearly had very, VERY different ideas on where to take the franchise and both have fairly different filmmaking styles which ultimately created a very messy end result. The whole thing with the Emperor coming back, Rey being Palpatine's grand-daughter, the cliched "hero being a burnout thing" that they did with Luke (contrast this to how No Way Home treated the Spider-men), Snoke being a nothing character, the caving in to the "alt-right" crowd by marginalizing Rose Tico, the sidelining and total waste of Finn e.t.c were all just bad, bad decisions. The Rise of Skywalker felt very much like a movie made by a committee of people that simply didn't know what they were doing.

The PT did much more for Star Wars than the ST did. The ST has pretty much-left fans cold and Lucasfilm apparently don't even know what to do anymore as they haven't announced any more film projects.

[CosmiComic]

Even if we judge it singly by movie quality, EP III is much better than any of the ST.

Palpatine's character could easily beat everyone in ST as well.

But judging one movie vs a whole trilogy isn't really fair

Look I am no great fan of the Sequels myself, but I remember how the Prequels went over. There's some serious revisionism going on.

That and the peeps who were like 5 when TPM came out are clutching thier nostalgia goggles hard.

All the peeps who really, really hate the sequels forgot that the prequels were so badly regarded ( that AND Lucas' fixation on re editing and adding unnecessary CGI to the original trilogy just for the heck of it had pissed everyone off who just wanted a simple Director's cut of the original films) that it VERY likely was the reason Lucas sold out to Disney.

Even Lucas knew that if he'd tried to Write or Direct another film after ROTS he'd of irreparably wrecked the value of his own franchise. So he took the money and "retired".

Hell, for all of the beefing and complaining everyone does about the sequels they didn't even do all THAT much damage to the franchise, really. One Baby Yoda, later and ROS might as well not even have happened, except for nerds holding a grudge.

Ikr. People are acting like the sequels are some of the worst movies ever made and they're not. Neither are the prequels some hidden masterpieces. And as you point out, with D+ SW is doing better than ever in some ways. That doesn't mean I like the ST, because I don't, nor do I blame anyone else who doesn't. I just don't think it's good excuse for nostalgic revisionism

[CosmiComic]

Actually, the PT’s story was much more coherent than the execution and in comparison to the ST, which was why it managed to end on a high point and launch so many successful spin-offs in video games, novels, comics and TV shows. That's not to say the story didn’t have problems - but it really was almost entirely down to execution, not concept or even plotline. The plot is actually damn smart, and always was, which was why guys like John Ostrander, Matthew Stover, and later Dave Filoni could excell so well in it - the plotline is clear, concise, focused, and clever, and did in fact bolsters the OT. There’s a reason that the PT rebounded from the doldrums of AOTC with ROTS, and why everyone’s excited about Christensen coming back to be directed by non-Lucas filmmakers - because the building blocks of the story are actually very strong.

The superiority of the PT era is part of the plot and story.

The PT's plot only makes sense in theory to me. Palpatine tricking everyone was too unbelievable. As if the Jedi wouldn't be suspicious about a bounty hunter hired by Gunray to kill Padme being the template for the Republic's surprise clone army. Or Anakin going from 'what have I done' to 'I'll do whatever you ask' in a few minutes. Others improving the PT era through extra material doesn't mean the trilogy was great

The ST *does*, don’t get me wrong, excel in areas the PT suffered at - general dialogue, acting, and occasional spurts of characterization… but those same strengths are often turned against each other by the crap plot and warring story visions. To enjoy Ben Solo in TROS, you kind of have to have contempt and and disgust for the storylines of TFA, and turn your brain off for part of TLJ and only acknowledge some parts of it in a very “smut fanfiction without the smut” style. To enjoy Luke in TLJ, you kind fo have to have contempt and ignorance of the OT and of TFA. To follow the military plotline, you have to hate any originality, any competence, and any imagination by the time everything is said and done. There’s a reason half the audience left entirely by the last film, and why initially excited actors like Boyega and Isaac joined Hamill in airing frustration, disgust, or depression at how things variously ended.

I’d actually argue that if TFA had even merely competent follow ups, the ST would clearly be superior to the PT. But TLJ’s a cancerous, contemptuous and dumb movie that’s like AOTC’s mirror universe twin, just as bad but in the exact opposite ways (an insane and nonsense fucking excuse for a plot dooming great actors and direction vs a clever an intriguing plot dragged down by poor acting and directing)… and it turns out that franchises and settings can recover from AOTC’s weaknesses better than TLJ’s.

“I hate sand” is bad. But Rey wanting to hold Kylo’s hand after he’s done nothing but continue to be a bland bastard is only a fucking fanfiction wish fulfillment for Kylo fanboys who hate Rey and Finn.

Cancerous and contemptuous really feel like exaggerations to me. I mean, Padme literally married Anakin after he confessed to murdering Tusken Raiders, including children. Heck, even Anakin seemed absolved of decades of murder, including of Padme, just by saving Luke, and gets to return as a young force Ghost while Ben and Yoda stay old. So even the OT's ending really isn't better. I'm not sure how you go from that to Kylo is fanboy wish fulfillment.

Let him change things and fix the time period and he could… but it ain’t a TCW situation. Again, the PT story was good enough even just changing the dialogue and putting it in book format is a revelation (ROTS). The ST needs fixing; less Ben Solo, more TFA Rey personality, more Finn, and less respect for anything from TLJ.

All 3 movies are responsible for the ST failing, not just TJL. TFA was too unoriginal and TROS just capitulated to excessive whining but for the wrong reasons. And the PT story was not that good.

[CosmiComic]

As a collective piece of work, I much prefer the Prequel trilogy.

The prequels did something deliberately new and expanded the lore of the Star Wars universe. A lot of creative decisions people criticize in the PT were deliberate and quite frankly good decisions (like the look of the universe being extremely clean or the fighting styles of the Jedi in the prime or the introduction of Jango Fett). Not everything worked but a lot of people appreciate what Lucas was going for when he made those decisions. The PT was the singular work of George Lucas and he rounded up the trilogy with IMO the fourth-best Star Wars movie in Revenge of the Sith. The prequels were far from perfect but as far as creative directions go, it was far, far superior to the sequel trilogy. And it must be noted that the appreciation for the prequels isn't revisionism, a lot of us watched the prequels and appreciated them for what they were.

The ST started off disjointed and pretty much collapsed in on itself. The idea of getting different creators to write and direct the movies without a "guiding hand" was pretty idiotic and never made any sense. Yes, the original trilogy was directed by different filmmakers but Lucas was still involved in all the projects and had the final creative say. JJ Abrams and Rian Johnson quite clearly had very, VERY different ideas on where to take the franchise and both have fairly different filmmaking styles which ultimately created a very messy end result. The whole thing with the Emperor coming back, Rey being Palpatine's grand-daughter, the cliched "hero being a burnout thing" that they did with Luke (contrast this to how No Way Home treated the Spider-men), Snoke being a nothing character, the caving in to the "alt-right" crowd by marginalizing Rose Tico, the sidelining and total waste of Finn e.t.c were all just bad, bad decisions. The Rise of Skywalker felt very much like a movie made by a committee of people that simply didn't know what they were doing.

The PT did much more for Star Wars than the ST did. The ST has pretty much-left fans cold and Lucasfilm apparently don't even know what to do anymore as they haven't announced any more film projects.

That's the same position the PT left star wars in, though. PT did have a singular and original vision but the execution squandered it

The revisionism I'm talking about is people acting like the prequels are suddenly hidden masterpieces because the sequels are underwhelming.