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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    We will agree to disagree then.

    Like I said before, I can't really think of a single thing the ST did better than the PT.

    Not one.
    Acting, special effects, dialogue in some places, even the humor at times landed more than the PT

    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Exactly.

    The ST introduced literally retconned characters backstories and motivations within the same narrative.

    It all culminated with that absolutely ridiculous return of the Emperor which wasn’t even explained (???).

    The PT was a coherent work that was rounded up nicely. They weren’t perfect but there was logical consistency to the movies that the ST ultimately didn’t have. And it didn’t attempt to recreate scenes from the older movies (like The Force Awakens did).
    Idk how the PT was coherent. A random clone army suddenly coming out of nowhere isn't coherent at all

    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    Actually the movie probably got problems, but it did show the flaw of the old Jedi order and the old republic quite well

    It did to some extent but it didn't quite flesh out why the Jedi couldn't sense Palpatine was sidious.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    Also the PT greatly expanded the universe and left so much potential. The ST left a very dull era which doesn't even make too much sense.
    I agree the worldbuilding leaves much to be desired in the ST. It doesn't mean it should be left behind and give us just more prequels

  2. #47
    Silver Sentinel BeastieRunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    Exactly.

    The ST introduced literally retconned characters backstories and motivations within the same narrative.

    It all culminated with that absolutely ridiculous return of the Emperor which wasn’t even explained (???).

    The PT was a coherent work that was rounded up nicely. They weren’t perfect but there was logical consistency to the movies that the ST ultimately didn’t have. And it didn’t attempt to recreate scenes from the older movies (like The Force Awakens did).
    PT retconned ...

    - The Death Star
    - Boba Fett's origin
    - the X-Wing's origin
    - C-3PO's origin
    - Artoo's origin
    - Jedi garmets
    - Jedi training
    - Jedi powers
    - droid predujice
    - clones
    - removed the waring clone factions
    - The Force (the dreaded M word)
    - Gave the Old Republic a standing army when it previously never had one
    - gave Obi a different master
    - made Yoda a warrior
    - made Palps a warrior
    - changed how Vader lost his arm to the Emperor (he took it as punishment, hence why he was gonna kill him later and turn Luke)
    - Anakin was never truly shown as an ace pilot
    - gave Vader a sympathetic origin as opposed to generic super evil bad guy
    - Killed the twin's mom so Leia never was raised by her

    Some changes were good but ... Come on ... The PT changed so much. And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

    Even the OT was retconning while it came out.

    - Vader's origin
    - Skywalker lineage change literally in each movie
    - Han's characterization (not talking about the SE change)
    - Luke's days on Tatooine
    - Force powers
    - Force Ghost abilities
    - The Emperor's origin and powers
    - Anakin's origin
    - Owen's backstory
    - who knew about Luke (Anakin did in SW)
    - who knew about the twins

    Then we have all the SE changes that are considered canon now ...

    I mean ... Come on. There are so many in all 9 films.

    It's not like it never happened in the others.

    And yes, some retcons were improvments.

    IMHO the lack of plot congruity is one of the fun parts of being a Star Wars fan because you get so many no-prize explanations and tie-in materials just to fix plot holes.
    Last edited by BeastieRunner; 01-20-2022 at 10:08 PM.
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  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    PT retconned ...

    - The Death Star
    - Boba Fett's origin
    - the X-Wing's origin
    - C-3PO's origin
    - Artoo's origin
    - Jedi garmets
    - Jedi training
    - Jedi powers
    - droid predujice
    - clones
    - removed the waring clone factions
    - The Force (the dreaded M word)
    - Gave the Old Republic a standing army when it previously never had one
    - gave Obi a different master
    - made Yoda a warrior
    - made Palps a warrior
    - changed how Vader lost his arm to the Emperor (he took it as punishment, hence why he was gonna kill him later and turn Luke)
    - Anakin was never truly shown as an ace pilot
    - gave Vader a sympathetic origin as opposed to generic super evil bad guy
    - Killed the twin's mom so Leia never was raised by her

    Some changes were good but ... Come on ... The PT changed so much. And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

    Even the OT was retconning while it came out.

    - Vader's origin
    - Skywalker lineage change literally in each movie
    - Han's characterization (not talking about the SE change)
    - Luke's days on Tatooine
    - Force powers
    - Force Ghost abilities
    - The Emperor's origin and powers
    - Anakin's origin
    - Owen's backstory
    - who knew about Luke (Anakin did in SW)
    - who knew about the twins

    Then we have all the SE changes that are considered canon now ...

    I mean ... Come on. There are so many in all 9 films.

    It's not like it never happened in the others.

    And yes, some retcons were improvments.

    IMHO the lack of plot congruity is one of the fun parts of being a Star Wars fan because you get so many no-prize explanations and tie-in materials just to fix plot holes.
    A lot of that stuff regarding the PT weren’t in the same trilogy. If anything, they simply fleshed out stuff that we knew nothing about. For Yoda, I remember the old early 80s books saying that he was the “sword master” of the Jedi, so it wasn’t really too much of a stretch to see him wield one. The very massive retcon to the entire lore was the “midochlorians” which hasn’t really been mentioned much again. Most of what Lucas tossed was the EU stuff some of which was admittedly very corny (like Luuke ).

    It’s pretty much same with the OT where some stuff was fleshed out. The major retcon in the OT was Luke’s origin and back story (from a certain point of view ). The likes of Boba Fett had no canonical origin and the Jedi were all but extinct at that point, hence Lucas treating it like a blank slate when the prequels came out.

    But you’re right that the movies do have some continuity adjustments as they go on. But they're rarely as huge as the protagonist’s backstory seemingly changing emphatically between the movies and worse still said story simply mirroring elements of the previous trilogy (I.e Rey’s lineage being from a dark lord like Luke, growing up on a desert planet like Luke etc).
    Last edited by Username taken; 01-21-2022 at 06:52 AM.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by CosmiComic View Post
    Acting, special effects, dialogue in some places, even the humor at times landed more than the PT



    Idk how the PT was coherent. A random clone army suddenly coming out of nowhere isn't coherent at all




    It did to some extent but it didn't quite flesh out why the Jedi couldn't sense Palpatine was sidious.



    I agree the worldbuilding leaves much to be desired in the ST. It doesn't mean it should be left behind and give us just more prequels
    I don’t know about this.

    The origin of the clone army was a major part of the plot of Attack of the Clones. And why the clones were even authorized in the first place was explained in the PT. Yes, some aspects of the backstory weren’t explained (who was Master Sifo Dyas? We only know he’s a dead Jedi Master) but it was explained that the clone army was being developed on Kamino and the records of Kamino had been deleted from the Jedi archive (likely orchestrated by Tyranus who was a Jedi Master working with the Emperor).

    That’s why it was a surprise to the Jedi.

    Honestly, I like the political angle the PT took regarding Sidious and how he became the Emperor. Most tyrant demagogues come in through political, “democratic” means and not largely through the use of the force. The fact the Emperor was actually “given” his political power mirrored exactly what was happening in the US at the time and was actually ahead of its time seeing how democracy in the US is being challenged right now. The guy basically played the system against itself and attained power by playing different parts of the Republic against itself…which is exactly what’s happening in the US now.

    A marked contrast to how the ST retreated when the "gaters" attacked elements of the new movies.
    Last edited by Username taken; 01-21-2022 at 06:55 AM.

  5. #50
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Username taken View Post
    A lot of that stuff regarding the PT weren’t in the same trilogy. If anything, they simply fleshed out stuff that we knew nothing about. For Yoda, I remember the old early 80s books saying that he was the “sword master” of the Jedi, so it wasn’t really too much of a stretch to see him wield one. The very massive retcon to the entire lore was the “midochlorians” which hasn’t really been mentioned much again. Most of what Lucas tossed was the EU stuff some of which was admittedly very corny (like Luuke ).

    It’s pretty much same with the OT where some stuff was fleshed out. The major retcon in the OT was Luke’s origin and back story (from a certain point of view ). The likes of Boba Fett had no canonical origin and the Jedi were all but extinct at that point, hence Lucas treating it like a blank slate when the prequels came out.

    But you’re right that the movies do have some continuity adjustments as they go on. But they're rarely as huge as the protagonist’s backstory seemingly changing emphatically between the movies and worse still said story simply mirroring elements of the previous trilogy (I.e Rey’s lineage being from a dark lord like Luke, growing up on a desert planet like Luke etc).
    Also a lot of them didn't retcon, just changed basic concepts.

    Retcon=you have to change what actually shown in the canon, not basic concepts and drafts. Such as Vader's origin was perfectly explainable based on the screen materials. Change of concept is not retconning at all.

  6. #51
    Silver Sentinel BeastieRunner's Avatar
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    Making Vader and Anakin one in the same is a retcon, a mighty big one. Retroactive changes to established concepts are not retcons? Interesting thought.

    Even GL said they had to do a lot of spinning to make it work. It is also why he nearly always ignored expanded material because it got in his way.

    This is starting to remind me of debates on the main board 20 years ago ... Retroactive continuity is not a bad word or always a bad thing.

    It is part of the reason why I think SW needed a reboot because the EU was too gangly. I still wish Disney just went whole hog and rebooted the whole thing but that is another debate. I also think people shouldn't get too attached to the new side stories because it is just a matter of time before they get in the way again.

    And it is okay to not like something.
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  7. #52
    Astonishing Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    Making Vader and Anakin one in the same is a retcon, a mighty big one. Retroactive changes to established concepts are not retcons? Interesting thought.

    Even GL said they had to do a lot of spinning to make it work. It is also why he nearly always ignored expanded material because it got in his way.

    This is starting to remind me of debates on the main board 20 years ago ... Retroactive continuity is not a bad word or always a bad thing.

    It is part of the reason why I think SW needed a reboot because the EU was too gangly. I still wish Disney just went whole hog and rebooted the whole thing but that is another debate. I also think people shouldn't get too attached to the new side stories because it is just a matter of time before they get in the way again.

    And it is okay to not like something.
    It comes down to the writing and execution...and the changes you mentioned in the PT weren't bad.
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  8. #53
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeastieRunner View Post
    Making Vader and Anakin one in the same is a retcon, a mighty big one. Retroactive changes to established concepts are not retcons? Interesting thought.

    Even GL said they had to do a lot of spinning to make it work. It is also why he nearly always ignored expanded material because it got in his way.

    This is starting to remind me of debates on the main board 20 years ago ... Retroactive continuity is not a bad word or always a bad thing.

    It is part of the reason why I think SW needed a reboot because the EU was too gangly. I still wish Disney just went whole hog and rebooted the whole thing but that is another debate. I also think people shouldn't get too attached to the new side stories because it is just a matter of time before they get in the way again.

    And it is okay to not like something.
    No they are not, since it was only Obi Wan's words in ANH and proved not to be true.

    Retcon= Change which could not be logically explained in the actual work.

    Tolkien didn't even have the One Ring's concept in mind when he first wrote the Hobbit, Saruman was only an excuse to tell why was Gandalf late at first, is it retcon? NO.

    It's not about good or bad, it's not retcon at all.

  9. #54
    Astonishing Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    No they are not, since it was only Obi Wan's words in ANH and proved not to be true.

    Retcon= Change which could not be logically explained in the actual work.

    Tolkien didn't even have the One Ring's concept in mind when he first wrote the Hobbit, Saruman was only an excuse to tell why was Gandalf late at first, is it retcon? NO.

    It's not about good or bad, it's not retcon at all.
    ...it was very obviously a retcon man, in fact there are all kinds of primary sources that detail all the changes made in the making of the OT.
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  10. #55
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    ...it was very obviously a retcon man, in fact there are all kinds of primary sources that detail all the changes made in the making of the OT.
    It's not, retcon is what you can't explain it in universe. OT's direction change was 100% logically explained in the story.

    Yes Anakin and Vader are not the same one during the making of ANH, but concept change is not retcon as long as in universe story could make an logical explanation.

  11. #56
    Astonishing Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    It's not, retcon is what you can't explain it in universe. OT's direction change was 100% logically explained in the story.

    Yes Anakin and Vader are not the same one during the making of ANH, but concept change is not retcon as long as in universe story could make an logical explanation.
    ...that's not what it means at all. A retcon is simply a piece of new information that gives a different interpretation on previously described events...which is exactly what Vader becoming Luke's father and Leia being Luke's sister were.
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  12. #57
    Mighty Member 90'sCartoonMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Actually, the PT’s story was much more coherent than the execution and in comparison to the ST, which was why it managed to end on a high point and launch so many successful spin-offs in video games, novels, comics and TV shows. That's not to say the story didn’t have problems - but it really was almost entirely down to execution, not concept or even plotline. The plot is actually damn smart, and always was, which was why guys like John Ostrander, Matthew Stover, and later Dave Filoni could excell so well in it - the plotline is clear, concise, focused, and clever, and did in fact bolsters the OT. There’s a reason that the PT rebounded from the doldrums of AOTC with ROTS, and why everyone’s excited about Christensen coming back to be directed by non-Lucas filmmakers - because the building blocks of the story are actually very strong.
    The PT promised the story of the fall of the Jedi, the rise of the Empire, and Anakin becoming Darth Vader. All those plots began with the Phantom Menace and paid off in Revenge of the Sith. For all its faults, we can at least say the prequels did deliver what they promised.

    It was hard to tell what the ST was trying to do, which may have been interesting at first but is frustrating in hindsight. Rey's parents was something they flip-flopped on, and Palpatine returned out of nowhere. There are gaps in the story and unresolved plots. The overall narrative of the sequels is much messier than the prequels.

  13. #58
    Mighty Member Slowpokeking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    ...that's not what it means at all. A retcon is simply a piece of new information that gives a different interpretation on previously described events...which is exactly what Vader becoming Luke's father and Leia being Luke's sister were.
    That is what means.

    Obi Wan doesn't have to tell all the truth, nor is he all knowing. They also made him explain why did he say that later.

    The story doesn't get any plot hole at all, how is it retcon.

  14. #59
    Astonishing Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slowpokeking View Post
    That is what means.

    Obi Wan doesn't have to tell all the truth, nor is he all knowing. They also made him explain why did he say that later.

    The story doesn't get any plot hole at all, how is it retcon.
    Come on man, "true, from a certain point of view" was a hand wave to brush away the change that was made; it was obvious in the film itself and when you read about how the change came about in interviews it's doubly clear it wasn't the original intention.
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  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    It comes down to the writing and execution...and the changes you mentioned in the PT weren't bad.
    Exactly. Particularly the bolded part.

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