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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    There's no way to call someone myopic and it not being insulting. And if you don't think someone is "racist, sexist, elitist, or just plain biased," why the heck bring it up in the first place?



    All I'm getting from this is that you didn't like the movie, therefore anyone who did is wrong or doesn't understand how things work.
    I brought up the sexist, racist, biased part because those are valid reasons many people have for disliking the film, while others aren’t turned off by those moments but aren’t necessarily attracted by them… and that there is a segment that does enjoy it for those elements.

    And yes, I know calling your POV myopic on this issue is going to be a criticism regardless, but it’s limited to *this* instance and this movie, in a way that a lot of people are for a lot of fiction. I don’t mean it as a judgement of you as a person on your life, merely in this example of a perspective on a fictional piece of pop culture entertainment.

    People all over the world can enjoy guilty pleasures to varying degrees of awareness about it without being nigri at in their actual lives.

    But if you can’t see why John Boyega is justified to be pissed off, or why Maryanne Brandon felt justified to declare TLJ as undoing TFA’s work… or specifically here, why the vast bulk of people who liked Rey and Kylo’s interactions in TLJ weren’t going to think he should remain evil, and were supporting Rey being his girlfriend, then you’re not acknowledging the extreme validity of other POVs that arguably had more substance than the alternatives.

    Reylo fans and Ben Solo fans had more reason to expect him to be coddled and promoted as the heroic male lead and have Rey attracted to him after TLJ than you or others did for him to remain a villain and her to remain opposed to him.

    TLJ made the victim of Ben Solo’s metaphorical sexual assault, who he’d also deprived of a father figure and her best friend, attracted to him with little more than maybe some pick-up artist negging, and transformed his largest overall victim into his advocate so much she was submitted to torture and violation again for his benefit, with the film never suggesting we should hold that against Kylo.

    How can you expect Ben Solo’s fans to not take that as a giant endorsement of their desire for him to be the main character instead of Rey or Finn?
    Last edited by godisawesome; 03-07-2022 at 06:09 PM.
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  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I brought up the sexist, racist, biased part because those are valid reasons many people have for disliking the film, while others aren’t turned off by those moments but aren’t necessarily attracted by them… and that there is a segment that does enjoy it for those elements.
    Which is neither here nor there to this.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    And yes, I know calling your POV myopic on this issue is going to be a criticism regardless, but it’s limited to *this* instance and this movie, in a way that a lot of people are for a lot of fiction. I don’t mean it as a judgement of you as a person on your life, merely in this example of a perspective on a fictional piece of pop culture entertainment.

    People all over the world can enjoy guilty pleasures to varying degrees of awareness about it without being nigri at in their actual lives.
    Sorry, but I do not feel any more assured.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    But if you can’t see why John Boyega is justified to be pissed off, or why Maryanne Brandon felt justified to declare TLJ as undoing TFA’s work… or specifically here, why the vast bulk of people who liked Rey and Kylo’s interactions in TLJ weren’t going to think he should remain evil, and were supporting Rey being his girlfriend, then you’re not acknowledging the extreme validity of other POVs that arguably had more substance than the alternatives.
    Boyega's experiences are his own. So far as TLJ undoing TFA, all I can say is that JJ Abrams' mystery box didn't leave a lot to be undone, given how open-ended it left things. Heck, the most controversial element, Luke having failed and gone into self-exile, was literally established in the original movie. Maybe it's the old RPG game master in me, but onky what gets on screen counts. (And look, I agree that a key weak point with the sequel trilogy was the lack of planning.)

    Also, funny how my views aren't valid because they aren't "popular."

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Reylo fans and Ben Solo fans had more reason to expect him to be coddled and promoted as the heroic male lead and have Rey attracted to him after TLJ than you or others did for him to remain a villain and her to remain opposed to him.
    Yeah, because getting a door shut in his face screams redemption is nigh. Not to mention how the Trevorrow draft of Episode 9 had Kylo remain unredeemed. Certainly, TLJ did add material to facilitate a redemption story down the road, but any of the movies could've gone that route. It was a crossroads, not a final course, and, sadly for us, they picked the story we didn't want.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    TLJ made the victim of Ben Solo’s metaphorical sexual assault, who he’d also deprived of a father figure and her best friend, attracted to him with little more than maybe some pick-up artist negging, and transformed his largest overall victim into his advocate so much she was submitted to torture and violation again for his benefit, with the film never suggesting we should hold that against Kylo.
    For the record, Rey being willing to try and trust Kylo did stretch my willing suspension of disbelief to the absolute limit and I do think the writing suffers in trying to make it work, the actors' goof performances aside.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    How can you expect Ben Solo’s fans to not take that as a giant endorsement of their desire for him to be the main character instead of Rey or Finn?
    Because of the whole point of the end, e.g. that Kylo cannot be saved because he never wanted to be (a huge failing on TROS, as well, since he's full on dark side until he magically changes because his mother -- who he ordered killed with the rest of the Resistance at the end of TLJ -- sent a Force voice mail that worked because reasons)?

    I've never put together why LucasFilm decided trying to stuff a redemption story in the last movie was a good idea. Certainly, in retrospect, you can pick out pieces that can string together some kind of story and all that. However, while I do think TLJ offered some additional depth to Kylo and I do get why some viewers would be inspired to give him the "Draco in Leather Pants" treatment, I also maintain that you have to ignore just how vile he is in the film to make it work.
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  3. #108
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    Kylo killed his father, tried to kill his mother, and was responsible for the death of his mentor. He idolized Darth Vader (not Anakin. DARTH VADER.) He killed the new Emperor figure in order to take control himself. If there were puppies around, he probabaly would have kicked them. He wasn't just a misguided guy that took the wrong path. He idolized Evil and wanted more than anything to be the Bad Guy.

    I don't care what his fans wanted. This was not a guy they were setting up to be a good guy.

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    I've never put together why LucasFilm decided trying to stuff a redemption story in the last movie was a good idea. Certainly, in retrospect, you can pick out pieces that can string together some kind of story and all that. However, while I do think TLJ offered some additional depth to Kylo and I do get why some viewers would be inspired to give him the "Draco in Leather Pants" treatment, I also maintain that you have to ignore just how vile he is in the film to make it work.
    Which is one of the reasons I respect your opinion more than others (even if I don't always show it, and I apologize for that.)

    But in the same way that you think that TLJ strained your belief about how workable its story was in execution, I also feel like TLJ's story simply conceptually committed the same issue LFL eventually enacted in TROS.

    Conceptually speaking, looking at TFA and saying "Rey hasn't shut the door in his face yet" also requires ignoring how vile he was in TFA to work - once the starting point is that all the things he did in TFA wouldn't have her hate him, and that she'd find him someone she could plausibly redeem, or that we as an audience would be invested in Ben Solo that way... then nothing TLJ is going to do matters either.

    By its very nature, "Kylo seems plausibly sympathetic to Rey and she grows close to him and tries to redeem him" is never going to feed the "Kylo is the vile villain" meta-narrative as much as it feeds the "Man, wouldn't it be cool if Ben Solo was out main hero instead?" meta-narrative - all because it involves ignoring how, conceptually, Rey should LOATHE Kylo and wish his destruction if she's to have a believable POV, as should the audience. TLJ's entire story there relies on ignroing how most of the audience reacted to Kylo in favor of a minority view of him (a view you didn't share anymore than I did, even if you didn't hate him yet.)

    And I believe it's factual that LFL saw it that way - they rejected Kylo as the main villain of DOTF and asked for new Big Bads like Sollony Ren to replace him and, yup, put him on the same side as Rey before he died: https://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/...llike-villain/ .

    And I have to say this: Abrams never mystery-boxed who his leads were, what their story arcs were in TFA, or what their personalities were; as an RPG maker there, he actually told complete arcs and created psycholgocial profiles that interested people. Johnson betrayed that and retconned those, which is why I think Boyega's more right than you are about what happened ot his character - because there's observable retcons to characterization all throughout TLJ.

    TFA!Rey wouldn't be tricked by Kylo, TFA!Finn doesn't need to learn to see the big picture because he's already got it, TFA!Poe is already a matured leader, and TFA!Everyone knows that Kylo is a scumbag.

    Not seeing that usually means not grasping the emotional characterizations of the film - an area where TFA's a lot more substantial than TLJ.
    Last edited by godisawesome; 03-08-2022 at 11:55 AM.
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  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Which is one of the reasons I respect your opinion more than others (even if I don't always show it, and I apologize for that.)
    Okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    But in the same way that you think that TLJ strained your belief about how workable its story was in execution, I also feel like TLJ's story simply conceptually committed the same issue LFL eventually enacted in TROS.
    Okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Conceptually speaking, looking at TFA and saying "Rey hasn't shut the door in his face yet" also requires ignoring how vile he was in TFA to work - once the starting point is that all the things he did in TFA wouldn't have her hate him, and that she'd find him someone she could plausibly redeem, or that we as an audience would be invested in Ben Solo that way... then nothing TLJ is going to do matters either.
    If memory serves from hanging around forums in 2015, even before TLJ was released, there were whole sections of fans clambering "Bendemption" and "Reylo" to become canon solely based on the first movie and it's damning picture of Kylo. Not sure if there was an overriding reason (late in the game, I remember the refrain that Kylo had to be redeemed, otherwise the franchise would be ruined forever, since in meant that the Skywalker legacy would only be one of evil, death, and sadness -- to which I would have to point out that even in the final film, Kylo is not the titular Skywalker).

    I guess it's a crapshoot how many "redeem Kylo" fans were persuaded by TLJ or how many were already on the train and saw what they wanted to see when TLJ rolled around (also remember plenty of forum arguments on how TLJ did or did not push Kylo towards or away from redemption).

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    By its very nature, "Kylo seems plausibly sympathetic to Rey and she grows close to him and tries to redeem him" is never going to feed the "Kylo is the vile villain" meta-narrative as much as it feeds the "Man, wouldn't it be cool if Ben Solo was out main hero instead?" meta-narrative - all because it involves ignoring how, conceptually, Rey should LOATHE Kylo and wish his destruction if she's to have a believable POV, as should the audience. TLJ's entire story there relies on ignroing how most of the audience reacted to Kylo in favor of a minority view of him (a view you didn't share anymore than I did, even if you didn't hate him yet.)
    Seeing how TLJ was a movie of deconstructing the mythos, I think the whole point of teasing Kylo as possibly being redeemed was largely to highlight that it wasn't that kind of movie; history wasn't going to repeat itself like happened with Vader. I mean, Rey's thinking he can be redeemed is painted as nothing but a serious mistake on her part. Even the novelization (written with input from Rian Johnson), at best, painted Kylos' status as "wait and see," not "totally going to be redeemed."

    Course, LucasFilm has been pretty cagey about what planning there was, so I'm not sure whether redeeming Kylo was always in the cards or if it was improvised (given how badly it was executed, I have to think the latter). On the other hand, with us now seeing the big picture, that does change stuff, so, since we know know that Kylo was redeemed in the end, that drastically changes how we see TLJ and its plot points.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    And I believe it's factual that LFL saw it that way - they rejected Kylo as the main villain of DOTF and asked for new Big Bads like Sollony Ren to replace him and, yup, put him on the same side as Rey before he died: https://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/...llike-villain/ .
    Yeah, I'm pretty sure that Palpatine was brought back in part to facilitate Kylo's redemption (need another big bad for the plot once the original big bad turns good again).

    I think, on paper, a Kylo Ren redemption could work, but I don't think the series had enough narrative space to pull it off, both in terms of just space for character growth and how it fought for screen time with the other characters and plots.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    And I have to say this: Abrams never mystery-boxed who his leads were, what their story arcs were in TFA, or what their personalities were; as an RPG maker there, he actually told complete arcs and created psycholgocial profiles that interested people. Johnson betrayed that and retconned those, which is why I think Boyega's more right than you are about what happened ot his character - because there's observable retcons to characterization all throughout TLJ.
    That may be. All I can say is that, strictly looking at the movies, TFA and TLJ feel like a cohesive whole while TROS feels like the weird one retconning and ignoring stuff, as if Abrams was trying to make his own Episodes 8 and 9 within one film. Mileage obviously varies on that.
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  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    TFA!Rey wouldn't be tricked by Kylo...
    I think that the editing really made this suffer. It's kinda well-known that while Luke promises three lessons, we only see two. While I just assumed at the time that Luke never got the chance for the third before things fell apart, that third lesson was actually placed before Rey checks the cave and has the Force Skype with Kylo that leads to believing that he could be redeemed. Whether the connective tissue would or would not have made it work better, it, at the very least helped paint the idea that Rey was feeling absolutely isolated and having no one else to turn to. That may not have been enough, I will concede; the third lesson is in the novelization and I think the story flow better overall with it back in the narrative, but it's still a stretch that she's be on talking terms with Kylo that fast, but it would've made for a less abrupt change.

    That said, my main difficulty is buying that she would reach a point that she'd be willing to listen to Kylo and do the Force touch thing. Once she has the Force vision that she thinks is telling her she can redeem Kylo, I can accept that she would buy that it was going to work (it's the Force, after all; it'd be like someone thinking they got a message directly from God). That maybe why I'm more forgiving of the Rey/Kylo stuff in the movie; I only find one part of it hard to swallow, as opposed to the whole thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    ...TFA!Finn doesn't need to learn to see the big picture because he's already got it...
    Respectfully, I have to disagree on that. Finn clearly ends the movie willing to stick up for certain people, but its very debatable if that would extend to the cause as a whole; I mean, he literally admits the only reason he went on the mission to destroy Starkiller Base was to rescue Rey (including lying about how much he knew about the station and that he needed to be there). While he did see it through, it's very fuzzy on whether that counts as being willing to serve the cause. TLJ picks up on the "loyalty to friends" and, if we assume that that's where he left off, going the extra mile and becoming loyal to the cause is a logical next step.

    Mileage may vary on whether that was the best next step for the character, but at least there is a certain logic to it. That's very much why I personally believe that TROS was the movie that let Finn down. He doesn't have any real arc or major role in the narrative, and, while its good seeing him having a leadership role in the cause (payoff from the TLJ arc), he could be pretty easily written out of the film.

    Fair enough if you disagree, but is any of this at least understandable?

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    ...TFA!Poe is already a matured leader...
    I think Poe suffered significantly from being intended to be a one-shot character who died early on and was then brought back for the whole series. Of all the principles, he has the messiest character arc (I actually think Rey fares the best; she gets something in every movie, esp. in regards to an overarching quest for identity, and there is some progression; even the unexpected twist that she was descended from Sith and had some predisposition to the dark side works with the flashes of her struggles with her temper and balancing herself in the first two).

    Heck, it's my understanding that Poe had gotten a similar learns not to be reckless arc in his comic series before TLJ came out. The tie-ins certainly suffered a lot from that. The unexpected revelation that he'd been with a smuggling outfit before really messed with the established facts that he'd been a New Republic pilot his whole life, forcing retcons to fit everything together (the final answer was that smuggling had been something during his troubled teens).

    Due to the level of screentime he got, I can see an argument that he still could've been reckless and it just wasn't focused on or a problem during that film and I did appreciate the nods to him working through the hard parts of leadership in TROS, but I don't think the overall followthrough worked. Frankly, I though that TLJ did the most interesting character stuff with him; he was kind of a glorified supporting character in the first movie and the last one was kind of unfocused in regards to him.

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    ...and TFA!Everyone knows that Kylo is a scumbag.
    Honestly, on paper, I liked that TLJ gave us more of Kylo's backstory and added some complexity to him. Evil as he may be, he does have reasons for why he does what he does and it added some personal stakes and dimension to the conflict between the two sides. That said, as noted before, I don't think it worked as a platform for redemption, so that's probably why I blame TROS more for whitewashing Kylo (with all the "devil made him do it" excuses in the tie-ins).

    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Not seeing that usually means not grasping the emotional characterizations of the film - an area where TFA's a lot more substantial than TLJ.
    I will concede I think Abrams tends to get better performances out of the cast, which is a thing I do have to say about the movies; no matter the writing, they are well-acted. I mean, I didn't find Kylo's redemption believable, but Adam Driver does everything to sell it (and, by itself, it's a well-made scene).
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  7. #112
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    Alright, I’ve got a theory some of the difference here is that TFA is a much more “romantic” film, and that most fans view Star Wars “romantically”, while you and the few others who think TLJ set up Kylo as a more dedicated evil might be viewing it in a more “emotionally cold way.” Bare with me, I’m going to express some of my emotions on this to try and communicate the difference, but to some extent, I think it could be summarized this way: TFA shows much more concrete emotional beats while TLJ says more bluntly clear goals… but because there’s more substance to TFA and there’s a few double standards in TLJ, most other people more clearly saw TLJ going backwards on a lot of things.

    On Kylo:

    TFA’s much more deconstructive than TLJ for Kylo, though - killing Han when he offers redemption will always communicate that Kylo is damned more than saying no to Rey. We already know Kylo “isn’t that kind of character” - the sumbitch murdered his loving father for reaching out to him in a dark contrast to Luke redeeming Anakin. That’s why if Rian Johnson actually a) wanted Kylo to end up as an irredeemable villain or b) had paid attention to TFA, he’d know the audience *should* think Kylo’s an irredeemable bastard. And I doubt he paid attention, because the character is not treated like a monstrous patricide but the story) or that he really envisioned Kylo staying evil all the way, since he himself cast doubt on that later in an interview, and since even Trevorrow’s DOTF script *still* had Kylo end up redeemed at the end, and I doubt staying evil was really in the cards.

    TFA’s already been the smarter deconstructive film - it simply went further than TLJ did by choosing a more damning target for Kylo, more symbolically casting the actual betrayal with the “light fades away” visuals, and even in the aftermath, since this patricidal Kylo then proceeds to torture Finn afterwards for no good reason. When TLJ ignores thta logic and tries to just say Kylo isn’t dedicated enough and that he needs to reel Rey “no” himself, that’s naturally going backwards rather than forwards - the more powerful statement has been rejected so that a weaker one can be put out instead.

    On Finn:

    I have to say, I don’t even respect the opinion that Finn in TFA isn’t motivated by the bigger picture - that requires too much ignoring blunt facts of TFA and too much of a double standard that screws over Finn when no one else would suffer the harsh bias of TLJ.

    It's bullshit. To me, holding that opinion means you let Rian Johnson convince you with blatant anti-Finn propaganda - and yes, I assume he’s a bad actor in this scenario, though I assume it’s simple creator favoritism rather than racism.

    No one in their right mind, who’s an honest creator in the situation, is going to look at Finn’s “Confession” scene to Rey and not notice that when she begs him to stay, he rejects her offer and leaves… or that what makes him come back is the Hosnian System being blown up.

    Anyone who takes note of that knows that “Finn getting involved with the Resistance” is now a resolved plot thread; his “I’m just here for Rey” line is then clearly about emphasizing the “extra” heroic actions he’ll take for Rey - that while he’ll join the good fight for the sake of the Galaxy, he’ll brave he’ll itself for her. It’s one of the things that makes Finn in TFA objectively more heroic than Luke in TLJ - he has greater empathy than Luke, and acts for the greater good than Luke does, as Finn shows in TDA when he twice prioritizes blowing up Starkiller Base over Rey’s safety.

    Otherwise the Confession scene wouldn’t be in the movie, and he wouldn’t be directed to prioritize the mission first twice.

    Secondly, no one in their right mind, who’s an ambitious and honest creator in the situation, is going to think that “Finn must take the whole film to learn to prioritize the Galaxy over Rey” is anything like “neccessary” since no one holds Han to that standard… or that a story that can be accurately summed up as “Finn and co. screw up and get everyone killed when it would have been better if they knew their place” is trying to make Finn inspiring or matter to the audience.

    I have to say that TLJ seems bound and determined to say Finn shouldn’t be the hero, while even TROS says “No, he *is*.”

    So, since Rian Johnson is clearly ambitious… I know he intentionally demoted Finn, intentionally denigrated his relationship with Rey, and intentionally retconned the story because he wanted Kylo to have Finn’s place and significance.

    No one gave a shit about Finn after TLJ except for his possession doff fans…. but far more people had given a shit about Finn after TFA, and since Abrams gave him the Force in TROS (and in a story that Boyega has heavily implied LFL was moving against), people still give more of a shit about Finn now…

    …unless they’re in the Story Group that supported TLJ, or Rian Johnson.

    That ain’t a coincidence.

    That’s a bunch of Ben Solo fans with insecurity.
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  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Alright, I’ve got a theory some of the difference here is that TFA is a much more “romantic” film, and that most fans view Star Wars “romantically”, while you and the few others who think TLJ set up Kylo as a more dedicated evil might be viewing it in a more “emotionally cold way.” Bare with me, I’m going to express some of my emotions on this to try and communicate the difference, but to some extent, I think it could be summarized this way: TFA shows much more concrete emotional beats while TLJ says more bluntly clear goals… but because there’s more substance to TFA and there’s a few double standards in TLJ, most other people more clearly saw TLJ going backwards on a lot of things.

    On Kylo:

    TFA’s much more deconstructive than TLJ for Kylo, though - killing Han when he offers redemption will always communicate that Kylo is damned more than saying no to Rey. We already know Kylo “isn’t that kind of character” - the sumbitch murdered his loving father for reaching out to him in a dark contrast to Luke redeeming Anakin. That’s why if Rian Johnson actually a) wanted Kylo to end up as an irredeemable villain or b) had paid attention to TFA, he’d know the audience *should* think Kylo’s an irredeemable bastard. And I doubt he paid attention, because the character is not treated like a monstrous patricide but the story) or that he really envisioned Kylo staying evil all the way, since he himself cast doubt on that later in an interview, and since even Trevorrow’s DOTF script *still* had Kylo end up redeemed at the end, and I doubt staying evil was really in the cards.

    TFA’s already been the smarter deconstructive film - it simply went further than TLJ did by choosing a more damning target for Kylo, more symbolically casting the actual betrayal with the “light fades away” visuals, and even in the aftermath, since this patricidal Kylo then proceeds to torture Finn afterwards for no good reason. When TLJ ignores thta logic and tries to just say Kylo isn’t dedicated enough and that he needs to reel Rey “no” himself, that’s naturally going backwards rather than forwards - the more powerful statement has been rejected so that a weaker one can be put out instead.

    On Finn:

    I have to say, I don’t even respect the opinion that Finn in TFA isn’t motivated by the bigger picture - that requires too much ignoring blunt facts of TFA and too much of a double standard that screws over Finn when no one else would suffer the harsh bias of TLJ.

    It's bullshit. To me, holding that opinion means you let Rian Johnson convince you with blatant anti-Finn propaganda - and yes, I assume he’s a bad actor in this scenario, though I assume it’s simple creator favoritism rather than racism.

    No one in their right mind, who’s an honest creator in the situation, is going to look at Finn’s “Confession” scene to Rey and not notice that when she begs him to stay, he rejects her offer and leaves… or that what makes him come back is the Hosnian System being blown up.

    Anyone who takes note of that knows that “Finn getting involved with the Resistance” is now a resolved plot thread; his “I’m just here for Rey” line is then clearly about emphasizing the “extra” heroic actions he’ll take for Rey - that while he’ll join the good fight for the sake of the Galaxy, he’ll brave he’ll itself for her. It’s one of the things that makes Finn in TFA objectively more heroic than Luke in TLJ - he has greater empathy than Luke, and acts for the greater good than Luke does, as Finn shows in TDA when he twice prioritizes blowing up Starkiller Base over Rey’s safety.

    Otherwise the Confession scene wouldn’t be in the movie, and he wouldn’t be directed to prioritize the mission first twice.

    Secondly, no one in their right mind, who’s an ambitious and honest creator in the situation, is going to think that “Finn must take the whole film to learn to prioritize the Galaxy over Rey” is anything like “neccessary” since no one holds Han to that standard… or that a story that can be accurately summed up as “Finn and co. screw up and get everyone killed when it would have been better if they knew their place” is trying to make Finn inspiring or matter to the audience.

    I have to say that TLJ seems bound and determined to say Finn shouldn’t be the hero, while even TROS says “No, he *is*.”

    So, since Rian Johnson is clearly ambitious… I know he intentionally demoted Finn, intentionally denigrated his relationship with Rey, and intentionally retconned the story because he wanted Kylo to have Finn’s place and significance.

    No one gave a shit about Finn after TLJ except for his possession doff fans…. but far more people had given a shit about Finn after TFA, and since Abrams gave him the Force in TROS (and in a story that Boyega has heavily implied LFL was moving against), people still give more of a shit about Finn now…

    …unless they’re in the Story Group that supported TLJ, or Rian Johnson.

    That ain’t a coincidence.

    That’s a bunch of Ben Solo fans with insecurity.
    Sorry, but I really don't know what to say at this point; feels like we saw different movies.
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  9. #114
    Extraordinary Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Tried to post a link to it, but cbr doesn't like reddit links. But it shows Rey's outfit being based almost completely off of Leia's outfit from Force Unleashed 2.

  10. #115
    Extraordinary Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    They do look a bit similar but Disney's LFL hasn't been shy about using inspiration from the older EU. Some of the early pieces of TFA concept art before the story was ironed out involved Darth Talon (Who would presumabely be moved 'closer' in time than the century-later setting of LEGACY) It was basically Lucas's idea. She would have had a role similar to Snoke's, by tempting Han and Leia's son to the dark side, but also serve a secret master, Uber (Who might've been Darth Maul).

    Given all the Kylo Ren name jokes (Due to it also being the name of a cartoon dog), I can only imagine how "Uber" would've gone.
    Last edited by ChrisIII; 03-16-2022 at 10:04 AM.
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  11. #116

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    I don't disagree with the OP, I just don't think it's insurmountable as they feel it is. Now that the trilogy is over they could fix it via hindsight. Similar to how the Clone Wars elevated the Prequels.
    Last edited by the illustrious mr. kenway; 03-16-2022 at 10:18 AM.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    I don't disagree with the OP, I just don't think it's insurmountable as they feel it is. Now that the trilogy is over they could fix it via hindsight. Similar to how the Clone Wars elevated the Prequels.
    Yeah, I would agree with that... I just don't think the way to repair it is with a Clone Wars-style formula of emphasizing and fleshing out the central conflict or the central character arcs that the story ended with.

    A story trying to make Rey and Kylo work as dual-leads and a couple is naturally going to deal with the inherent sexism, blandness, and prejudice of the story as implemented by LFL... but creating some stories where Kylo can act a bit like the Darth Vader 1980's Marvel comics had (where he's created a bunch of problem for the heroes to struggle with after he's gone) carries some serious potential, while Rey can probably be rehabilitated and rebuilt post-ST by moving as far away from Ben Solo and Kylo Ren as possible, and by likely not just being a "Luke substitute." Similarly, Finn can do great if they use the Force connection TROS had as well as the more Abrams-like desire ot make him relevant and dramatic, but needs to avoid any of the inherently condescending and poisonous nature of Rian Johnson's approach to him - including re-evaluating and likely re-positioning Rose so that she's not just an anchor designed to drag him down.

    Basically, I think there's still potential... but it's away from the more TLJ-centered ideas and concepts... which I fear are the only ones that LFL's current story leaders (Pablo Hiadlgo, etc.) want to pursue.

    Rey, Finn, Kylo, Poe, etc., they all don't need someone in charge of LFL whose only big tie-in idea to TROS is a bad story designed to white wash Ben Solo of killing *all* his fellow students while still making him un unlikable, uncomplicated prick, and they really don't need someone who thinks that Reylo was good or who gets defensive when John Boyega points out the blatant racism Finn got treated with.

    And that's before getting to how Luke probably needs to have more Grogu-situations where the spirit of him being a failed teacher is rejected even if technicalities allow the letter of the idea to pass; Star Wars will be infinitely better if the selfish, self-centered and apathetic coward of TLJ becomes more and more of an anomaly easily ignored.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

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  13. #118

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    I got into Star Wars from the Expanded Universe than the movies. So I'm cool with a timeskip for the sequel trilogy. Either my 10-20 year timeskip or Ascended's 100 year timeskip works.

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