SW ST aren't just bad movies, it also created a very dull era

[Slowpokeking]

Come on man, "true, from a certain point of view" was a hand wave to brush away the change that was made; it was obvious in the film itself and when you read about how the change came about in interviews it's doubly clear it wasn't the original intention.

No, the film makes perfect sense.

Obi Wan's goal in ANH was NOT to tell Luke the truth, but to convince Luke to go fight Vader. Of course he could not tell him about Vader being Luke's father, or anything bad about Anakin at all.

Not to say that he wasn't being honest at all before revealing himself. It fits his character even in ANH. Nor did he even bring up Anakin's name before Vader.

You can say that Leia being his sister is a bit odd, but it's far from a plot hole.

[thwhtGuardian]

No, the film makes perfect sense.

Obi Wan's goal in ANH was NOT to tell Luke the truth, but to convince Luke to go fight Vader. Of course he could not tell him about Vader being Luke's father, or anything bad about Anakin at all.

Not to say that he wasn't being honest at all before revealing himself. It fits his character even in ANH. Nor did he even bring up Anakin's name before Vader.

You can say that Leia being his sister is a bit odd, but it's far from a plot hole.

You're just trying to rationalize it, there are countless interviews that spell out that your view is dead wrong...it's a well known fact.

[Slowpokeking]

You're just trying to rationalize it, there are countless interviews that spell out that your view is dead wrong...it's a well known fact.

The canon itself proves it's logical, regardless what happens offscreen concept change. All the basic concept is NOT canon do you understand it?

If we put aside the concept change, why would Obi Wan tell Luke that Vader is Anakin when his goal was to let him confront Vader?

[thwhtGuardian]

The canon itself proves it's logical, regardless what happens offscreen concept change. All the basic concept is NOT canon do you understand it?

If we put aside the concept change, why would Obi Wan tell Luke that Vader is Anakin when his goal was to let him confront Vader?

"Regardless of what happens off screen concept change" I don't get why you're tying yourself into knots with this? What you just said is literally what a retcon is, that it worked and has its own logic doesn't change the fact of what it was.

As I said earlier retcons existing isn't an issue, all that matters is if the writing is good.

[Slowpokeking]

"Regardless of what happens off screen concept change" I don't get why you're tying yourself into knots with this? What you just said is literally what a retcon is, that it worked and has its own logic doesn't change the fact of what it was.

As I said earlier retcons existing isn't an issue, all that matters is if the writing is good.

Because these are not canon. As long as the changed can connect/being logically explained on screen, they doesn't have to be considered unless looking at the process of the making.

Actually drafts go through many many times for big projects, what we saw are also part of them, but it doesn't matter.

[thwhtGuardian]

Because these are not canon. As long as the changed can connect/being logically explained on screen, they doesn't have to be considered unless looking at the process of the making.

Actually drafts go through many many times for big projects, what we saw are also part of them, but it doesn't matter.

Then there are no such things as retcons and the word has no meaning.

You're being silly man.

[Slowpokeking]

Then there are no such things as retcons and the word has no meaning.

You're being silly man.

No, retcons are things which cannot be logically explained in universe due to concept change/mistakes/whatever problem the creators have.

Such as what DC/Marvel does all the time.

[thwhtGuardian]

No, retcons are things which cannot be logically explained in universe due to concept change/mistakes/whatever problem the creators have.

Such as what DC/Marvel does all the time.

Maybe that's your definition...but you don't personally get to decide that for the whole world. I posted the actual dictionary definition earlier that is used by literally everyone else who uses the English language.

[Sacred Knight]

A retcon is a retcon even if it makes sense. If it ends up making sense, its just a good retcon. That's what Vader/Anakin was. A very good retcon because the lack of strong detail of what was actually in the first film regarding Luke's father fully supported a change from original intent, and that change ended up becoming a backbone of the mythology. But nonetheless in the first film Obi-Wan straight up said Darth Vader killed Anakin Skywalker. This was at the time literal and fully George Lucas' intent. He changed his mind later. Its a retcon.

[Slowpokeking]

A retcon is a retcon even if it makes sense. If it ends up making sense, its just a good retcon. That's what Vader/Anakin was. A very good retcon because the lack of strong detail of what was actually in the first film regarding Luke's father fully supported a change from original intent, and that change ended up becoming a backbone of the mythology. But nonetheless in the first film Obi-Wan straight up said Darth Vader killed Anakin Skywalker. This was at the time literal and fully George Lucas' intent. He changed his mind later. Its a retcon.

It's also different.

A good retcon is that the plot couldn't make logical connection in universe, which caused certain damage to the story, but overall it expanded/developed the story in a good way.

Such as changing a lot of silly origin of those early heroes, or make silly villains into a well developed one.

But it still should be very careful to use because even if it served a good purpose in the end, it still damaged the story's consistency and seriousness.

If the change is entirely offscreen and can be explained in universe, then there is no such problem and it's been used all the time. You know every first draft is terrible, and writers keep get better during their writing.

[thwhtGuardian]

It's also different.

A good retcon is that the plot couldn't make logical connection in universe, which caused certain damage to the story, but overall it expanded/developed the story in a good way.

Such as changing a lot of silly origin of those early heroes, or make silly villains into a well developed one.

But it still should be very careful to use because even if it served a good purpose in the end, it still damaged the story's consistency and seriousness.

If the change is entirely offscreen and can be explained in universe, then there is no such problem and it's been used all the time. You know every first draft is terrible, and writers keep get better during their writing.

That's actually not in the definition...like at all. Just own that you have your own head canon on what is and isn't a retcon that is totally and completely divorced from how the entire rest of the world uses the word.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I don't disagree with the OP but I don't think its as insurmountable as they make out. You just new writers/artists to come in and flesh it out/fix it etc. That's what most writers do for Marvel anyway so just have them do it for Star Wars.

[Agent Z]

These comments surprise me. The prequels didn't have a more coherent story or better dialogue, or acting, or special effects, or characterization. They did have a more original storyline and more diverse planets but that's about it. "I hate sand" is worse than any dialogue in the prequels.

Seriously, when did people start saying the prequels were good? Is this another "new is bad so let's pretend old is good"? I agree Lucasfilm dropped the ball with Finn real bad. But that doesn't make the prequels good. Rey being boring doesn't make Padme's submissive characterization less sexist. A repetitive plot in TFA doesn't make tPM or AotC more coherent

Padme wasn't submissive and her falling for Anakin wasn't a good thing, as Revenge of the Sith shows. The prequels have issues, but it was very clear that Anakin and Padme's relationship and the way it ended was not something to be romanticized.

[Agent Z]

The PT's plot only makes sense in theory to me. Palpatine tricking everyone was too unbelievable.

Not that unbelievable compared to real life. Palpatine's rise to power is very similar to how real life dictators take advantage of legitimate societal problems and promise an easy solution to bamboozle the public into giving them unlimited control. He offered them easy scapegoats first in the form of the separatists and then the Jedi whom the public were growing less fond of.

Palpatine beat the Jedi because he was more politically savvy than they were.

As if the Jedi wouldn't be suspicious about a bounty hunter hired by Gunray to kill Padme being the template for the Republic's surprise clone army.

It's not that they weren't suspicious, it's that they couldn't afford to look a gift horse in the mouth. The Republic didn't have a standing army and a draft would be unpopular.

Or Anakin going from 'what have I done' to 'I'll do whatever you ask' in a few minutes. Others improving the PT era through extra material doesn't mean the trilogy was great

You yourself pointed out that he slaughtered an entire tribe in the second film. Anakin was already established as vulnerable to corruption where his loved where concerned.

All 3 movies are responsible for the ST failing, not just TJL. TFA was too unoriginal and TROS just capitulated to excessive whining but for the wrong reasons. And the PT story was not that good.

TLJ was the highest grossing movie in the year of its release. I'd love to have a "failure" like that on my resume.

[thwhtGuardian]

Not that unbelievable compared to real life. Palpatine's rise to power is very similar to how real life dictators take advantage of legitimate societal problems and promise an easy solution to bamboozle the public into giving them unlimited control. He offered them easy scapegoats first in the form of the separatists and then the Jedi whom the public were growing less fond of.

Palpatine beat the Jedi because he was more politically savvy than they were.



It's not that they weren't suspicious, it's that they couldn't afford to look a gift horse in the mouth. The Republic didn't have a standing army and a draft would be unpopular.



You yourself pointed out that he slaughtered an entire tribe in the second film. Anakin was already established as vulnerable to corruption where his loved where concerned.





TLJ was the highest grossing movie in the year of its release. I'd love to have a "failure" like that on my resume.

Yeah, as much as I loath the sequels...they did make a boat load of money.