SW ST aren't just bad movies, it also created a very dull era

[thwhtGuardian]

That's what Star Wars Resistance aimed to do and it wasn't good.

It also wasn't Filoni though.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

That's what Star Wars Resistance aimed to do and it wasn't good.

I never saw it so I'll take your word for it. I'm more into Rebels or Clone Wars so just lean towards that. 1 out of 3 is still good odds.

[godisawesome]

I never saw it so I'll take your word for it. I'm more into Rebels or Clone Wars so just lean towards that. 1 out of 3 is still good odds.

Resistance is maybe the most obvious victim of the ST’s more lackluster setting decisions (a problem with both directors) and timing, since it came out after TLJ and had to deal with the apathy that film left in its wake alongside the undermining of TFA, the main film it tried to honor.

And I still feel like some small part of LFL itself still thinks something along the lines of “good” or “it’s a good thing I never got my hopes up” whenever it’s pointed out that, contrary to what anyone else would expect, they aren’t doing anything with any of the 4 major new characters TFA introduced - I’d bet good money there’s a mix of confirmation bias working against and denial at regarding Finn being the more successful male lead than Ben Solo, or Poe and Rey being more popular and successful before TLJ.

I think LFL themselves on some level refuse to look beyond Ben Solo, and since he’s dead and a divisive character, they refuse to consider where they screwed up with a home run scenario after TFA.

[Immortal Weapon]

Resistance is maybe the most obvious victim of the ST’s more lackluster setting decisions (a problem with both directors) and timing, since it came out after TLJ and had to deal with the apathy that film left in its wake alongside the undermining of TFA, the main film it tried to honor.

And I still feel like some small part of LFL itself still thinks something along the lines of “good” or “it’s a good thing I never got my hopes up” whenever it’s pointed out that, contrary to what anyone else would expect, they aren’t doing anything with any of the 4 major new characters TFA introduced - I’d bet good money there’s a mix of confirmation bias working against and denial at regarding Finn being the more successful male lead than Ben Solo, or Poe and Rey being more popular and successful before TLJ.

I think LFL themselves on some level refuse to look beyond Ben Solo, and since he’s dead and a divisive character, they refuse to consider where they screwed up with a home run scenario after TFA.

It was a good thing that Resistance ended when it did. I would have done the show no good if it tried to salvage Rise of the Skywalker.

[Jekyll]

My one year old daughter will never know of this heartless, visionless, trilogy. The sequel to ROTJ will be The Mandalorian , this is the way

[BeastieRunner]

My one year old daughter will never know of this heartless, visionless, trilogy. The sequel to ROTJ will be The Mandalorian , this is the way

This is actually something I agree with.

As a long time comic fan, there are stories or changes I greatly dislike but I can safely ignore to make my own head canon. Sometimes they even get retconned away! Sometimes I drop the title and move on to something else that was even better. Sometimes it takes a new writer, editor, or creative direction to get me back on board. It doesn't change my previous experience and memories.

With Star Wars coming up on 45 years and getting so big, your bound to have disliked stories and continuity issues. It still churns out money. Until the brand takes a major nosedive monetarily, major changes (like the Disney sale and the creating of the Legends continuity) I don't think we'll see major changes.

I enjoyed the ST. It wasn't perfect and have some issues with it but I still enjoyed it. I might debate that with people to get them to understand but I don't have the right to tell them they cannot have a different opinion or idea of what is happening.

[godisawesome]

This is actually something I agree with.

As a long time comic fan, there are stories or changes I greatly dislike but I can safely ignore to make my own head canon. Sometimes they even get retconned away! Sometimes I drop the title and move on to something else that was even better. Sometimes it takes a new writer, editor, or creative direction to get me back on board. It doesn't change my previous experience and memories.

With Star Wars coming up on 45 years and getting so big, your bound to have disliked stories and continuity issues. It still churns out money. Until the brand takes a major nosedive monetarily, major changes (like the Disney sale and the creating of the Legends continuity) I don't think we'll see major changes.

I enjoyed the ST. It wasn't perfect and have some issues with it but I still enjoyed it. I might debate that with people to get them to understand but I don't have the right to tell them they cannot have a different opinion or idea of what is happening.

The irony to me about the ST is how much it and its fans/individual films’ fans are at war with itself/each other. It’s not like the OT, where most everyone has a consensus about strengths, weaknesses, goals, and priorities. The ST is basically two diametrically opposing films and visions of the ST, with a half-hearted and schizophrenic compromise at the end.

A third of those who liked the ST when it started out now loathe Ben Solo as an embodiment of hypocritical and bland pandering; that for all that LFL was whispering sweet words of equality and depth of character, they worshipped and promoted a shallow version of Kylo because he was a Solo, and took a crap on Finn and prostituted Rey to get there.

Another third has so much contempt for the “too goody-goody” Rey, Finn, and the OT3 they endorsed Finn being shat on, Rey being pimped out, and sacrificing the OT3 for Ben because they prefer that more angst-driven and self-centered genre of fiction.

And another third just wants to watch some damn Star Wars, but gets annoyed and frustrated by the complaints of the other two.

It *is* a comic book fan fight; it’s Barry Allen fan versus Wally West fans, but with a single trilogy of films.

As a TFA fan, I hope that eventually LFL realized that TLJ was a misstep at best, that Finn’s worth a lot more than they wanted him to be, and that for Rey’s sake and the franchises, they need to treat Ben Solo as a liability and Kylo Ren as a villain going forward… but I understand why that’s unlikely to happen.

Hell, TLJ fans get triggered anytime someone points out Kylo’s a Neo-Nazi School Shooter who’s unsympathetic; they ain’t ready for Ben Solo being ignored while Finn stops being ignored and sabotaged.

[WebLurker]

The irony to me about the ST is how much it and its fans/individual films’ fans are at war with itself/each other. It’s not like the OT, where most everyone has a consensus about strengths, weaknesses, goals, and priorities. The ST is basically two diametrically opposing films and visions of the ST, with a half-hearted and schizophrenic compromise at the end.

Weird, I always thought that the first two fit like gloves and that only the third movie went off the rails. It really felt like JJ Abrams wanted to make his own trilogy and tried to stuff his own Episodes 8 and 9 into one movie, at the expense of any form of cohesion to the previous ones. (Course, I am one of those weirdos who was okay with Rey being the Emperor's granddaughter; shoot me, but I love the irony that it creates in her journey's end, for a series that so often focused on the past steering one's destiny and bloodlines being important, having a hero who had full agency in deciding her fate despite everything pointing to her being something else gave the ending some punch it wouldn't have had otherwise.)

As a TFA fan, I hope that eventually LFL realized that TLJ was a misstep at best, that Finn’s worth a lot more than they wanted him to be, and that for Rey’s sake and the franchises, they need to treat Ben Solo as a liability and Kylo Ren as a villain going forward… but I understand why that’s unlikely to happen.

Hell, TLJ fans get triggered anytime someone points out Kylo’s a Neo-Nazi School Shooter who’s unsympathetic; they ain’t ready for Ben Solo being ignored while Finn stops being ignored and sabotaged.

I must be weird. I believe that Last Jedi is the best of the sequel trilogy and within the top of the series as a whole. However, I absolutely hated the Kylo Ren redemption subplot that the trilogy ended up with. Heck, the message I took from Last Jedi was that Kylo Ren was beyond redemption (due to his refusal to take it), with the backstory we get working to add some character depth (few people are pure evil and everyone seems themselves as the hero of their own story) and as a misdirect to drive the lesson home (we think that of course he'll be redeemed, since that's how the other movies worked, which isn't a realistic idea). Heck, I'd argue that Rise of Skywalker was much worse in terms of Finn having little to do. It was certainly the point where the whole "tragedy of Kylo Ren" shifted from being a side point to explain his motivations to hijacking the trilogy (arguably only Rey managed to stay the central character from beginning to end).

So, I guess, long story short, we're in agreement about the broad strokes (the series was set up to be about the stormtrooper and the scavenger and shouldn't have lost that focus, Kylo Ren should have stayed the villain), but disagree on where things went wrong, not to mention seeing Last Jedi in opposite ways.

[godisawesome]

Weird, I always thought that the first two fit like gloves and that only the third movie went off the rails. It really felt like JJ Abrams wanted to make his own trilogy and tried to stuff his own Episodes 8 and 9 into one movie, at the expense of any form of cohesion to the previous ones. (Course, I am one of those weirdos who was okay with Rey being the Emperor's granddaughter; shoot me, but I love the irony that it creates in her journey's end, for a series that so often focused on the past steering one's destiny and bloodlines being important, having a hero who had full agency in deciding her fate despite everything pointing to her being something else gave the ending some punch it wouldn't have had otherwise.)



I must be weird. I believe that Last Jedi is the best of the sequel trilogy and within the top of the series as a whole. However, I absolutely hated the Kylo Ren redemption subplot that the trilogy ended up with. Heck, the message I took from Last Jedi was that Kylo Ren was beyond redemption (due to his refusal to take it), with the backstory we get working to add some character depth (few people are pure evil and everyone seems themselves as the hero of their own story) and as a misdirect to drive the lesson home (we think that of course he'll be redeemed, since that's how the other movies worked, which isn't a realistic idea). Heck, I'd argue that Rise of Skywalker was much worse in terms of Finn having little to do. It was certainly the point where the whole "tragedy of Kylo Ren" shifted from being a side point to explain his motivations to hijacking the trilogy (arguably only Rey managed to stay the central character from beginning to end).

So, I guess, long story short, we're in agreement about the broad strokes (the series was set up to be about the stormtrooper and the scavenger and shouldn't have lost that focus, Kylo Ren should have stayed the villain), but disagree on where things went wrong, not to mention seeing Last Jedi in opposite ways.

I think the big breaking point is a matter of priorities and stylistic tastes - which is where my earlier, more insulting comment about “contempt” applies, since I don’t see TLJ fans as loathing TFA…

…But rather having an “active apathy” towards many of the core truths of TFA because of stylistic changes and focuses.

I don’t believe any TLJ fan actually cared about Rey’s POV from TFA, or about Finn’s significance and POV from TFA, or about the real dramatic weight of Kylo murdering Han after violating Rey and before torturing Finn mid-fight. I also tend to think that most TLJ fans aren’t as detail oriented when it comes to Luke’s characterization RO the military plot either.

And I don’t think any of that is wrong… but I also think a more natural reaction to that apathy intruding on the story and often pushing things at the expense of others is either greater apathy or anger.

Like… nothing Kylo does in TLJ can surpass what he does in TFA. Telling a stranger girl “no” when she asks you be redeemed is bupkis compared to murdering your loving father to be more evil… and in no way will an audience learn to root against Kylo more than when the suffering of Rey and Finn is for the and center…

…Unless, on some level, the audience member doesn’t really care about either the suffering and perspective of the new heroes, or just doesn’t want to root against Kylo.

And I think a similar “program” applies to everything else - TLJ is rife with myopic, uni-directional storytelling that’s shallow compared to TFA, unless the view of an audience member is also myopic, uni-directional, and shallow.

I do think that more people who watched TLJ and liked it wound up opposite of you on the Kylo question - LFL themselves seem like the biggest example, but I also think that TLJ story, by ignoring Rey and Finn’s perspectives and downplaying how evil he was emotionally ultimately undermined most of the evil decisions made intellectually. Basically… when Rian Johnson asked audiences to forget about a bunch of the things Kylo did in order for TLJ’s story to work, more took that as a sign that nothing he did evil should really count than thought it was actually reinforcing the story.

(I also think John Boyega public ally venting his issues at LFL and defending Abrams should be taken as rather definitive with regards to LFL and TROS - especially given what LFL has done with Finn and commented on Boyega. I think LFL wanted to screw over Finn from TLJ onwards, and that TROS might be more notable to you because Abrams was trying to fight back and give him plot significance and respect - the two things LFL can’t abide because it makes it clear how pathetic Ben Solo and arguably TLJ Luke are.)

[WebLurker]

I think the big breaking point is a matter of priorities and stylistic tastes - which is where my earlier, more insulting comment about “contempt” applies, since I don’t see TLJ fans as loathing TFA…

…But rather having an “active apathy” towards many of the core truths of TFA because of stylistic changes and focuses.

I don’t believe any TLJ fan actually cared about Rey’s POV from TFA, or about Finn’s significance and POV from TFA, or about the real dramatic weight of Kylo murdering Han after violating Rey and before torturing Finn mid-fight. I also tend to think that most TLJ fans aren’t as detail oriented when it comes to Luke’s characterization RO the military plot either.

And I don’t think any of that is wrong… but I also think a more natural reaction to that apathy intruding on the story and often pushing things at the expense of others is either greater apathy or anger.

Like… nothing Kylo does in TLJ can surpass what he does in TFA. Telling a stranger girl “no” when she asks you be redeemed is bupkis compared to murdering your loving father to be more evil… and in no way will an audience learn to root against Kylo more than when the suffering of Rey and Finn is for the and center…

…Unless, on some level, the audience member doesn’t really care about either the suffering and perspective of the new heroes, or just doesn’t want to root against Kylo.

And I think a similar “program” applies to everything else - TLJ is rife with myopic, uni-directional storytelling that’s shallow compared to TFA, unless the view of an audience member is also myopic, uni-directional, and shallow.

I do think that more people who watched TLJ and liked it wound up opposite of you on the Kylo question - LFL themselves seem like the biggest example, but I also think that TLJ story, by ignoring Rey and Finn’s perspectives and downplaying how evil he was emotionally ultimately undermined most of the evil decisions made intellectually. Basically… when Rian Johnson asked audiences to forget about a bunch of the things Kylo did in order for TLJ’s story to work, more took that as a sign that nothing he did evil should really count than thought it was actually reinforcing the story.

(I also think John Boyega public ally venting his issues at LFL and defending Abrams should be taken as rather definitive with regards to LFL and TROS - especially given what LFL has done with Finn and commented on Boyega. I think LFL wanted to screw over Finn from TLJ onwards, and that TROS might be more notable to you because Abrams was trying to fight back and give him plot significance and respect - the two things LFL can’t abide because it makes it clear how pathetic Ben Solo and arguably TLJ Luke are.)

Dunno what to say; literally no common ground to relate on.

[godisawesome]

Dunno what to say; literally no common ground to relate on.

And I think that’s endemic of the issue; TFA was the most “empathetic” film of the ST, in that it understood different perspectives of its audience and character… and even I’d argue TFA still suffered greatly from Abrams’s apathy and contempt in some areas, even though I think they were manageable.

TLJ introduced a myopia and greater apathy that still “infects” the era a bit - LFL doesn’t want anyone to care about Finn, and LFL still struggles to get behind Rey because her perspective would clash with the perspective they want the audience to have, and LFL is still halting in its approach towards how to connect things from the ST to other elements because of the lack of common ground.

[WebLurker]

And I think that’s endemic of the issue; TFA was the most “empathetic” film of the ST, in that it understood different perspectives of its audience and character… and even I’d argue TFA still suffered greatly from Abrams’s apathy and contempt in some areas, even though I think they were manageable.

TLJ introduced a myopia and greater apathy that still “infects” the era a bit - LFL doesn’t want anyone to care about Finn, and LFL still struggles to get behind Rey because her perspective would clash with the perspective they want the audience to have, and LFL is still halting in its approach towards how to connect things from the ST to other elements because of the lack of common ground.

More like I don't think the movies say what you think they say, beyond conceding that a lot of stuff did get lost in the shuffle as things went on and it's pretty messy after the first couple installments.

[godisawesome]

More like I don't think the movies say what you think they say, beyond conceding that a lot of stuff did get lost in the shuffle as things went on and it's pretty messy after the first couple installments.

And you don’t see those things because TLJ’s myopia isn’t that far from your own - with no insult meant to you, or to *all* of TLJ’s fans, since a lot of TLJ’s appeal runs off a dramatic algorithm and appeal that people are perfectly justified to like without being racist, sexist, elitist, or just plain biased… but there are TLJ fans, and some LFL-affiliated creators, for whom the appeal of TLJ played into racist, sexist, elitist and just plain biased views they had.

Flat out, John Boyega could tell he and his character were screwed, and while Abrams’s camp has mostly maintained professional silence out of respect for the rules and mores of the industry, his editor did, in a moment of candor, acknowledge that TLJ screwed over much of TFA’s work, while Hamill’s own valid criticisms were something LFL attempted to use to salve the incoming criticism about Luke, and were shocked at how many people agreed with him about it.

Bluntly, TLJ DOES change, ignore, downplay, and at times contradict TFA and that must be acknowledged; where the debate SHOULD BE is on whether those changes, ignorances, downplayings, and contradictions fall within the reasonable and expected deviation of regular dramatic storytelling.

And I’d say they *can* fall into the reasonable and expected deviations… but only if there was no interest, empathy, or observation on the actual story of Finn, Rey, Kylo, Poe, or even Hux in TFA.

Someone can’t tell me they paid attention to TFA and that “Finn only cares about Rey and is unaware of the bigger picture” or “Rey would find Kylo sympathetic” or “Poe’s a hot headed Latino pilot” or “Rey and Finn’s relationship isn’t developed or appealing enough to be worth more than some obligatory acknowledgments it existed” in the same sentence.

Paying attention to TFA precludes accepting TLJks starting point for all the new characters.

[Alan2099]

And you don’t see those things because TLJ’s myopia isn’t that far from your own - with no insult meant to you, or to *all* of TLJ’s fans, since a lot of TLJ’s appeal runs off a dramatic algorithm and appeal that people are perfectly justified to like without being racist, sexist, elitist, or just plain biased… but there are TLJ fans, and some LFL-affiliated creators, for whom the appeal of TLJ played into racist, sexist, elitist and just plain biased views they had.

You can stick, "no insult meant" at the beginning of it, but following it up with "Racists, sexist, and biased people like this movie., I'm not saying everybody who likes this movie is racists, sexist, etc." doesn't make it sound any less insulting.

[WebLurker]

And you don’t see those things because TLJ’s myopia isn’t that far from your own - with no insult meant to you, or to *all* of TLJ’s fans, since a lot of TLJ’s appeal runs off a dramatic algorithm and appeal that people are perfectly justified to like without being racist, sexist, elitist, or just plain biased… but there are TLJ fans, and some LFL-affiliated creators, for whom the appeal of TLJ played into racist, sexist, elitist and just plain biased views they had.

There's no way to call someone myopic and it not being insulting. And if you don't think someone is "racist, sexist, elitist, or just plain biased," why the heck bring it up in the first place?

Flat out, John Boyega could tell he and his character were screwed, and while Abrams’s camp has mostly maintained professional silence out of respect for the rules and mores of the industry, his editor did, in a moment of candor, acknowledge that TLJ screwed over much of TFA’s work, while Hamill’s own valid criticisms were something LFL attempted to use to salve the incoming criticism about Luke, and were shocked at how many people agreed with him about it.

Bluntly, TLJ DOES change, ignore, downplay, and at times contradict TFA and that must be acknowledged; where the debate SHOULD BE is on whether those changes, ignorances, downplayings, and contradictions fall within the reasonable and expected deviation of regular dramatic storytelling.

And I’d say they *can* fall into the reasonable and expected deviations… but only if there was no interest, empathy, or observation on the actual story of Finn, Rey, Kylo, Poe, or even Hux in TFA.

Someone can’t tell me they paid attention to TFA and that “Finn only cares about Rey and is unaware of the bigger picture” or “Rey would find Kylo sympathetic” or “Poe’s a hot headed Latino pilot” or “Rey and Finn’s relationship isn’t developed or appealing enough to be worth more than some obligatory acknowledgments it existed” in the same sentence.

Paying attention to TFA precludes accepting TLJks starting point for all the new characters.

All I'm getting from this is that you didn't like the movie, therefore anyone who did is wrong or doesn't understand how things work.