Originally Posted by
godisawesome
Alright, I’ve got a theory some of the difference here is that TFA is a much more “romantic” film, and that most fans view Star Wars “romantically”, while you and the few others who think TLJ set up Kylo as a more dedicated evil might be viewing it in a more “emotionally cold way.” Bare with me, I’m going to express some of my emotions on this to try and communicate the difference, but to some extent, I think it could be summarized this way: TFA shows much more concrete emotional beats while TLJ says more bluntly clear goals… but because there’s more substance to TFA and there’s a few double standards in TLJ, most other people more clearly saw TLJ going backwards on a lot of things.
On Kylo:
TFA’s much more deconstructive than TLJ for Kylo, though - killing Han when he offers redemption will always communicate that Kylo is damned more than saying no to Rey. We already know Kylo “isn’t that kind of character” - the sumbitch murdered his loving father for reaching out to him in a dark contrast to Luke redeeming Anakin. That’s why if Rian Johnson actually a) wanted Kylo to end up as an irredeemable villain or b) had paid attention to TFA, he’d know the audience *should* think Kylo’s an irredeemable bastard. And I doubt he paid attention, because the character is not treated like a monstrous patricide but the story) or that he really envisioned Kylo staying evil all the way, since he himself cast doubt on that later in an interview, and since even Trevorrow’s DOTF script *still* had Kylo end up redeemed at the end, and I doubt staying evil was really in the cards.
TFA’s already been the smarter deconstructive film - it simply went further than TLJ did by choosing a more damning target for Kylo, more symbolically casting the actual betrayal with the “light fades away” visuals, and even in the aftermath, since this patricidal Kylo then proceeds to torture Finn afterwards for no good reason. When TLJ ignores thta logic and tries to just say Kylo isn’t dedicated enough and that he needs to reel Rey “no” himself, that’s naturally going backwards rather than forwards - the more powerful statement has been rejected so that a weaker one can be put out instead.
On Finn:
I have to say, I don’t even respect the opinion that Finn in TFA isn’t motivated by the bigger picture - that requires too much ignoring blunt facts of TFA and too much of a double standard that screws over Finn when no one else would suffer the harsh bias of TLJ.
It's bullshit. To me, holding that opinion means you let Rian Johnson convince you with blatant anti-Finn propaganda - and yes, I assume he’s a bad actor in this scenario, though I assume it’s simple creator favoritism rather than racism.
No one in their right mind, who’s an honest creator in the situation, is going to look at Finn’s “Confession” scene to Rey and not notice that when she begs him to stay, he rejects her offer and leaves… or that what makes him come back is the Hosnian System being blown up.
Anyone who takes note of that knows that “Finn getting involved with the Resistance” is now a resolved plot thread; his “I’m just here for Rey” line is then clearly about emphasizing the “extra” heroic actions he’ll take for Rey - that while he’ll join the good fight for the sake of the Galaxy, he’ll brave he’ll itself for her. It’s one of the things that makes Finn in TFA objectively more heroic than Luke in TLJ - he has greater empathy than Luke, and acts for the greater good than Luke does, as Finn shows in TDA when he twice prioritizes blowing up Starkiller Base over Rey’s safety.
Otherwise the Confession scene wouldn’t be in the movie, and he wouldn’t be directed to prioritize the mission first twice.
Secondly, no one in their right mind, who’s an ambitious and honest creator in the situation, is going to think that “Finn must take the whole film to learn to prioritize the Galaxy over Rey” is anything like “neccessary” since no one holds Han to that standard… or that a story that can be accurately summed up as “Finn and co. screw up and get everyone killed when it would have been better if they knew their place” is trying to make Finn inspiring or matter to the audience.
I have to say that TLJ seems bound and determined to say Finn shouldn’t be the hero, while even TROS says “No, he *is*.”
So, since Rian Johnson is clearly ambitious… I know he intentionally demoted Finn, intentionally denigrated his relationship with Rey, and intentionally retconned the story because he wanted Kylo to have Finn’s place and significance.
No one gave a shit about Finn after TLJ except for his possession doff fans…. but far more people had given a shit about Finn after TFA, and since Abrams gave him the Force in TROS (and in a story that Boyega has heavily implied LFL was moving against), people still give more of a shit about Finn now…
…unless they’re in the Story Group that supported TLJ, or Rian Johnson.
That ain’t a coincidence.
That’s a bunch of Ben Solo fans with insecurity.