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  1. #91
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    I'm not going to buy either book but i think it's kind of a sad state of affairs that the general comicbook buying audience is telling us that the only circumstance by which they'll ever give a crap about Sam is if he's operating under the Captain America mantle and people are just ok with that


    I understand Sam being Cap allows for him the best chance to get significantly showcased but if he were my favorite character i'd feel like it's just a really shallow or hollow victory to know that outside of him being Cap people generally couldn't care less about him.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by classicgmer View Post
    I'm not going to buy either book but i think it's kind of a sad state of affairs that the general comicbook buying audience is telling us that the only circumstance by which they'll ever give a crap about Sam is if he's operating under the Captain America mantle and people are just ok with that

    I understand Sam being Cap allows for him the best chance to get significantly showcased but if he were my favorite character i'd feel like it's just a really shallow or hollow victory to know that outside of him being Cap people generally couldn't care less about him.
    No people are not okay with it.

    It's a collection of factors that play into it.

    Example

    Sam as CA did not sniff below 20K until issue 19 nearing the end of his run. Because that CA allows for extra issues to be ordered even if they DON'T sell. Because there is the HOPE for a store to jack up the price if they become a collector's target.

    Sam as Falcon is NOT going to do that. He is going to get orders enough to SELLOUT with no reorder. That is good if you are Image, Valiant, Dynamite and others. That seems to be NOT good for Marvel or DC who do NOT care how many unsold books are on the shelf. They got their money from the orders.


    Editors-this is where the REAL issue is at-we can get nonstop volumes of Moon Knight or Carol Danvers or we can see characters NOBODY on the planet asked for get books. Heck at Dc we have seen them dig up folks who have NOT been in comics since the 70s and they get books.

    Yet we don't see that with Sam. Part of that is editors NOT listening or looking for pitches or rejecting them. The last Nadia WASP book was originally pitched as DC's Bumblebee book.


    And then we got fans who will do some of the greatest routine to not even TRY these books that they yell for. I rather hear a person say I tried it and didn't like it versus why can't he be Falcon and never bother with the book.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    No people are not okay with it.

    It's a collection of factors that play into it.

    Example

    Sam as CA did not sniff below 20K until issue 19 nearing the end of his run. Because that CA allows for extra issues to be ordered even if they DON'T sell. Because there is the HOPE for a store to jack up the price if they become a collector's target.

    Sam as Falcon is NOT going to do that. He is going to get orders enough to SELLOUT with no reorder. That is good if you are Image, Valiant, Dynamite and others. That seems to be NOT good for Marvel or DC who do NOT care how many unsold books are on the shelf. They got their money from the orders.


    Editors-this is where the REAL issue is at-we can get nonstop volumes of Moon Knight or Carol Danvers or we can see characters NOBODY on the planet asked for get books. Heck at Dc we have seen them dig up folks who have NOT been in comics since the 70s and they get books.

    Yet we don't see that with Sam. Part of that is editors NOT listening or looking for pitches or rejecting them. The last Nadia WASP book was originally pitched as DC's Bumblebee book.


    And then we got fans who will do some of the greatest routine to not even TRY these books that they yell for. I rather hear a person say I tried it and didn't like it versus why can't he be Falcon and never bother with the book.
    I'll try both. But Marvel never really gave Sam a proper push as Falcon. If you want these characters to work, you put top notch creative teams on them. Marvel doesn't. Then they wonder why they don't take off.

    Another issue is we just had him as Cap 5 years ago. If you want to do it, fine. But do so when Cap 4 is hitting theatres. Plus, apart from United States of Captain America, Steve has pretty much been put on the backburner.

    It's the turn around on these sorts of stories that annoys me. Its like an endless round of musical chairs and I am NOT a fan of shared identities. It'll be like me pinching another's person's identity and running around as that person because, well, identities aren't individual. Not at Marvel it seems.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somecrazyaussie View Post
    I'll try both. But Marvel never really gave Sam a proper push as Falcon. If you want these characters to work, you put top notch creative teams on them. Marvel doesn't. Then they wonder why they don't take off.

    Another issue is we just had him as Cap 5 years ago. If you want to do it, fine. But do so when Cap 4 is hitting theatres. Plus, apart from United States of Captain America, Steve has pretty much been put on the backburner.

    It's the turn around on these sorts of stories that annoys me. Its like an endless round of musical chairs and I am NOT a fan of shared identities. It'll be like me pinching another's person's identity and running around as that person because, well, identities aren't individual. Not at Marvel it seems.
    Another thing for me is with either Sam or all these other Captains in United States of Captain America...is that Steve has not that long ago made it clear he doesn't think anyone else should be Captain America.

    After Bucky stopped being Cap Steve was seriously considering NOT coming back to it when Nick Fury played his manipulative games and got a guy named David Rickford to take up the mantle but he nearly got killed by AIM and had to be saved by Steve. Who then convinced him to give it up because he would get himself killed.

    https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/David...rd_(Earth-616)

    So yeah...Steve being all 'You can be Captain America and you can be Captain America and you can be Captain America...' Flies in the face of what happened in this story.

    https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Capta...ca_Vol_1_615.1

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by classicgmer View Post
    I'm not going to buy either book but i think it's kind of a sad state of affairs that the general comicbook buying audience is telling us that the only circumstance by which they'll ever give a crap about Sam is if he's operating under the Captain America mantle and people are just ok with that


    I understand Sam being Cap allows for him the best chance to get significantly showcased but if he were my favorite character i'd feel like it's just a really shallow or hollow victory to know that outside of him being Cap people generally couldn't care less about him.
    I agree with this. Sums up my argument perfectly.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    Can they also go after left wing scumbags? I would love to see Steve, Sam and a bunch of their friends drop into a city where the left wing rioters are burning businesses and threatening the people and start busting skulls.

    As an aside to that...I want to see those groups...no matter what side of the political spectrum...getting some super powers form Power Broker, Cross, Malus or whoever.
    I'd like to see Marvel bring back Anti-Man and return him to pre-Ewing characterization, i.e., depict him as the unstable, crazy powerful Leftwing extremist. No, this wouldn't be a fight that either Sam, Steve or their immediate circle of allies win, but I'd be totally ok with that. I think idealistic heroes should face opponents who crush them like ants and who get them to question whether or not they're truly fighting on the right side (sorry, pun).
    Last edited by JudicatorPrime; 01-20-2022 at 06:00 PM.

  7. #97

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    I’ll try it but Cap’s last run was boring! Why doesn’t Marvel go back to Captain America and the Falcon? That way they both get spotlighted as themselves in one book. It was one of my favorite books in the 70’s.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by JudicatorPrime View Post
    I'd like to see Marvel bring back Anti-Man and return him to pre-Ewing characterization, i.e., depict him as the unstable, crazy powerful Leftwing extremist. No, this wouldn't be a fight that either Sam, Steve or their immediate circle of allies win, but I'd be totally ok with that. I think idealistic heroes should face opponents who crush them like ants and who get them to question whether or not they're truly fighting on the right side (sorry, pun).
    That's a good idea. My real issue is if politics is going to be brought into it then show both sides....and both sides have some world class a-holes...so portray that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreaded Porcupine View Post
    I’ll try it but Cap’s last run was boring! Why doesn’t Marvel go back to Captain America and the Falcon? That way they both get spotlighted as themselves in one book. It was one of my favorite books in the 70’s.
    With that...if they wanted to do a solo Falcon story they could either have Steve take a back seat for however many issues. Or they could write Sam out at the end of an arc and with a one shot or limited series tell that story then have him come back to the Cap book after that story is told,
    Last edited by Chris0013; 01-20-2022 at 06:56 PM.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris0013 View Post
    Can they also go after left wing scumbags? I would love to see Steve, Sam and a bunch of their friends drop into a city where the left wing rioters are burning businesses and threatening the people and start busting skulls.

    As an aside to that...I want to see those groups...no matter what side of the political spectrum...getting some super powers form Power Broker, Cross, Malus or whoever.
    What left wing scumbags?

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by classicgmer View Post
    I'm not going to buy either book but i think it's kind of a sad state of affairs that the general comicbook buying audience is telling us that the only circumstance by which they'll ever give a crap about Sam is if he's operating under the Captain America mantle and people are just ok with that


    I understand Sam being Cap allows for him the best chance to get significantly showcased but if he were my favorite character i'd feel like it's just a really shallow or hollow victory to know that outside of him being Cap people generally couldn't care less about him.
    Marvels best black characters are the ones that aren't American. Black Panther, Blade and Storm. Now some of you may want to bring up that Storm was born in America. This is true. But her formative years were spent abroad with no parents, so I'm tossing her in. I think the reason why these characters work is that they are characters who happen to be black as opposed to black characters like Falcon and.....sigh....Luke Cage two characters that get stuck with the "Black In America" stuff (Falcon as Captain America is a reflection of it) that is
    written by well meaning people but is still just a hassle to sit through.
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  11. #101
    Astonishing Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tliscord View Post
    Carnero and Silva … excellent art choices.
    That will be gone in three issues, classic Marvel bait and switch.
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    Marvels best black characters are the ones that aren't American. Black Panther, Blade and Storm. Now some of you may want to bring up that Storm was born in America. This is true. But her formative years were spent abroad with no parents, so I'm tossing her in. I think the reason why these characters work is that they are characters who happen to be black as opposed to black characters like Falcon and.....sigh....Luke Cage two characters that get stuck with the "Black In America" stuff (Falcon as Captain America is a reflection of it) that is
    written by well meaning people but is still just a hassle to sit through.
    I don't think 'Black in America' is a problem in of itself. Just that the execution is poor. But it's not like comics are inundated with tales of the Black experience.

  13. #103
    Astonishing Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CosmiComic View Post
    I don't think 'Black in America' is a problem in of itself. Just that the execution is poor. But it's not like comics are inundated with tales of the Black experience.
    I don't think it's a problem either but it's not really a solution. Look at Black Panther. The character is a ruler of a kingdom steeped in advanced technology and magic that dresses like a cat and punches people in the face. It's crazy fun escapism, and that is what the majority of us are here for. Sure BP, Storm and Blade might do "Black in America" stuff from time to time but it's just window dressing. The whole "World Outside Your Window" thing was just window dressing. The problem is that over the years people started to take it really seriously. With Falcon and Luke Cage it feels like it's the point of their whole existence. People are coming to Marvel comics to escape the outside world for a moment.

    Falcon should have gotten some updates a long time ago, like real wings and talons and maybe expand on his telepathy. But that would be too escapist and fun. I think that's why Joaquin Torres annoys me so much. Everything I have always wanted to see Falcon get....he ended up with LOL.
    Last edited by Anthony W; 01-20-2022 at 10:55 PM. Reason: Forgot to mention Joaquin Torres
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    That will be gone in three issues, classic Marvel bait and switch.
    Let me amend that, Silva and Carnero …. Excellent art choices for the first three issues. Better? Good god.

  15. #105
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    I'm planning on buying them because I like both characters. I bought Falcon's last couple of series. Hopefully this new one isn't awful like the last. Hopefully this new Captain America series isn't boring like Coates's run did in the end.

    I like most people don't like Falcon being renamed to Captain America or anything else. I don't like it that Marvel and DC name a bunch of characters after the popular characters. It's extremely lazy unless the characters are in a alternate reality. They don't have any confidence in the characters, story or creative team to sell. If they did then they wouldn't be trying this two of every character nonsense. That said I am looking forward to both of these books. That is Falcon's best suit. His new shield looks good as well.

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