DC Announces Death of the Justice League

[Stanlos]

Regarding the public domain....I've talked about it a bit lately too, but we are really ahead of the curve here; Action #1 doesn't hit the domain for another....eleven?....years, and that's assuming Disney and WB don't successfully lobby for another extension.

Steamboat Willie will enter public domain in 2024 under current law, so any action corporations take to protect their copyright will happen before that.

Whether the attempt will be successful is another matter. The safe bet, of course, is that politicians line their pockets with Mouse money and extend the law. But there's a few points that make this *slightly* less of a foregone conclusion; public opinion, greater awareness of how copyright law has been changed to benefit the rich elite, and there's never actually been a good legal argument for extending the law anyway. It's possible that this is a fight politicians don't want to get into and they'll let the law stand rather than risk pissing off voters and losing their next election. I wouldn't bet on that, but we'll see what the socio-political climate is like after midterms.

If the law does stand (unlikely as that seems), when Clark enters the domain it'll just be the version from 1938. And that guy bears little resemblance to the Superman most people are familiar with. And DC/WB will still have the active trademark (which can be maintained in perpetuity) so this isn't the solution to DC's mismanagement that some of y'all might be thinking it is. It could still be good for the character, I believe that it likely would be, but time will tell.

Anyway, as for this death of the League thing....I'm confused. I hear that the JL book will be off the shelves for a while, which is fine, but it seems like the rest of the publishing line isn't acknowledging this? Seems like Bruce and Clark and Diana and the rest are still active in their own titles so what exactly is this going to achieve beyond giving the JL book a break?

It seems like such a cheap gimmick. I'd be pretty happy about an opportunity for other heroes and teams to get the spotlight; the League and its Big 7 roster have become a glass ceiling holding everyone else back. But if the League heroes are still alive and kicking in their own books there's damn little room for such development. The fact that they're all dying first just makes any of this even less likely to matter six months later, because you know DC isn't going to keep any of the Big Names dead for very long. And I think DC would just use this as an opportunity to push their current pet characters and the Future State roster, rather than making any kind of genuine effort to elevate longstanding, "deserving" characters and teams.

This could be the chance for characters like Nightwing, Cyborg, Power Girl, Firestorm, Blue Beetle, etc., to step up and take the reins as earth's greatest heroes. But instead I think we'll just get a Junior Justice League team, with a roster of Big 7 legacies made up mostly of rookies who haven't earned the right to call themselves the "greatest" anything, much less the greatest heroes on earth.

Hmmmmm. Surely Donna, Dick, and a number of Lanterns have, right?

[Superboy-Prime]

Bruce will never get replaced any more than Peter will. The comics lines at DC and Marvel rely too much on them to ever seriously consider replacing those two. Other characters however might get replaced no matter how iconic they are.

Clark got Superman taken from him and no one batted an eye. Warworld's been kicking his butt!

[Ascended]

Hmmmmm. Surely Donna, Dick, and a number of Lanterns have, right?

Dick yes, he's long since proven that he's worthy of being counted among the best of the best. He's arguably already counted as such, depending on who you ask.

Same goes for many of the Lanterns, most are equally capable and deserving of such lofty titles. But unless the Lantern in question is Kyle Rayner returning to earth to pick up his old Marz era Everyman archetype, I'm perfectly fine with the Lanterns largely staying off world, they're more fun as space cops than jewelry-based superheroes.

Donna.....not so much, I don't think. She's powerful, experienced, and capable yes. She'd certainly be able to keep up in a team of next-generation GOATS, but I don't think she'd be much of a stand out member and would largely end up in the background, and she comes with a whole lot of baggage and broken history. I imagine that Yara would find her way onto a hypothetical post-League roster instead; Donna seems to be a character few writers want to deal with while Yara was an instant hit (even if her sales didn't hold very long).

I'm hoping that if we do end up with a League replacement team, that it's not just the Future State roster or even a Big 7 legacy group, but brings in the characters who feel like they could realistically step into the League's boots, and not feel like a gimmick group. We'd obviously get a good amount of legacies, since many of DC's best and brightest are legacies (Dick, Kara, Wally, etc) but I don't want or need a complete Big 7 copy. Get Mr. Terrific, Blue Beetle, Cyborg, heroes like that into the mix, and not just Superman Jr., Batman Jr., Wonder Woman Jr., etc.

[Ready Eddie]

At least they are not black lanterns. That would be even worse!

[skyvolt2000]

Let me put it this way. DC put Scott Lobdell on Superman. You really trust them and companies like them to always provide the best talent possible?

For all the grips folks have with guys like Scott Lobdell-he is not going to kill sales. Either they stay the same or drop slightly. The same folks who bemoan him will still show up every Wednesday to buy that book and come here to CRY about how bad it was.

Meanwhile Dc has tried to get new blood and MOST have seen their books boycotted before the first issue or folks LOOK for reasons to be TOXIC.

So can Dc find better writers than Lobdell?? YES.

Will DC fans and store owners give that writer a fair shot??? Million Dollar question.

So if Lobdell keeps the Titanic floating and the other guy is up in the air-DC is going with the first guy.




And one thing we forget-EDITORS.....

How much freedom does one get here versus other places?

Priest is enjoying his freedom at Dynamite.

We saw the damage one did to Cyborg and Static's New 52 & Rebirth books.

I mean lets take Cyborg to Image. Where David Walker is writing Bitter Root. Think he won't do justice to Cyborg that he was NOT allowed to do at DC under those editors?

[superduperman]

Whose actions are we talking about?

DC's with having a bunch of legacies take over. If they at no real risk of losing the characters, then why have legacies take over their titles?

[The Darknight Detective]

DC's with having a bunch of legacies take over. If they at no real risk of losing the characters, then why have legacies take over their titles?

I think it's more about a sales boost for DC than anything else, IMO.

[Menacer]

For all the grips folks have with guys like Scott Lobdell-he is not going to kill sales. Either they stay the same or drop slightly. The same folks who bemoan him will still show up every Wednesday to buy that book and come here to CRY about how bad it was.

Meanwhile Dc has tried to get new blood and MOST have seen their books boycotted before the first issue or folks LOOK for reasons to be TOXIC.

So can Dc find better writers than Lobdell?? YES.

Will DC fans and store owners give that writer a fair shot??? Million Dollar question.

So if Lobdell keeps the Titanic floating and the other guy is up in the air-DC is going with the first guy.




And one thing we forget-EDITORS.....

How much freedom does one get here versus other places?

Priest is enjoying his freedom at Dynamite.

We saw the damage one did to Cyborg and Static's New 52 & Rebirth books.

I mean lets take Cyborg to Image. Where David Walker is writing Bitter Root. Think he won't do justice to Cyborg that he was NOT allowed to do at DC under those editors?

Where does everyone get all their behind the scenes info?

I often here people discussing inner workings of DC staff as if they are present in the office...

How is it that so much is known? Or are people really comfy speculating? Or is there loads of info on Twitter or something?

[Ascended]

At least they are not black lanterns. That would be even worse!

Well, let's not get ahead of ourselves, we don't know what Act 2 is yet.

DC's with having a bunch of legacies take over. If they at no real risk of losing the characters, then why have legacies take over their titles?

If DC's roster begin to shift into the public domain, and that is a massive *IF,* then DC isn't losing their characters, just the exclusive rights to their earliest appearances.

DC does the legacy thing every few years; how many times has Bruce been replaced as Batman? I agree that DC does seem to be trying to build their franchises in directions that'll set them apart from any other versions that might arise thanks to public domain, and protect their assets from any potential legal challenge from creators, but let's not get ahead of ourselves or put more weight behind public domain than is deserved, this "rise of the legacies" thing is part of their normal cycle....they're just maybe putting in a bit more effort than usual now. These characters have all grown and evolved so much from their original stories that there's little resemblance now, and plenty of room for both to coexist. The only real threat to DC is that they might have to hire better creators to match the new competition.

And that's all assuming nothing changes over the next ten years and this becomes a thing that actually happens at all.

Will DC fans and store owners give that writer a fair shot??? Million Dollar question.

Indeed. My guess? DC's fandom is very specific in what they want and what they'll support, but that doesn't extend to other publishers.

I think, to put it in terms everyone here will understand, that people will generally look at public domain work like we look at Elseworlds. We don't expect an Elseworld to follow the same patterns we're familiar with, we expect it to go in surprising directions and do different things. I think audiences would look at non-DC stuff the same way. Public domain Batman is probably going to use guns and shoot people, because that was the Golden Age Batman. I wouldn't accept that from DC's Batman but I'll accept it from a different publisher using the public domain.

And one thing we forget-EDITORS.....

How much freedom does one get here versus other places?

An excellent argument in favor of public domain. Any of the indie publishers must offer far more freedom that DC or Marvel, who have to answer to corporate overlords.

[TheKryptonMan]

Well, let's not get ahead of ourselves, we don't know what Act 2 is yet.



If DC's roster begin to shift into the public domain, and that is a massive *IF,* then DC isn't losing their characters, just the exclusive rights to their earliest appearances.

DC does the legacy thing every few years; how many times has Bruce been replaced as Batman? I agree that DC does seem to be trying to build their franchises in directions that'll set them apart from any other versions that might arise thanks to public domain, and protect their assets from any potential legal challenge from creators, but let's not get ahead of ourselves or put more weight behind public domain than is deserved, this "rise of the legacies" thing is part of their normal cycle....they're just maybe putting in a bit more effort than usual now. These characters have all grown and evolved so much from their original stories that there's little resemblance now, and plenty of room for both to coexist. The only real threat to DC is that they might have to hire better creators to match the new competition.

And that's all assuming nothing changes over the next ten years and this becomes a thing that actually happens at all.



Indeed. My guess? DC's fandom is very specific in what they want and what they'll support, but that doesn't extend to other publishers.

I think, to put it in terms everyone here will understand, that people will generally look at public domain work like we look at Elseworlds. We don't expect an Elseworld to follow the same patterns we're familiar with, we expect it to go in surprising directions and do different things. I think audiences would look at non-DC stuff the same way. Public domain Batman is probably going to use guns and shoot people, because that was the Golden Age Batman. I wouldn't accept that from DC's Batman but I'll accept it from a different publisher using the public domain.



An excellent argument in favor of public domain. Any of the indie publishers must offer far more freedom that DC or Marvel, who have to answer to corporate overlords.

All this talk about DC killing off the JL in April is doing exactly what they want.
It's getting all of us talking about the upcoming book which is only coming out in April . Can you guys imagine how much more talk there will be by then ? And also when we know about May's solicitations ?
I think that at this point JL#75 will be the # 1 seller for 2022 for sure..
I haven't bought JL since Snyder left , but now I'll surely pick it up , just to see what really happens.


Also one question for " Ascended " , Why wouldn't you accept DC's Batman/Bruce using guns , like he did in the Golden Age ?
If DC is really killing off all but one JL member , I think that everything is on the table now.
What if Bruce decided to actually kill off the Joker ? Would that turn you off on Batman/Bruce ?
I would actually be ok with it, as long as the story was well written.
We know that eventually the Joker would come back to life at some point.
I think that DC needs publicity and they're getting it right now.

[Ready Eddie]

Meanwhile Dc has tried to get new blood and MOST have seen their books boycotted before the first issue or folks LOOK for reasons to be TOXIC.

I think they should listen to "toxic fans" and try to appease them because the people they try to get to replace them as new blood do not care about comics after years of appeasing.

A great writer to have back would be Chuck Dixon. The first DC stories I read were his. It's to bad he is Mr. Controversial and one of my other favorite writes Denny O' Neil is dead.

[Menacer]

I think they should listen to "toxic fans" and try to appease them because the people they try to get to replace them as new blood do not care about comics after years of appeasing.

A great writer to have back would be Chuck Dixon. The first DC stories I read were his. It's to bad he is Mr. Controversial and one of my other favorite writes Denny O' Neil is dead.

What would be examples of boycotted books and what do "toxic" fans want?

[The Kid]

Regarding the public domain....I've talked about it a bit lately too, but we are really ahead of the curve here; Action #1 doesn't hit the domain for another....eleven?....years, and that's assuming Disney and WB don't successfully lobby for another extension.

Steamboat Willie will enter public domain in 2024 under current law, so any action corporations take to protect their copyright will happen before that.

Whether the attempt will be successful is another matter. The safe bet, of course, is that politicians line their pockets with Mouse money and extend the law. But there's a few points that make this *slightly* less of a foregone conclusion; public opinion, greater awareness of how copyright law has been changed to benefit the rich elite, and there's never actually been a good legal argument for extending the law anyway. It's possible that this is a fight politicians don't want to get into and they'll let the law stand rather than risk pissing off voters and losing their next election. I wouldn't bet on that, but we'll see what the socio-political climate is like after midterms.

If the law does stand (unlikely as that seems), when Clark enters the domain it'll just be the version from 1938. And that guy bears little resemblance to the Superman most people are familiar with. And DC/WB will still have the active trademark (which can be maintained in perpetuity) so this isn't the solution to DC's mismanagement that some of y'all might be thinking it is. It could still be good for the character, I believe that it likely would be, but time will tell.

Anyway, as for this death of the League thing....I'm confused. I hear that the JL book will be off the shelves for a while, which is fine, but it seems like the rest of the publishing line isn't acknowledging this? Seems like Bruce and Clark and Diana and the rest are still active in their own titles so what exactly is this going to achieve beyond giving the JL book a break?

It seems like such a cheap gimmick. I'd be pretty happy about an opportunity for other heroes and teams to get the spotlight; the League and its Big 7 roster have become a glass ceiling holding everyone else back. But if the League heroes are still alive and kicking in their own books there's damn little room for such development. The fact that they're all dying first just makes any of this even less likely to matter six months later, because you know DC isn't going to keep any of the Big Names dead for very long. And I think DC would just use this as an opportunity to push their current pet characters and the Future State roster, rather than making any kind of genuine effort to elevate longstanding, "deserving" characters and teams.

This could be the chance for characters like Nightwing, Cyborg, Power Girl, Firestorm, Blue Beetle, etc., to step up and take the reins as earth's greatest heroes. But instead I think we'll just get a Junior Justice League team, with a roster of Big 7 legacies made up mostly of rookies who haven't earned the right to call themselves the "greatest" anything, much less the greatest heroes on earth.

People have said that Disney is not fighting the public domain stuff this time around and have accepted it is finally over. It's actually happening. Mickey Mouse will be in the public domain in a few years and a decade from now Superman and Batman will join him

I'm actually really excited to see non DC creators make their own takes on Golden Age Superman. And as the years go by, more and more of Superman's world hits the public domain for creators to play with

[Dax]

Possible spoilers




I think Dc may be wrapping up a story line that goes back to the convergence series when Hal Jordan Parallax crossed over to the main DC universe and clashed with our Hal. After that things got weird with Hal, The comic was relaunched as Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps, the New gods declared war on the Green Lanterns, Hal was able to mach lighrays speed which he said was impossible, Hal defeated General Zod under a double yellow star, John Stewart went up against the entire Amazon army solo and yet Dianna said he would die, and a Blackstar Vampire (forget her name) said Hal was the most dangerous devious man in any Universe. Strangely Hal is the only original JLA member still around in that comic cover (is Flash wally?). In Current Green Lantern Hal is also absent but still has power.
The only thing that stumps me is Keli and her power gauntlet as Hal was using it up until she got it but (apparently there are 2 gauntlets now) I will also take a shot that Our Hal Jordan is being hidden on Themyscira and the Hal thats Green Lantern is actually Parallax and thats who will kill the JLA

[Ascended]

Also one question for " Ascended " , Why wouldn't you accept DC's Batman/Bruce using guns , like he did in the Golden Age ?

Because for eighty years DC's ongoing monthlies have been the central, core version of the DCU and except for the first year or two Bruce has spent all that time being staunchly against lethal force. It's a big part of who he is, it's behind many of his biggest stories. And despite the endless stream of retcons, reboots, and Crisis events that clutter DC's history, this has remained remarkably consistent. It's simply not who Bruce is.

Quality is king, of course, and a good story about Bruce killing is something I could enjoy if it were done right. But it's something that goes against the grain of the character, and not in a compelling "what a fun new twist!" kind of way.

I'll accept a Batman who kills when it's an adaptation or Elseworld, because those are meant to be a little different. If someone publishes a story inspired the Golden Age Batman, then I expect guns and killing because that's what the source material offers. So it'd be fine for the public domain version, but not the "prime" version that has seen print continuously for generations.

Am I making any sense?

People have said that Disney is not fighting the public domain stuff this time around and have accepted it is finally over. It's actually happening. Mickey Mouse will be in the public domain in a few years and a decade from now Superman and Batman will join him

Where'd you hear this?

I suppose it could be possible; Winnie the Poo (in the iconic red shirt) just went public domain and while I'm not sure who actually owned that, I never heard anything about Disney or anybody else trying to stop it. And I haven't heard anything about lobbying for an extension of the law yet either. I figured it was just being kept as quiet as possible because the public won't support it (or they'd wait until the last minute so people couldn't complain before the votes were cast) but maybe you're right and they're just not fighting it at all. But I'll believe it when I see Steamboat Willie in the public domain....and then wonder how these companies plan on keeping everyone else from using their toys.