DC Announces Death of the Justice League

[MajorHoy]

https://twitter.com/Williamson_Josh/...sn3AmuF-Q&s=19
JLI 5 tie directly JLA 75

How many people first thought "Justice League International" when they saw that "JLI"?

And isn't the current Bendis book just "JL"?

[Somecrazyaussie]

That is fine but that does not excuse the toxic behavior towards POC and their fans. You might not see but a LOT of us do. I bet that rowdy customer has too.

It's one thing to not be interested in reading New Superman of China and ignoring the book.

It's another to attack the creators, harass the fans or try to form groups that attack only POC lead books. Who tend to LOOK a certain way.

While they don't attack all POC lead books (Milestone, The Terrifics, New Superman, Cyborg) -they target certain ones. The ones that can get YT hits.

I did read New Superman. Wasn't my cup of tea, but I didn't see anything wrong with the character. I do remember there being some debate that his book wasn't being sold where it should have been and that was given as one of the reasons for its lukewarm reception.

As for people's intolerance to POC? Sure they exist. But you can't just say that is the main reason they fail is all. Most readers are creatures of habit. They tend to buy the main stuff because they know it won't get suddenly canned on them. I know that's certain true for me. I stick with the more mainstream heroes at the big two for that reason. It has nothing to do with POC for me. Forge and Bishop are my favourite X-men. I like Blade. I even like the new Darkhawk they introduced. I own a complete run of Black Lightning. If I like the characters I don't care what their ethnic background is or sexual orientation.

So what was the excuse in 1987? It was just Batman and others.
We saw folks throw FITS about McDuffie's JLA-that had the big guns yet 4 black folks offended too many. Yet that book SOLD.

Yes, when the market COULD get away with doing that. Now it's ingrained in the public conscience that the Justice League is the big guns. Same as the Avengers is the main heroes. I remember when I grew up and Black Knight was running the Avengers and you didn't have Tony, Steve, Thor, Hawkeye, Hulk or Black Widow in sight for months at a time. You'll never get a run like that now because the MCU has made it impossible.

[Somecrazyaussie]

I hear this sentiment a lot...

Dc is in a mess...

Is this accurate? Is this projections of ones own state?

Dc holds less market share then marvel true, but that is at least partly cause marvels films are doing better and the trickle down gives the comics more business....

Not a direct reflections that marvels comics are objectively or even subjectively better. I collect mostly dc but I do read marvel lots too. Dc tends to have better artists and more interesting stories imo... my subjective opinion.

Even films... out of 34 films ... 7 are exceptional... the rest are successful but average quality... subjective opinion...

Anyway my comparison to "dc is a mess" would be my own experience.

I work for a massive dockyard. A corporation with several dry docks with well over 1000s of employees.... in canada.

Just so you have any idea im certificated and make just short of $100 an hour on any overtime work. People make big money at this company.

I speak to many staff members. If I asked what they thought of the company or there experience there or there personal life many have pessimistic outlooks on life and work life... we got people pulling 6 figures regularly on these industrial contracts.

But people are pessimistic? I came from a comparable industry but commercial side and I made 27$ an hour and generally no OT.

So whats my point?

My general read of people both in the commerical and industrial sides regardless of pay was that most people seems to be pessimistic...

So I generally take anyones read on any situation with a huge grain of salt cause people dont know how to be postive or make there work or personal life a positive experience....

And as far as peoples read on dc. Its a mess??

I dont buy that.

Dc holds 25% market share thats 300 million.

Yah marvel is doing better but those numbers shouldnt be mocked...

A few great movies and tv series could elevate smaller properties to Batman status and dc could be smashing it.

Any case if DCs fan base was as postive as marvels..


It would translate to more fans and more sales...

Seriously what new fan wants to join dc with such a toxic fanbase?

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Marvel fans are just as toxic sometimes. So it isn't exclusive to DC.

However, I feel some DC fans (And this is only my read on it) are more vocal at the moment because they are frustrated with the direction the company is going in. DC's properties are just as good as Marvel's. There is no reason why the books shouldn't be selling more nor the films pulling in large audiences.

The potential is there. But for some reason something isn't working. What that is I have no idea. I can toss out a few ideas, but they would just be opinions.

[Somecrazyaussie]

I hope Williamson keeps leading DC forward even after his crisis event, i've personally really enjoyed the connectivity he's been bringing to DC and all the book he's writing. He genuinely has a passionf for the DCU that I don't think we've seen since geoff johns.

He is just one man though. They need a few more like him.

[dietrich]

That is fine but that does not excuse the toxic behavior towards POC and their fans. You might not see but a LOT of us do. I bet that rowdy customer has too.

Is another to attack the creators, harass the fans or try to form groups that attack only POC lead books. Who tend to LOOK a certain way.

Hard to claim ignorance when We did see and recall that the first Duke Thomas Appreciation Thread on this site was set up by an over zealous [now banned] Tim Drake fan as a mock-ppreciation thread that encouraged members to insult and make fun of Duke's character.

Why? Most likely because they viewed him as a threat, competition, another obstacle blocking Tim's return to the Robin mantle.
Dumb since Duke wasn't even Robin. He wasn't even the one who usurped Tim's position as Robin.

While I believe that favouritism is the key reason why POC and new character struggle to breakthrough we can't discount that there's an element of racism also at play.

Nobody started a mock-ppreciatiom thread for Damian also a POC just like Duke but with a much lighter skin-tone.

[dietrich]

Why are we zeroing in on POC when my comment was about the response to new characters and minorities? You know response to 'change or something different' like say a different JL line up.

[HsssH]

Hard to claim ignorance when We did see and recall that the first Duke Thomas Appreciation Thread on this site was set up by an over zealous [now banned] Tim Drake fan as a mock-ppreciation thread that encouraged members to insult and make fun of Duke's character.

Why? Most likely because they viewed him as a threat, competition, another obstacle blocking Tim's return to the Robin mantle.
Dumb since Duke wasn't even Robin. He wasn't even the one who usurped Tim's position as Robin.

Maybe that happened at the time when Damian was dead and there were rumours about Duke being next Robin? Not that it makes it any better.

[dietrich]

Maybe that happened at the time when Damian was dead and there were rumours about Duke being next Robin? Not that it makes it any better.

No it happened during Rebirth when Tim was starring in Tynion's tec Damian was Robin in Percy's TT and Duke was on All Star Batman and guesting in King's Batman.

[Robotman]

So if they do a Reign of the Super Teams in the wake of the League's death, who should be the groups fighting for the top spot?

Obviously it would be a great time to relaunch the JSA. Black Adam would be a fine choice to bring them back what with the team playing a big role in his upcoming movie.

The WildCATs just appeared in Batman: Urban Legends and I'm sure Jim Lee would want his team in the mix.

Which team could be the Cyborg-Superman of this event? Lex's Infinity Inc. maybe?

[Ascended]

Well if you want direct analogues, you could use Young Justice, the Teen Titans, or the Future State League roster as the Superboy stand-in.

For Steel, the JSA seem a viable fit; quality, stand up men and women doing the job because someone needs to do it. I suppose the FS roster could work here as well if you're looking at the legacy angle and Steel trying to live up to the ideals of Superman.

Authority, WildCATS, virtually any WildStorm team could fit for the Eradicator, and the Outsiders or Suicide Squad might as well.

Cyborg Superman? Um....the Injustice League or Legion of Doom or whoever pretending to be heroes, Thunderbolts style?

I'm hoping they're not that on the nose about it though. If we do get a "Reign of the Leagues" I hope it's just the various heroes and hero groups of the DCU all deciding to step up, with the bad guys trying to capitalize on the moment. I don't need team-sized proxies for Conner, Steel, Henshaw, or the Eradicator, I just need DC's other teams treated with some respect and given the chance to shine.

[Lal]

Why are we zeroing in on POC when my comment was about the response to new characters and minorities? You know response to 'change or something different' like say a different JL line up.

While it's unacceptable that people express racism towards POC characters, I believe that most readers don't reject new POC characters because they are POC, but because they are taking the spotlight from the characters they care about.
DC's problem is that they believe that all their fans care about is the mantles, while in fact a lot of fans care more about the characters themselves.
So even if DC believes that if they just give new characters well-established mantles their readers would just embrace those new characters once they prove worthy, that's really not the case.

DC actually just tried to do that in the Nightwing book. He became amnesic and a bunch of new characters picked up his mantle. Dick was really okay with them and even helped them, but readers didn't want to read these stories or embrace the new Nightwings (who were a very diverse bunch) - not because they were POC, but because they wanted to read Dick Grayson as Nightwing.
Most Nightwing readers would probably read Dick whatever his codename would be. So if he pick up a new mantle as the Flying Eagle or whatever, they'd still read his book, but it would still probably lead to resentment towards the new character who would use the mantle that their favorite spent years establishing (whether this new character is a cis white male or a diversity character).

So giving a bunch of new heroes the costumes and the mantles (and even the okay from the originals) isn't enough to make fans embrace them. It would have been much more effective, for example, to create a POC as a supporting cast, establish that character for a while and then give them their own mini and see how they are doing. Or even just give a strong push to one of the established POC that DC have - Cyborg, Blach lightning, Vixen.

[Rac7d*]

Fair enough. I can see why some might struggle with Dick Grayson or someone like Selina but what about Damian Wayne?
Him being an AL Ghul is a big part of the character and has been from the start.

As present day Damian family continues to be explored and expanded it becoming an easier transition. Dick is still Richard John Grayson, with the exception of a fellow Romani commenting on his eyes or smile is physically appearing as white passing man. Dick lost his parents when he was eight and we have never seen any semblance of culture from those roots. I won’t deny him his ancestry but I cannot call him a POC if continues to be white passing, nor can I fault DC since that how he originated. Unlike the Al ghouls who clearly always should have POCs.

I don’t think DC as whole sees him that way. Devin Grayson who was the first to add this to his character has spoken up on how to interpret what is and is not cannon in media own by conglomerates. https://twitter.com/gothamette/statu...852945923?s=21

[dietrich]

While it's unacceptable that people express racism towards POC characters, I believe that most readers don't reject new POC characters because they are POC, but because they are taking the spotlight from the characters they care about.
DC's problem is that they believe that all their fans care about is the mantles, while in fact a lot of fans care more about the characters themselves.
So even if DC believes that if they just give new characters well-established mantles their readers would just embrace those new characters once they prove worthy, that's really not the case.

DC actually just tried to do that in the Nightwing book. He became amnesic and a bunch of new characters picked up his mantle. Dick was really okay with them and even helped them, but readers didn't want to read these stories or embrace the new Nightwings (who were a very diverse bunch) - not because they were POC, but because they wanted to read Dick Grayson as Nightwing.
Most Nightwing readers would probably read Dick whatever his codename would be. So if he pick up a new mantle as the Flying Eagle or whatever, they'd still read his book, but it would still probably lead to resentment towards the new character who would use the mantle that their favorite spent years establishing (whether this new character is a cis white male or a diversity character).

So giving a bunch of new heroes the costumes and the mantles (and even the okay from the originals) isn't enough to make fans embrace them. It would have been much more effective, for example, to create a POC as a supporting cast, establish that character for a while and then give them their own mini and see how they are doing. Or even just give a strong push to one of the established POC that DC have - Cyborg, Blach lightning, Vixen.

Exactly. fan favouritism is the main problem. The complaints started as soon as the Death of JL was announced. Posters didn't know a thing about the new line up [Do we even know the new line up yet?]

They just heard the current JL was going to stop showing up in ONE title and the kicked off with knee jerk negativity because their favourites were being threatened.

I understand wanting the characters you like to stay spotlighted

[Lal]

As present day Damian family continues to be explored and expanded it becoming an easier transition. Dick is still Richard John Grayson, with the exception of a fellow Romani commenting on his eyes or smile is physically appearing as white passing man. Dick lost his parents when he was eight and we have never seen any semblance of culture from those roots. I won’t deny him his ancestry but I cannot call him a POC if continues to be white passing, nor can I fault DC since that how he originated. Unlike the Al ghouls who clearly always should have POCs.

I don’t think DC as whole sees him that way. Devin Grayson who was the first to add this to his character has spoken up on how to interpret what is and is not cannon in media own by conglomerates. https://twitter.com/gothamette/statu...852945923?s=21

Well, Raptor, Dick's main antagonist in Seeley's Rebirth run was all about the fact that Bruce took Dick away from his people and his culture and raised him as another privileged white man. I kind of hope he'll be back because he really raised a great question here.
Dc could have easily buried Dick's Romani heritage a long time ago and just never mention it again, but they keep reminding the readers every once in a while it's still a part of his ancestry. I guess we'll get a story about it one day.

[HsssH]

Dick being romani is kinda same as Kyle being latino. Added later in their careers when people had already formed their ideas on who these characters are. And as Rac7d said they are white passing. If you are not familiar with their stories you wouldn't think that they have mixed ethnicity. And well, due to all that they feel fake.

Damian was designed to look like mini-Bruce and DC has never been consistent on Al Ghul ethnicity. For around 10 years he was drawn as a white kid and only in last few years DC started to draw him with darker skin. So there is that resistance from people as well. But unlike with Dick or Kyle, it does feel like Damian should have at least a bit darker skin than Bruce due to Talia, despite that she was often drawn white herself. So in a way it doesn't feel like something added later in the game, but like a correction that should have been there since day 1.`