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  1. #1
    Y'know. Pav's Avatar
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    Default we've BEN given a gift! ASM 86 and BR:SM 1 Review/Spoilers

    Can you believe, Ben fans, that we get TWO issues starring our beloved spider-clone?! I thought both issues were sensational, and there are some interesting parallels to consider! Let's get to it!

    ASM 86

    1) We start off with Ben meeting with Kafka. He's SURLY.

    2) Flashback to Ben taking on Hellbomb, who has a decent name but the worst costume ever. He looks like he's covered in those spheres from The Rock.

    3) Ben takes down Hellbomb, easy peezy. But Beyond isn't happy that he disobeyed orders. Kafka wants to know why he's changed his mind about Beyond.

    4) Two floors up, Janine is staring at the dresser drawer, in which she's hidden the data drive she got from Ben last issue. In the flashback to that scene, we also see that Ben straight-up tells Janine that Beyond is lying to them.

    5) Kafka gains Ben's trust by explaining that she, too, doesn't trust Beyond.

    6) Kafka's naive, though, in her belief that they can speak freely. Maxine Danger is spying on them. I like how she's portrayed here -- a little humorous, which is better than two-dimensional mean girl.

    7) Janine isn't allowed to walk around freely, apparently, due to her status as an ex?-con.

    8) Beyond knows best.

    9) OKAY. SO: Beyond HAS messed with Ben's memories!!! It appears that Ben doesn't remember anything post PP:SM 75 and pre- the Beyond arc, and according to Kafka, it was AT BEN'S REQUEST. (Meta analysis: Marvel removed Ben's more complicated adventures for fans of his original demeanor...?)

    10) According to Dr. Kafka, a clone can lose its personality if the wrong memories get deleted -- likely the ones that sort of serve as the foundation for the rest of the (implanted) memories. Luckily, she's trying to repair Ben's mind with some technology thingie.

    11) Ben tells Kafka that the data disc held all kinds of info about Beyond and that everyone is in danger. Unfortunately, that's when Maxine Danger shows up and puts a stop to Ben's therapy appointment. Kafka begs Maxine not to erase Ben's mind again.

    12) Meanwhile, Janine takes Marcus hostage so she can escape! Go, Janine!

    13) Beyond begins removing Ben's memories, starting with the recent dust-up with Otto, who gets no-faced in Ben's mind. But UH-OH -- all of a sudden, Ben's oldest memories are getting wiped away!!!!!

    My major concern is that Ben's "Peter Parkeriness" is going to get removed via the removal of his memories, and that he'll be an identity-less person, having to start over as Ben Reilly from scratch. My hope is that, even if Ben DOES become a mindless automaton for Beyond, that Dr. Kafka and/or Janine are able to help rescue him -- perhaps with Peter's help...?

    ON TO BEN REILLY: SPIDER-MAN 1

    1) I like Ben's commentary about feeling at home in NYC -- and I LOVED JMD squeezing in a little JJJ here! He and Ben barely interacted back in the day. Good way to provide exposition, as well.

    2) Ben telling JJJ he isn't Parker almost feels more like a modern Kaine moment.

    3) I like that JMD quickly brings up the idea that Ben doesn't know who he's supposed to be as Ben Reilly. It's something I always wanted to see more explicitly explored -- what can Ben do to grow into a more complete version of himself? Who does he want to become?

    4) The recap of Ben's time on the road was nice -- especially the emphasis on Janine and Kaine as the only parts that felt real to him.

    5) LOVE THE HAMLET REFERENCE!!!

    6) I'm so glad that JMD has carried on with the notion that Ben finds joy in being Spidey in a way that Peter doesn't/can't. It's something that makes total sense to me and it's why, in the early Beyond issues, I understood Ben telling Peter how badly he needs to be Spidey too. As far as I know, Tom Defalco is the originator of the "Ben takes more joy in being Spidey" thing in the page of Spider-Girl, and I thank him for that addition.

    7) Seeing Malcom McBride as Carrion is cool for many reasons. For one, the Carrion Virus originates with the Jackal, so it's nice to have that in the background for a Ben-focused story. Two, Ben and Carrion didn't fight in the 90s, to the best of my recollection. And three, I never felt like McBride got a proper conclusion to his character's storyline; this issue serves well as one.

    8) I'm glad that Ben showed compassion towards McBride by allowing him to share in his sorrow (in a literal sense).

    9) RETCON: Peter shared his secret ID and clone-related stuff with Dr. Kafka? Don't think it ever happened, but it's a retcon that makes sense -- and after the Clone Saga, she never really showed up much, so I can't imagine it influences any past stories negatively.

    10) Even Kafka remarks that Ben is acting on edge -- although there IS the Carrion explanation for anyone who needs one. It IS a little odd how gruff he is if you consider continuity: he was pretty settled into his life as Ben at this point, more or less, and quite happy-go-lucky. That being said, we also know Ben had plenty of dark days -- so maybe this is just a dark patch.

    11) Vermin appearance!

    12) Quick beat on the subplot of first date murders. I guess that'll become more important in consequent issues.

    13) I'M NOT PETER PARKER.

    14) "I don't do friendship." Okay, but I remember the Daily Grind cast throwing you a party and buying you a tv. It's kind of a bummer that we didn't see a mention of even Jessica, but I understand trying to keep it accessible and not bogged down by details irrelevant to the story.

    15) New Daily Grind "regular" seems like a total red herring for the murder thing. But maybe he's the way for Ben to get into that storyline?

    16) OH HECK: Ben's home has been invaded by the SCORPION!!! Another potential fun match-up between Ben and a villain with whom he didn't much tangle back in the 90s! And how does he know Ben is Spidey?!

    Excellent cliffhanger. Excellent issue! I've enjoyed Beyond, but this issue felt jam-packed, comparatively!

    Fellow fans of Ben: how did you like today's issues?

    -Pav, who wrote a letter to Marvel expressing his delight...
    You were Spider-Man then. You and Peter had agreed on it. But he came back right when you started feeling comfortable.
    You know what it means when he comes back
    .

    "You're not the better one, Peter. You're just older."
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    Closet full of comics? Consider donating to my school! DM for details

  2. #2
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Generally cosigned. A double dose of Ben Reilly? Sign me up . . . even if both of those endings look very ominous for Ben.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  3. #3
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    In another thread I brought up the minor problem of Ben mentioning Janine and Kaine being in jail because it doesn't line up with the original story at all. You mentioned that Malcolm McBride didn't have a proper ending. Wasn't his last appearance in Amazing Spider-Man 393 when Shriek removed the virus from his body? Did he show up after? If he didn't, wouldn't have that been a decent enough send off?

  4. #4
    Spectacular Member Obsidian Spider's Avatar
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    Thanks, Pav, as always for the nice breakdown and analysis! I appreciate you.

    I'm glad that the Beyond story is finally getting on with things but, man, comparing the pacing of these 2 Reilly stories: it's night and day.

    JMD has more happen with more character development in one issue than the ENTIRE Beyond run so far. No exaggeration. And the art is SENSATIONAL!

    Takes me back to the good ol' days when you'd get bang for your buck. When I was collecting the original clone saga stuff, comics were $2 and you'd get an action-packed book with character development and often complete story in one issue. Now I'm paying $5 to watch Janine sit on a bed and think for a few pages. A one-comic story now takes 5 issues.

    Anyway, rant over. LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the DeMatteis/Baldeon ish and can't wait for more!

  5. #5
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    I highly enjoyed both issues, but see them both as slightly imperfect (but I’m a nerdy nitpicker, so it’s okay). Sorry, but I’m just going to copy/paste what I’ve written in other threads:

    ASM#86

    Good issue. Happy to see Janine didn't betray Ben afterall. Wells again proves he's the best Beyond writer (honestly no comparison). Maxine is quickly becoming someone who needs to die. I don't like Marcus much either while we're at it. Another Seward Trainer esque character who pretends to be Ben's friend just to manipulate him. Good interactions between Kafka and Ben (including Kafka bringing up the fact that yes, she was created by Ben). It was also fun seeing Ben go beast-mode on that super villain in the beginning. Like in all of Beyond, Ben is a bit gullible spilling his guts to Kafka and just taking her word for it that they're not being monitored. I am also weary about what state this mind tinkering will leave Ben in... we know we have to wait a bit as next issue seems to be Peter-centered. But all in all, one of the best issues since the first two of this arc.


    Ben Reilly #1

    I liked it. It has great art, excellent dialogue, an engaging mystery. Best of all, we saw the return of the 'Daily Grind' and Shirley!!! No Buzz, Desiree or Jessica unfortunately. This new character John Diaz seems either an obvious suspect or obvious red herring for the dating murders unfolding. (It’s also a bit weird hearing about online dating in a comic supposed to take place in 1996, but it’s okay) There were some things I wasn't thrilled about. Ben has an edge, yes, but here he seems a bit TOO edgy. I know JM DeMatteis usually portrays Peter and Ben best when they're in psychological torment, but I thought he went a bit overboard with how angry Ben seems in this issue. Could be chalked up to absorbing Carrion's bad energy, I guess. The other minor thing, is it doesn't quite fit well in continuity. Peter and MJ are still in Portland (we even get a baby reference!), but this mini takes place after Kaine and Janine go to jail in 'Spider-Man: Revelations.' That's hard to square as Peter's return to New York coincides with the ending of 'Return of Kaine', which takes place at an earlier point with the character. And 'Redemption' also makes reference to Peter and MJ being back in New York. Not a big deal, just a nerdy nitpick. Also... when did Peter reveal his identity to Kafka in the 90s? I must've forgotten that issue. Anyway, nice write-ups in the letters columns too. Wow, the artist David Baldeon is a total Ben-head. How cool is it that he gets to do the art for one of his favorite characters growing up?? And I bet he was a big JMD fan, just as we all were. Read what he says in the back of the issue. You can't fake that kind of love for a character.


    So anyway... both good (if not perfect) issues. Both recommended.

  6. #6
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    Pav, to your 9) point about ASM#86, I think it’s mostly stories pre-Spidergeddon he doesn’t remember as he does remember being resurrected and going to space with Misty in ‘Iron Man.’ Still… I’d have no problem with CC and PAD’s run staying wiped.

  7. #7
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    Ok, let's take these in order. First up, ASM...

    This was really, really good. Along with last week's Otto issue probably the strongest issues since the first two. There is some genuinely alarming stuff happening here to Ben and I have absolutely no idea where it's going.

    Part of me understands why Ben would want to forget. Why Clone Conspiracy and SS:BR would be better off forgotten. But you can't heal or grow if you ignore the pain and you can't overcome the obstacles if you forgot they were there in the first place. It's the easy, cowardly way out. And it hurts to see Ben walking that path. If he actually did choose to forget and that isn't just Beyond jerking his chain yet again. But watching Beyond try to take his defiance and the ending... man I am legitimately worried for what happens next.

    This issue also raises some interesting questions about our upcoming Goblin Queen story. Kafka sure doesn't SEEM evil in this issue. So, is she actually trying to help Ben in some way? Is Goblin Queen something done TO her by Beyond? And will there be enough of Ben left to care?

    Next up, Spider-Man: Ben Reilly. This was so good. JMD just lives in Ben's head in a way that only a handful of writers ever managed. It felt totally on point, right in there with stuff from the period. But it also felt timely, given the goings on in ASM. An exploration of a time when Ben was finding himself as he loses himself elsewhere. I wonder how closely the two series are going to tie together? Just a good coincidence or part of the plan?

    For the record, if Marvel just wants to give me more of this flashback Ben (FlashBen?) I would be ok with it. I really hope they are going somewhere in the present with Ben that isn't death yet again, and I'm along for the ride. But I will buy up every single issue of stuff like this that gets back to the classic, authentic feel of Ben Reilly.

    I am so happy right now. I haven't been this thrilled with a week of Spider-Man comics in a long time. More. More. MOAAAAR!

  8. #8
    Welcome Back Spidey Kurolegacy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HypnoHustler View Post
    I highly enjoyed both issues, but see them both as slightly imperfect (but I’m a nerdy nitpicker, so it’s okay). Sorry, but I’m just going to copy/paste what I’ve written in other threads:

    ASM#86

    Good issue. Happy to see Janine didn't betray Ben afterall. Wells again proves he's the best Beyond writer (honestly no comparison). Maxine is quickly becoming someone who needs to die. I don't like Marcus much either while we're at it. Another Seward Trainer esque character who pretends to be Ben's friend just to manipulate him. Good interactions between Kafka and Ben (including Kafka bringing up the fact that yes, she was created by Ben). It was also fun seeing Ben go beast-mode on that super villain in the beginning. Like in all of Beyond, Ben is a bit gullible spilling his guts to Kafka and just taking her word for it that they're not being monitored. I am also weary about what state this mind tinkering will leave Ben in... we know we have to wait a bit as next issue seems to be Peter-centered. But all in all, one of the best issues since the first two of this arc.


    Ben Reilly #1

    I liked it. It has great art, excellent dialogue, an engaging mystery. Best of all, we saw the return of the 'Daily Grind' and Shirley!!! No Buzz, Desiree or Jessica unfortunately. This new character John Diaz seems either an obvious suspect or obvious red herring for the dating murders unfolding. (It’s also a bit weird hearing about online dating in a comic supposed to take place in 1996, but it’s okay) There were some things I wasn't thrilled about. Ben has an edge, yes, but here he seems a bit TOO edgy. I know JM DeMatteis usually portrays Peter and Ben best when they're in psychological torment, but I thought he went a bit overboard with how angry Ben seems in this issue. Could be chalked up to absorbing Carrion's bad energy, I guess. The other minor thing, is it doesn't quite fit well in continuity. Peter and MJ are still in Portland (we even get a baby reference!), but this mini takes place after Kaine and Janine go to jail in 'Spider-Man: Revelations.' That's hard to square as Peter's return to New York coincides with the ending of 'Return of Kaine', which takes place at an earlier point with the character. And 'Redemption' also makes reference to Peter and MJ being back in New York. Not a big deal, just a nerdy nitpick. Also... when did Peter reveal his identity to Kafka in the 90s? I must've forgotten that issue. Anyway, nice write-ups in the letters columns too. Wow, the artist David Baldeon is a total Ben-head. How cool is it that he gets to do the art for one of his favorite characters growing up?? And I bet he was a big JMD fan, just as we all were. Read what he says in the back of the issue. You can't fake that kind of love for a character.


    So anyway... both good (if not perfect) issues. Both recommended.
    To be fair, it’s less Ben being gullible as Kafka is. I mean, Beyond is a pretty shady company and she took their word that they wouldn’t bug her sessions and was genuinely shocked when this wasn’t the case. Like, what was she expecting from these people? And it seems that Ben is gonna suffer for her gullibility.

  9. #9
    I'm at least a C-Lister! exile001's Avatar
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    This issue of ASM was solid, it's great that things are finally moving forward and I liked the revelations about playing with Ben's mind (that we all figured out 8+ issues ago).

    BUT Ben Reilly: Spider-man was fantastic. Sure, there were a few continuity issues but I don't care. JMD can still write a compelling, character driven comic with a slew of ancillary characters and a decent bit of action, and it is a breath of fresh air. I cannot wait for the next issue!
    "Has Sariel summoned you here, Azrael? Have you come to witness the miracle of your brethren arriving on Earth?"

    "I WILL MIX THE ASHES OF YOUR BONES WITH SALT AND USE THEM TO ENSURE THE EARTH THE TEMPLARS TILLED NEVER BEARS FRUIT AGAIN!"

    "*sigh* I hoped it was for the miracle."

    Dan Watters' Azrael was incredible, a constant delight and perhaps too good for this world (but not the Forth). For the love of St. Dumas, DC, give us more!!!

  10. #10
    I'm at least a C-Lister! exile001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    RETCON: Peter shared his secret ID and clone-related stuff with Dr. Kafka? Don't think it ever happened, but it's a retcon that makes sense -- and after the Clone Saga, she never really showed up much, so I can't imagine it influences any past stories negatively.
    Presumably Peter revealed it between panels towards the end of the "I am the Spider" phase, which makes sense (I just read that a month or so ago in the "Lifetheft" collection). She offered Pete the same help she offers Ben here.

    I know she was part of Peter's life in JMD's Spec run after Pete returned. After that she kind of became an infrequent supporting character until being killed off. That hurt more than Marla. I always liked Ashley and am very glad she is back.
    Last edited by exile001; 01-22-2022 at 01:43 PM.
    "Has Sariel summoned you here, Azrael? Have you come to witness the miracle of your brethren arriving on Earth?"

    "I WILL MIX THE ASHES OF YOUR BONES WITH SALT AND USE THEM TO ENSURE THE EARTH THE TEMPLARS TILLED NEVER BEARS FRUIT AGAIN!"

    "*sigh* I hoped it was for the miracle."

    Dan Watters' Azrael was incredible, a constant delight and perhaps too good for this world (but not the Forth). For the love of St. Dumas, DC, give us more!!!

  11. #11
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by exile001 View Post
    Presumably Peter revealed it between panels towards the end of the "I am the Spider" phase, which makes sense (I just read that a month or so ago in the "Lifetheft" collection). She offered Pete the same help she offers Ben here.

    She part of Peter's life after the Clone stuff as she showed up in JMD's Spec run. After that she kind of became an infrequent supporting character until being killed off (that hurt more than Marla. I always liked Ashley).
    Did anyone besides Slott use Kafka after DeMatteis left, but before she got killed? 'Cause I only remember her having a random cameo in the beginning of Slott's run after Big Time, and then she gets killed around the next time she shows up.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    We all know that BND was a collective mid-life crisis from Marvel back then

  12. #12
    Incredible Member SplinteringHeart's Avatar
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    I'm surprised that you Ben Reilly fans aren't properly outraged by ASM #86! I am..I like Ben, I'm happy for him to be around, I see him as Peter's brother, but Peter is my Spider-Man for sure.

    In ASM #86 Ben remains naive about Beyond, struggling to believe the evidence handed to him by Otto..that's the least of it, but then having got the picture and warning Janine, he stupidly talks with Dr Kafka (note Otto shows him that beyond science/medical staff has mind wiped him already)...he has no sense of self preservation (shame he hasn't got some sort of spider-sense eh?) and continues to naively blunder in..and gets captured and mind wiped some more...

    He's getting mind wiped! This is disgusting abuse...and after that business of being killed over and over again...this is no interesting development, this is not good writing of the character by Zeb Wells..it's out of order!

  13. #13
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SplinteringHeart View Post
    I'm surprised that you Ben Reilly fans aren't properly outraged by ASM #86! I am..I like Ben, I'm happy for him to be around, I see him as Peter's brother, but Peter is my Spider-Man for sure.

    In ASM #86 Ben remains naive about Beyond, struggling to believe the evidence handed to him by Otto..that's the least of it, but then having got the picture and warning Janine, he stupidly talks with Dr Kafka (note Otto shows him that beyond science/medical staff has mind wiped him already)...he has no sense of self preservation (shame he hasn't got some sort of spider-sense eh?) and continues to naively blunder in..and gets captured and mind wiped some more...

    He's getting mind wiped! This is disgusting abuse...and after that business of being killed over and over again...this is no interesting development, this is not good writing of the character by Zeb Wells..it's out of order!
    That's understandable. I've still got some hope that Ben will find his way back, but this is not a good situation for him at all.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  14. #14
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SplinteringHeart View Post
    I'm surprised that you Ben Reilly fans aren't properly outraged by ASM #86! I am..I like Ben, I'm happy for him to be around, I see him as Peter's brother, but Peter is my Spider-Man for sure.

    In ASM #86 Ben remains naive about Beyond, struggling to believe the evidence handed to him by Otto..that's the least of it, but then having got the picture and warning Janine, he stupidly talks with Dr Kafka (note Otto shows him that beyond science/medical staff has mind wiped him already)...he has no sense of self preservation (shame he hasn't got some sort of spider-sense eh?) and continues to naively blunder in..and gets captured and mind wiped some more...

    He's getting mind wiped! This is disgusting abuse...and after that business of being killed over and over again...this is no interesting development, this is not good writing of the character by Zeb Wells..it's out of order!
    Ben has been fucked over for the last years, and despite how much Beyond made him into a chump, this is apparently the best he's been characterized in years, which, considering how much he's being a naíve dumbass, tells you how bad he had it lol.

    And while ASM#86 still has him being a dumbass, he's at least realizing the whole Beyond nonsense isn't as good as he thought, so that's somethin' at least.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    We all know that BND was a collective mid-life crisis from Marvel back then

  15. #15
    Incredible Member Aura Blaize's Avatar
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    Beyond fucking with Ben's memories puts a few things in perspective and explains some grievances I've had (Namely why he doesn't remember Otto). I'm curious as to where this is going. That being said, I am glad that next issue is focusing more on Peter. I think there's more at stake with him than they're letting on as well.

    BR:SM was pretty....sensational. I don't remember Ben being quite as edgy back then, but it seriously fits, considering all he's been through. It seriously felt like it was 96 again. And given the fact that the Clone Saga was when I REALLY started getting into Spider-Man, that's a very good thing.

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