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  1. #91
    Astonishing Member Vortex85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinkerSpider View Post
    You left out Stan Lee, who wanted to marry Peter and MJ for the daily newspaper strip, which is how Shooter got the idea in the first place.

    I do find it ironic the editorial staff still seems to believe, "Oh noes we can't have a married Spider-Man-- or even one in a committed relationship-- won't someone think of the children!!!!" and yet give the book to a writer best known for a story in which a child begs for his life before his father rips him apart and eats him.
    Yep, that and Michelinie himself came around on the marriage after writing it a bit after initially just doing it because he was told. Then JMS said he loved writing them as married and was bummed with the mandate to end the marriage. We know Fraction was pro-marriage. Conway supported it even though he didn't know if he felt they should be and even wrote parallel lives which shows them as married and destined to be that way. He is the biggest Peter/MJ shipper of all. I guarantee there are lots of writers behind the scenes who want them married who keep quiet to protect themselves. Post-OMD there was tons of anit-marriage propaganda put out that only showed one side of the story on purpose. DeFaclco became pro marraige and wanted Peter to keep the child and be a father, ON RECORD. He is totally anti-OMD. With a few senior edtiors and execs anti-marriage, all the underlings have to keep quiet on the stance as they can't oppose their managers' stances.
    Last edited by Vortex85; 01-20-2022 at 02:53 PM.

  2. #92
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vortex85 View Post
    Yep, that and Michelinie himself came around on the marriage after writing it a bit after initially just doing it because he was told. Then JMS said he loved writing them as married and was bummed with the mandate to end the marriage. We know Fraction was pro-marriage. Conway supported it even though he didn't know if he felt they should be and even wrote parallel lives which shows them as married and destined to be that way. He is the biggest Peter/MJ shipper of all. I guarantee there are lots of writers behind the scenes who want them married who keep quiet to protect themselves. Post-OMD there was tons of anit-marriage propaganda put out that only showed one side of the story on purpose. DeFaclco became pro marraige and wanted Peter to keep the child and be a father, ON RECORD. He is totally anti-OMD. With a few senior edtiors and execs anti-marriage, all the underlings have to keep quiet on the stance as they can't oppose their managers' stances.
    Corporate micromanagement B.S. ruins everything, as do stubborn MFs in positions of power and authority who can't accept when they're wrong and instead just double down using that power and authority to distort and deny reality.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  3. #93
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vortex85 View Post
    You could take out KLH and there would be 100s of issues that show that, so no need to require that as part of it. I think the emotional pull of them being recently married and having 2 weeks stolen from them enhanced and made it better in a more tragic and serious nature. Happy accident if they weren't married when it was drawn at first.
    MJ does tend to benefit from happy accidents, as I've noticed after a while lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sr. Bungle View Post
    Why not the original Jill? I wouldn't mind
    I'm not sure if Marvel even knows Jill exists, much less making her return randomly lol.

    Michelle Gonzalez too


    Quote Originally Posted by bob.schoonover View Post
    spoilers:
    This would honestly be a great gag. Maybe it can result in some sort of Cable/Mayday Parker team up, too.
    end of spoilers
    spoilers:
    It would also continue the weird gags around Madelyne's name, since apparently Sinister gave her the "Pryor" last name as a joke, and hey, we can get this team-up you suggested too, to not waste the one time it could kinda make sense for it to happen .
    end of spoilers

    I have no idea where any of these little teaser hints are going (or how many of them are proper teasers vs just throwing stuff at the wall), but I figure it's gotta be at least somewhat likely that that is MJ from an alternate reality (like Aaron's recent Heroes Reborn reality) and has nothing to do with ASM proper. But if it does have to do with ASM, the caption says something about fallen heroes, so it'll be a little while before we get to that (at least past Wells and Romita's first arc).
    If it's a random alternate universe it would be such a cop-out lol.

    Of course, it's still a possibility, but man it's just the laziest way to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by RJT View Post
    This really flies in the face of the documented evidence, which is that the marriage was an *editorial fiat* from Jim Shooter that no Spider-Man writer was in favor of at the time. There’s a book of interviews with Spider-Man creators and they are almost to a one vocal in how much they thought the marriage was a mistake. (only JM DeMatteis seems to have warmed to the idea.) Tom DeFalco and Ron Frenz who were the creative team on Amazing had plans for Peter and MJ to get engaged and for MJ to leave him at the altar. According to Sean Howe’s book Shooter has to plot the annual and novice Paul Ryan had to draw it because other creators kept turning it down. So it’s funny that people get all up in arms about editorial mandates and Peter and Mary Jane being written out of character because without those two things the wedding wouldn’t have happened at all.
    Yep, and not only that, the marriage itself was rushed and started in a really awkward way, since Peter was more or less in a relationship with Felicia at the time, and while they did break up in Spectacular, that doesn't mean he's ready to get married with MJ, 'cause keeping Spectacular in mind makes it look like MJ is just a rebound, it was all rushed and awkward.

    But even bad things can become good stuff after a while, marriage gave Peter a relationship that wasn't mostly toxic for once (The best one he had before this was with Felicia, since they had good chemistry, but she didn't move on from crime, couldn't put up with Peter Parker side, and then later she started to manipulate him out of spite before she left for Europe, so yeah), MJ wasn't reduced to just being his wife, she still had a character and interacted with him accordingly, which gave them fun chemistry, and yes, she was also poorly written, and she was barely better than Gwen or Betty in those times, if better at all, and if that's enough for one to see the marriage as trash, that's fine, but again, there were ups and downs on the marriage, it's not just good or bad stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    You can still be an every man and be married. The two really aren't mutually exclusive. A perfectly faultless interesting character with a carefree life, though? Pretty much impossible.
    What are you talking about? Everyone knows that every men are immortal characters who age backwards once they reach a specific age, who never should get married, never leave a dead end job for long, and whatever development they make in their life is destroyed so they go back to their usual mediocrity.

    That's how an every man do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vortex85 View Post
    Conway supported it even though he didn't know if he felt they should be and even wrote parallel lives which shows them as married and destined to be that way. He is the biggest Peter/MJ shipper of all.
    Thinking of it, does that mean aunt May is Conway's spirit animal? .

    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Corporate micromanagement B.S. ruins everything, as do stubborn MFs in positions of power and authority who can't accept when they're wrong and instead just double down using that power and authority to distort and deny reality.
    Still kinda funny that it was editorial mandates that got 'em married to begin with lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    We all know that BND was a collective mid-life crisis from Marvel back then

  4. #94
    Really Feeling It! Kevinroc's Avatar
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    If Marvel remembered Jill Stacy existed, they'd probably build her Earth-65 counterpart up as a Spider-Gwen supporting character.

  5. #95
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    MJ does tend to benefit from happy accidents, as I've noticed after a while lol.



    I'm not sure if Marvel even knows Jill exists, much less making her return randomly lol.







    spoilers:
    It would also continue the weird gags around Madelyne's name, since apparently Sinister gave her the "Pryor" last name as a joke, and hey, we can get this team-up you suggested too, to not waste the one time it could kinda make sense for it to happen .
    end of spoilers



    If it's a random alternate universe it would be such a cop-out lol.

    Of course, it's still a possibility, but man it's just the laziest way to go.



    Yep, and not only that, the marriage itself was rushed and started in a really awkward way, since Peter was more or less in a relationship with Felicia at the time, and while they did break up in Spectacular, that doesn't mean he's ready to get married with MJ, 'cause keeping Spectacular in mind makes it look like MJ is just a rebound, it was all rushed and awkward.

    But even bad things can become good stuff after a while, marriage gave Peter a relationship that wasn't mostly toxic for once (The best one he had before this was with Felicia, since they had good chemistry, but she didn't move on from crime, couldn't put up with Peter Parker side, and then later she started to manipulate him out of spite before she left for Europe, so yeah), MJ wasn't reduced to just being his wife, she still had a character and interacted with him accordingly, which gave them fun chemistry, and yes, she was also poorly written, and she was barely better than Gwen or Betty in those times, if better at all, and if that's enough for one to see the marriage as trash, that's fine, but again, there were ups and downs on the marriage, it's not just good or bad stuff.



    What are you talking about? Everyone knows that every men are immortal characters who age backwards once they reach a specific age, who never should get married, never leave a dead end job for long, and whatever development they make in their life is destroyed so they go back to their usual mediocrity.

    That's how an every man do.



    Thinking of it, does that mean aunt May is Conway's spirit animal? .



    Still kinda funny that it was editorial mandates that got 'em married to begin with lol.
    At least it was an editorial mandate that added to the character rather than reduced the character.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    Corporate micromanagement B.S. ruins everything, as do stubborn MFs in positions of power and authority who can't accept when they're wrong and instead just double down using that power and authority to distort and deny reality.
    Peter and Mary Jane wouldn't have been married at all if not for corporate micromanagement BS. You can't have it both ways.

  7. #97
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I mean, does anyone really want to go back to the relationship stuff of the BND-Slott era? It's not like they did a great job of selling a single Peter or a Peter away from MJ.

    I hope this doesn't just put MJ in limbo for the umpteenth time.
    Quote Originally Posted by RJT View Post
    Peter and Mary Jane wouldn't have been married at all if not for corporate micromanagement BS. You can't have it both ways.
    Happy accidents .

  8. #98
    Astonishing Member Jman27's Avatar
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    been at work all day first thing I see. well I don't want to overreact. but since the synopsis of the first issue made Peter alone with his heroes friends and Aunt May and they trying to make Peter totally alone like a certain some one?
    "He's pure power and doesn't even know it. He's the best of us."-Matt Murdock

    "I need a reason to take the mask off."-Peter Parker

    "My heart half-breaks at how easy it is to lie to him. It breaks all the way when he believes me without question." Felicia Hardy

  9. #99
    Incredible Member Webhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, does anyone really want to go back to the relationship stuff of the BND-Slott era? It's not like they did a great job of selling a single Peter or a Peter away from MJ.
    It's been a while, but did any of the pre-Carlie romantic leads ever go anywhere? Even if you read a SM comic for titillation, there wasn't much of that going around iirc.

    Edit: SM comic for titillation? That sure came out wrong.

  10. #100
    Take Me Higher The Negative Zone's Avatar
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    I think you guys are overreacting the premise of the run is everyone is mad at Peter because of something he did so this kind of makes sense. Not that the premise is exciting, but this isn't the character regression you're all thinking tbh

  11. #101
    Incredible Member Webhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Negative Zone View Post
    I think you guys are overreacting the premise of the run is everyone is mad at Peter because of something he did so this kind of makes sense. Not that the premise is exciting, but this isn't the character regression you're all thinking tbh
    I agree that it's too early to jump into conclusions. But goodwill is running dangerously low after the messy wrap of Spencer's run.

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by HypnoHustler View Post
    I doubt this was Zeb Wells’ doing. Probably editorial meddling again. They’d kill off MJ if they could get away with it.
    I forget, but wasn't Wells one of the writers on ASM saying MJ/Peter was bad during Brand New Day? I thought I remember him saying this in a Newsarama interview.

  13. #103
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    Dont think he ever said that

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJT View Post
    Peter and Mary Jane wouldn't have been married at all if not for corporate micromanagement BS. You can't have it both ways.

    That’s not precisely true, according to Peter David in an article originally published in 1998. It was Stan Lee’s idea, and Stan was writing the newspaper comic strip, which technically makes the marriage a writer-driven idea.

    “Stan became enamored of the notion of Peter getting married both in the comic and in the comic strip, and more or less steamrolled it through by going public with it before any of the powers-that-be could talk him out of it. Me, I thought it was a nifty idea, but no one ever accused me of being excessively smart.”

  15. #105
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    If Marvel remembered Jill Stacy existed, they'd probably build her Earth-65 counterpart up as a Spider-Gwen supporting character.
    Reminds me that Jill tried to date Peter after MJ was thought to be dead, would an Earth-65 Jill pull a reversal on that and try to date MJ after Peter's death? .

    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    At least it was an editorial mandate that added to the character rather than reduced the character.
    Sure, but it was still an awkward editorial mandate, all just so Peter's marriage with MJ lines up with the newspaper's marriage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, does anyone really want to go back to the relationship stuff of the BND-Slott era? It's not like they did a great job of selling a single Peter or a Peter away from MJ.
    And despite BND being about a single Peter, they didn't really tell any stories that relied on Peter being single to begin with lol.

    I hope this doesn't just put MJ in limbo for the umpteenth time.
    Eh, she always comes back from those, even when Slott tried to get rid of her, she came back in another comic.

    Hell, maybe Zeb Wells will throw her into space to try to get rid of her, and then after a few months we'll have a F4 or Hulk story where we learn that she landed in Sakaar or somethin'.

    Happy accidents =).
    MJ's entire life story really lol.

    Hey I don't think either Mayday or Annie were planned kids too, so she also made happy accidents .

    Quote Originally Posted by Webhead View Post
    It's been a while, but did any of the pre-Carlie romantic leads ever go anywhere? Even if you read a SM comic for titillation, there wasn't much of that going around iirc.
    BND introduced 3 love interests, but Norah wasn't interested in Peter besides annoying him, she even licked his face once to irk him, but I think she started to date Randy after a while.

    Michelle, they had sex once when they were drunk, but nothing much happened between them besides that, and the way she got flanderized to become an even bigger bitch than she already was made her even more incompatible with Peter.

    Funnily enough, the best "new" love interest from BND era we got wasn't even in ASM (At least, the flirting wasn't), since Carol had somewhat better chemistry with Peter than Michelle and Carlie, or at least she was the least annoying love interest.

    Edit: SM comic for titillation? That sure came out wrong.
    Marvel should totally release a comic which the abbreviation is "BD:SM" .

    It's not like we can't have such humor in this company, they are the ones who made a comic called "Giant Size Man Thing".

    Quote Originally Posted by The Negative Zone View Post
    I think you guys are overreacting the premise of the run is everyone is mad at Peter because of something he did so this kind of makes sense. Not that the premise is exciting, but this isn't the character regression you're all thinking tbh
    The premise itself is not particularly creative because, not only is the idea of "Everyone hates Spidey" is something that was used a lot since BND, it's also how Spencer's run started.

    But yeah, wait and see to confirm if it's gonna be actual character regression, I just don't trust Zeb Wells to handle MJ properly, but who knows, maybe he can be like Spencer and have early issues be fun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Wayne View Post
    I forget, but wasn't Wells one of the writers on ASM saying MJ/Peter was bad during Brand New Day? I thought I remember him saying this in a Newsarama interview.
    Not sure if he said that, but he didn't seem to be a fan of MJ anyways, and the little of MJ we see in the first two issues of Beyond he wrote, while it's not bad, it's also not really favorable.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    We all know that BND was a collective mid-life crisis from Marvel back then

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