Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 18
  1. #1
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    1,138

    Default ASM theory spoiler warning

    I think Marvel is burning bridges between Peter and the heroes/loved ones in order to set Peter up for a final battle which will end in his death due to the lawsuit Marvel is facing
    A setup for Miles to be the New York spider man and Ben to be the west coast spider man.

  2. #2
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2021
    Posts
    834

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rward777 View Post
    I think Marvel is burning bridges between Peter and the heroes/loved ones in order to set Peter up for a final battle which will end in his death due to the lawsuit Marvel is facing
    A setup for Miles to be the New York spider man and Ben to be the west coast spider man.
    What's the spoiler?

  3. #3

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sr. Bungle View Post
    What's the spoiler?
    Wells's run on ASM has Peter at odds with the other heroes, Aunt May and MJ.

    Check the April solicits.

  4. #4
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Posts
    7,019

    Default

    Likely not, They aren't ever giving up on Spidey/Peter

    He's still in the MCU which is far more massive than comics

  5. #5
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    1,730

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rward777 View Post
    I think Marvel is burning bridges between Peter and the heroes/loved ones in order to set Peter up for a final battle which will end in his death due to the lawsuit Marvel is facing
    A setup for Miles to be the New York spider man and Ben to be the west coast spider man.
    This should have a fan-fiction warning instead of a spoiler warning lol.

    No, that’s not happening.

  6. #6
    A Green Unpleasant Man Rob London's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    576

    Default

    If you think Marvel is burning this bridge, I've got one in Brooklyn to sell you.

  7. #7
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Posts
    1,537

    Default

    This theory doesn't pass muster. The lawsuit is not a slam dunk against Marvel (I'm not sure it's even anything more than a nuisance), and the way it gets resolved is via Disney spending more money, not on losing the rights entirely. It's worth noting that, even if the lawsuits were somewhat successful, the Ditko estate would not have the rights to most of the Spider-man characters (whether or not AF15 counted as work for hire, the rest of the issues certainly would have counted that way, so Ditko's estate might get partial ownership of Spidey, Aunt May, Flash, and Liz, but not any of the villains, symbiotes, Jonah, Gwen, MJ, etc.) and would only have partial ownership of SM - there's not a whole lot they can do with that other than take more money from Disney (because Disney would be the other partial owner).

    As a side note, Ben would most likely be considered such a derivative character that his ownership situation would end up being whatever Peter's ended up being (think about it - if you can just clone a character and give them a new name to shift the copyright, there's no reason for Marvel not to do that with everyone - resolve the Death of Dr Strange w/a clone of Stephen, boom, we're clear!!).

    The part I really don't understand is the idea that Peter being set apart from everyone is somehow a new concept. Marvel does this all the time: after Secret Empire, during and after Superior Spider-man, right before JMS came aboard, etc. Spider-man is very often bereft of allies, then powers through anyway.
    Last edited by bob.schoonover; 01-20-2022 at 01:54 PM.
    Blue text denotes sarcasm

  8. #8
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    1,138

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bob.schoonover View Post
    This theory doesn't pass muster. The lawsuit is not a slam dunk against Marvel (I'm not sure it's even anything more than a nuisance), and the way it gets resolved is via Disney spending more money, not on losing the rights entirely. It's worth noting that, even if the lawsuits were somewhat successful, the Ditko estate would not have the rights to most of the Spider-man characters (whether or not AF15 counted as work for hire, the rest of the issues certainly would have counted that way, so Ditko's estate might get partial ownership of Spidey, Aunt May, Flash, and Liz, but not any of the villains, symbiotes, Jonah, Gwen, MJ, etc.) and would only have partial ownership of SM - there's not a whole lot they can do with that other than take more money from Disney (because Disney would be the other partial owner).

    As a side note, Ben would most likely be considered such a derivative character that his ownership situation would end up being whatever Peter's ended up being (think about it - if you can just clone a character and give them a new name to shift the copyright, there's no reason for Marvel not to do that with everyone - resolve the Death of Dr Strange w/a clone of Stephen, boom, we're clear!!).

    The part I really don't understand is the idea that Peter being set apart from everyone is somehow a new concept. Marvel does this all the time: after Secret Empire, during and after Superior Spider-man, right before JMS came aboard, etc. Spider-man is very often bereft of allies, then powers through anyway.
    Well before, Peter always had at least one or two people in his corner, but this story line seems to isolate Peter more than usual

  9. #9
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Posts
    5,072

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    He's still in the MCU which is far more massive than comics
    I still find it funny that since Spidey showed up in MCU, we get silly rights issues like those with him lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by bob.schoonover View Post
    This theory doesn't pass muster. The lawsuit is not a slam dunk against Marvel (I'm not sure it's even anything more than a nuisance), and the way it gets resolved is via Disney spending more money, not on losing the rights entirely. It's worth noting that, even if the lawsuits were somewhat successful, the Ditko estate would not have the rights to most of the Spider-man characters (whether or not AF15 counted as work for hire, the rest of the issues certainly would have counted that way, so Ditko's estate might get partial ownership of Spidey, Aunt May, Flash, and Liz, but not any of the villains, symbiotes, Jonah, Gwen, MJ, etc.) and would only have partial ownership of SM - there's not a whole lot they can do with that other than take more money from Disney (because Disney would be the other partial owner).
    I don't get it, why are JJ, Gwen, and the villains who debutted in Ditko's run not part of the group of characters who would be given partial ownership to Ditko state? Those characters were created in his run, and aunt May being included, but not JJ , Liz being included, but not Gwen, is hella arbitrary lol.

    I can imagine why MJ could not be included, she shows up once and we don't even really see her, so maybe some legal bullshit can say she didn't actually debut under Ditko, but Gwen got enough screen time in his run, regardless of how late she showed up.

    Quote Originally Posted by rward777 View Post
    Well before, Peter always had at least one or two people in his corner, but this story line seems to isolate Peter more than usual
    We'll see if he's really getting more isolated than usual or not, solicits often exaggerate or outright lie.
    Last edited by Lukmendes; 01-20-2022 at 08:14 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    We all know that BND was a collective mid-life crisis from Marvel back then

  10. #10
    Keeper of the Torch Ravin' Ray's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Where the Diwatas and the Triumph Division live
    Posts
    7,952

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    We'll see if he's really getting more isolated than usual or not, solicits often exaggerate or outright lie.
    It would take a lot for Peter and Johnny to have a colossal fallout so it better be good.
    Human Torch/Fantastic Four/She-Hulk/Disney Big Hero 6 /Tangled/G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero/Transformers G1 fanatic, Avatar-maker, and Marvel Moderator
    "一人じゃないから。" AI、『Story』。
    "ヒロ、お前を信じてる。" タダシ、『ベイマックス』。
    "You were my my new dream." "And you were mine." Eugene Fitzherbert and Rapunzel.
    "Knowing is half the battle."
    G.I. Joe.
    Know the CBR Community STANDARDS & RULES

  11. #11
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Posts
    5,072

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravin' Ray View Post
    It would take a lot for Peter and Johnny to have a colossal fallout so it better be good.
    I mean, Spencer's run had Jones, Luke and Matt being pissed off with Peter just because Fisk is showing approval of Spider-Man, even though whenever they interact in public Spidey basically tells him to fuck off, so those 3 should've realized something was up, and Daredevil of all people didn't lol.

    So yeah, point is, bad writing will separate characters if it requires for it to happen, and I don't believe it'll be something that makes sense, unless maybe the "Everybody hates Spidey" arc is a fake out and they're just pretending Spidey is isolated for some reason, I dunno, comic books are dumb lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    We all know that BND was a collective mid-life crisis from Marvel back then

  12. #12
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Posts
    7,019

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    I mean, Spencer's run had Jones, Luke and Matt being pissed off with Peter just because Fisk is showing approval of Spider-Man, even though whenever they interact in public Spidey basically tells him to fuck off, so those 3 should've realized something was up, and Daredevil of all people didn't lol.

    So yeah, point is, bad writing will separate characters if it requires for it to happen, and I don't believe it'll be something that makes sense, unless maybe the "Everybody hates Spidey" arc is a fake out and they're just pretending Spidey is isolated for some reason, I dunno, comic books are dumb lol.
    They did patch up by the end of the run IIRC

    And Matt is on great terms w/ Peter during Fisk's run as Mayor in his book

  13. #13
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2017
    Posts
    1,537

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    I don't get it, why are JJ, Gwen, and the villains who debutted in Ditko's run not part of the group of characters who would be given partial ownership to Ditko state? Those characters were created in his run, and aunt May being included, but not JJ , Liz being included, but not Gwen, is hella arbitrary lol.

    I can imagine why MJ could not be included, she shows up once and we don't even really see her, so maybe some legal bullshit can say she didn't actually debut under Ditko, but Gwen got enough screen time in his run, regardless of how late she showed up.
    I'm not a legal expert or anything, but (a) I don't think this lawsuit will go anywhere (there seem to be some timing issues that don't make sense to me) and (b) even if it does, Ditko's estate would only have partial ownership of the copyright (see text below), so I don't believe they'd have the ability to stop Marvel from publishing anything at all. The reason I don't think they'd get everything (besides the absurdity of fighting for each and every piece) is perhaps flawed (again, not a legal expert), but based on how the Siegel and Shuster lawsuit went down - the courts parsed very carefully what work was done when, under what contract terms, and how many of the elements of the character were initially there on the page, so I started with just the cast of AF15 as the "this is who they might get more rights to." Peter is essentially unchanged since AF15 (he's aged, but his powers, look, and personality are basically the same). But something like Norman/Green Goblin would be incredibly weird to parse out since both characters appeared in Ditko's work, but he was against them being the same person and that was not revealed during his run. MJ definitely wouldn't count as a Ditko creation in any reasonable interpretation.

    Anyway, I'm pretty certain this lawsuit will, at most, cost Disney some money, and anyone that thinks the threat of the lawsuit is motivating Marvel's editorial decisions right now is laughably wrong (if for no other reason than they can tie this up in court for YEARS so there's no reason to think they'd do a story right now).


    "When only one of multiple co-authors effectuates termination, that author becomes a co-copyright owner and may license use of the underlying copyright on a non exclusive basis, subject to a duty to account to the co-owners. If the other co-authors do not terminate, their grantee arrangements remain unchanged. After the effective termination date the right to grant exclusive licenses requires the authority and consent of all copyright co-owners – including all co-authors who terminated (or their subsequent assignees)."
    Blue text denotes sarcasm

  14. #14
    All-New Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2022
    Posts
    12

    Default

    I don't think this lawsuit from Ditko's brother will go anywhere.

  15. #15
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Posts
    5,072

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    They did patch up by the end of the run IIRC
    Unfortunately, they didn't, not counting the flashback in Sins Rising, this is the last time Matt showed up in ASM:



    (ASM#37 vol 5)

    The best situation to patch up the relationship would be in King's Ransom, where Spidey did patch up the relationship with some other heroes, but that was a New Avengers reunion, and Matt wasn't in it, so yeah...

    And Matt is on great terms w/ Peter during Fisk's run as Mayor in his book
    He is yeah, which makes the way Matt talks about Peter in his own comic stand out, 'cause we have ASM#1 vol 5 where Peter tries to talk with Matt and he ignores Peter, then DD#5 vol 6 with Matt saying "He is pure power, and doesn't even know it, the best of us", then we get ASM#37 where he's still pissed with Peter, and then DD#23 where him and Spidey have a heart to heart, makes Matt look like he's bipolar lol.

    It wouldn't be as bad if Matt didn't show up in ASM after #1, that way could maybe think that they talked and fixed the relationship off-screen, but fact that Matt returned in ASM#37, and he was still pissed, yeah...

    At the very least, those are just brief gags and not a big deal in ASM, so it doesn't hurt what happens in DD's comic that much.

    Quote Originally Posted by bob.schoonover View Post
    I'm not a legal expert or anything, but (a) I don't think this lawsuit will go anywhere (there seem to be some timing issues that don't make sense to me) and (b) even if it does, Ditko's estate would only have partial ownership of the copyright (see text below), so I don't believe they'd have the ability to stop Marvel from publishing anything at all. The reason I don't think they'd get everything (besides the absurdity of fighting for each and every piece) is perhaps flawed (again, not a legal expert), but based on how the Siegel and Shuster lawsuit went down - the courts parsed very carefully what work was done when, under what contract terms, and how many of the elements of the character were initially there on the page, so I started with just the cast of AF15 as the "this is who they might get more rights to." Peter is essentially unchanged since AF15 (he's aged, but his powers, look, and personality are basically the same). But something like Norman/Green Goblin would be incredibly weird to parse out since both characters appeared in Ditko's work, but he was against them being the same person and that was not revealed during his run. MJ definitely wouldn't count as a Ditko creation in any reasonable interpretation.
    Oh, the lawsuit is definitely not going anywhere, the justice system is a joke and the rich and powerful always win out in the end, so even if we say Ditko's state is right, Disney is winning anyways.

    Anyways, I was just wondering why you listed Gwen and JJ as characters he wouldn't have the rights to, 'cause again, they were part of Ditko's run, and showed up enough in it.

    I also think GG would be included as something Ditko's state manages to win (which ain't happening anyways), while we don't see in the run itself, Norman actually was planned to be GG, it's even hinted at in ASM#27:



    Since you can see Norman's hairstyle on the shadow, and similarly, in ASM#19, when you can see the shadow of the "mysterious" character who hired Gargan, he has JJ's hair style:



    And even if Ditko's run never confirmed that GG is Norman, well, Romita confirmed that GG, a character created by Ditko, is Norman Osborn, another character created by Ditko, I don't see how that wouldn't go to Ditko state on the unlikely chance they won.

    Anyway, I'm pretty certain this lawsuit will, at most, cost Disney some money, and anyone that thinks the threat of the lawsuit is motivating Marvel's editorial decisions right now is laughably wrong (if for no other reason than they can tie this up in court for YEARS so there's no reason to think they'd do a story right now).
    Yeah, no way Disney is losing this lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    We all know that BND was a collective mid-life crisis from Marvel back then

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •