The 2010s have replaced the 1990s as the worst period for Marvel Comics?

[jackolover]

This right here. I was waiting for some one to bring up the oughts. The early oughts were good though. So for me, the weak decade might be in the 2005-2014 range.

That era was seen as the most divisive, I have noticed, with people either backing it, or unable to read it. It completely turned superheroes on their head, and you were either excited that it happened, or appalled that Marvel took away the reason people read their heroes.

[jackolover]

But they went bankrupt because of business dealings that had absolutely nothing to do with the comics published or the stories being told. People seem to treat the bankruptcy as if it was because the comics were bad, but they had no impact on what happened.

And while I'm at it, Marvel also pulled itself out of bankruptcy before Joe Quesada was EiC. Again, not that the publishing had anything to do with it, but people always attribute him with saving the company when it had been saved before he was in the position.

I always thought Joe Quesada saved Marvel because I, and a load of others, bought troves of comics from 2005 onwards with Civil War. It invigorated the brand with CW, (except of course for those that fled in disgust).

And are you referring to the sale of Marvel to Perlmutter in the 1990’s as the saviour of Marvel incident?

All I'll say is I loved the launch of Marvel NOW! branding (2012 I think) until Secret Wars. I fed like a little happy pig but things went wrong after Marvel NOW! 2.0 and Marvel Legacy. I know I started checking out after these two rebranding. I hardly read that many books and these days I just follow 3 books that I previously enjoyed.

A lot of the post-Secret Empire/Marvel Legacy I bought, I could throw away. The 2020’s are like that too. No memorable runs for me. Just rehashed Events from previous years. The 2020’s could be like the 70’s or 90’s if it goes on like it is. No gravitas.

[sunofdarkchild]

The way I see it, Marvel in general hasn't been good since the 80s. The decline started when they brought Jean Grey back and decided to pander to nostalgia with X-Factor in 1985, and accelerated when Bob Harris joined the company and began elevating artists like Jim Lee and Rob Liefeld over writers like Chris Claremont. These factors led to old stories being recycled and natural character progression being an afterthought at best. The valuing of artist over writer eventually ended, but the focus on nostalgia and rehashing old stories over letting stories and characters develop naturally has remained a big problem at Marvel.

The biggest advantage the 90s have over the 2010s is that the creators, even the really bad ones like Liefeld, were still very energetic and enthusiastic about their work. I think Jim Lee's ideas were horrible and caused problems for the X-Men they never recovered from, but his goal was always to tell good X-Men stories. Rob Liefeld doesn't understand human anatomy, but he still poured his soul into his drawings. Nowadays there are too many writers at both Marvel and DC who don't actually care about the characters they write about or about telling a good story. The only thing they care about is the political message of their stories. Have all the political messages you want, but for the love of god put some focus into the quality of your writing first.

[Anthony W]

The biggest advantage the 90s have over the 2010s is that the creators, even the really bad ones like Liefeld, were still very energetic and enthusiastic about their work. I think Jim Lee's ideas were horrible and caused problems for the X-Men they never recovered from, but his goal was always to tell good X-Men stories. Rob Liefeld doesn't understand human anatomy, but he still poured his soul into his drawings. Nowadays there are too many writers at both Marvel and DC who don't actually care about the characters they write about or about telling a good story. The only thing they care about is the political message of their stories. Have all the political messages you want, but for the love of god put some focus into the quality of your writing first.

It's not so much political messaging its just the need to get noticed by a streaming service or have people sing your praises on social media. Comics are seen as a stop on the road to the place you really want to be.

[Baron of Faltine]

It's not so much political messaging its just the need to get noticed by a streaming service or have people sing your praises on social media. Comics are seen as a stop on the road to the place you really want to be.

Yeah the unnerving thing about this soapbox speeches is that are mostly surface level(perhaps inevitable due the medium) and you often get the feeling that at least for some of the authors and editors is just tk make some advertisements to themselves, their ideas, the comic itself or whatever.

[skyvolt2000]

Nowadays there are too many writers at both Marvel and DC who don't actually care about the characters they write about or about telling a good story. The only thing they care about is the political message of their stories. Have all the political messages you want, but for the love of god put some focus into the quality of your writing first.

Care to name the writers who do this???
Name the book and what page this is done on.

Too many folks keep tossing this claim out but NEVER back it up. Especially at creators of color.
Which constantly boils down to folks NOT reading the books and listening to hearsay and youtubers looking for hits.

Ms Marvel having a book is NOT a political statement.
Iceman and America Chavez having books are NOT political Statements.

We have books with POC, LGBTQA and so on EVERYWHERE. LOL by some of the same writers at Marvel & DC.
Yet HERE and at DC these are viewed as statements.

[Ultimate Captain America]

There's that "Marvel Voices" TPB about latin characters, with Spider-Girl wasting several pages explaining why the term "latinx" is cool. Robbie Reyes should grab her and give her the Penance stare.

[Force de Phenix]

Care to name the writers who do this???
Name the book and what page this is done on.

Too many folks keep tossing this claim out but NEVER back it up. Especially at creators of color.
Which constantly boils down to folks NOT reading the books and listening to hearsay and youtubers looking for hits.

Ms Marvel having a book is NOT a political statement.
Iceman and America Chavez having books are NOT political Statements.

We have books with POC, LGBTQA and so on EVERYWHERE. LOL by some of the same writers at Marvel & DC.
Yet HERE and at DC these are viewed as statements.

You took the words from underneath my fingers. Simply existing is a political statement because people are telling "us" this. It wouldn't be an issue if they hadn't made it one in the first place.

The way I see it, Marvel in general hasn't been good since the 80s. The decline started when they brought Jean Grey back and decided to pander to nostalgia with X-Factor in 1985, and accelerated when Bob Harris joined the company and began elevating artists like Jim Lee and Rob Liefeld over writers like Chris Claremont. These factors led to old stories being recycled and natural character progression being an afterthought at best. The valuing of artist over writer eventually ended, but the focus on nostalgia and rehashing old stories over letting stories and characters develop naturally has remained a big problem at Marvel.

Marvel is a company that wants returns on their products. It's like a lot of Hollywood movies. They make comics as a product to sell, so they use a formula that works, and when they tried something new, it was attacked. The vitriol from the Marvel NOW era just solidified that comics are not meant to evolve because of the nature of its fanbase.

The crybabies with the non-stop "they're shoving XYZ down our throats" fomented a mob mentality. It was like they couldn't articulate what they wanted to say specifically, or were trying to not sound like the people they really were.

Writers today are childhood fans of what they're writing, so they are going to feed into nostalgia for their own sake, and they rarely write new characters. The Marvel NOW era was taking a risk, and based on the title of this thread, people prefer reading recycled sh*t with small changes. If it weren't for that era, we wouldn't have a lot of the new characters, although some have been abandoned.

The only thing they care about is the political message of their stories. Have all the political messages you want, but for the love of god put some focus into the quality of your writing first.

What do political messages have to do with good or poor quality. The problem (for some) is the quality despite anything "political." What does political even mean in this case? Minorities with books? Like, people complain about minorities in reboots with a strong emphasis on the minorities in them, when they could just say "reboots suck" or "the dialogue and story were sh*t."

[Force de Phenix]

There's that "Marvel Voices" TPB about latin characters, with Spider-Girl wasting several pages explaining why the term "latinx" is cool. Robbie Reyes should grab her and give her the Penance stare.

I don't know why this term triggers people so much. I would argue that people should just use the English word "latin" since English is a gender neutral language, in other words, English doesn't assign genders to words. In Spanish, the people who use gender neutral adjectives and animate nouns would say either "latine" or "latinoa." The government and institutions forbid its use in some places.

[Baron of Faltine]

Care to name the writers who do this???
Name the book and what page this is done on.

Too many folks keep tossing this claim out but NEVER back it up. Especially at creators of color.
Which constantly boils down to folks NOT reading the books and listening to hearsay and youtubers looking for hits.

Ms Marvel having a book is NOT a political statement.
Iceman and America Chavez having books are NOT political Statements.

We have books with POC, LGBTQA and so on EVERYWHERE. LOL by some of the same writers at Marvel & DC.
Yet HERE and at DC these are viewed as statements.

Is not the LGBTQA the issue, infact the main problem is outside the comics, wiht authors and fandom interacting in way before was not possible and...ending it poorly. And both parts are equally responsible for it.
Fandom are not exactly exception at whole at commm,unicating their frustrations and axiety toward characters that perhaps they care bit too much, and authors are better at communicating with their favored MEDIUM, rather than through a computer screen.
Editors/publishers care more about what is fashionable and can sell at any given point. Thye have to. Their job is to SELL comic. At least in this period of tim is priority. LGBTQA sell? MORE LGBTQA !Controversy advertize and generate curiosity about a movie that is fundamentally BLAND (Captain Marvel was the most bland, generic movie I saw in year, she is not even that abrasive or what...I expcted to at least being enraged instead...nothing...Internet lied to me!) Good lets go for it.
No is not political statement, but they(Publishers/authors) try to spin them that way because generate interest. Where media boost the thing even beyond the intention for obvious reason, and in the end become a ngithmarish mess where everybody is angry at everybody else.

[Ultimate Captain America]

I don't know why this term triggers people so much. I would argue that people should just use the English word "latin" since English is a gender neutral language, in other words, English doesn't assign genders to words. In Spanish, the people who use gender neutral adjectives and animate nouns would say either "latine" or "latinoa." The government and institutions forbid its use in some places.

You answered your question yourself. It's a solution for a problem that doesn't even exist, but they get it down your throat anyway.

And for the record, one of the countries where women's rights are the least respected is probably Iran. And guess what, they have a gender-neutral language, too. Meaning... a solution for a problem that does not exist, that they force it down your throat, and which does not even work as they think it does.

America Chavez should have met Spider-Girl after that speech and give her a well-deserved kick in the culo.

[sunofdarkchild]

Care to name the writers who do this???
Name the book and what page this is done on.

Too many folks keep tossing this claim out but NEVER back it up. Especially at creators of color.
Which constantly boils down to folks NOT reading the books and listening to hearsay and youtubers looking for hits.

Ms Marvel having a book is NOT a political statement.
Iceman and America Chavez having books are NOT political Statements.

We have books with POC, LGBTQA and so on EVERYWHERE. LOL by some of the same writers at Marvel & DC.
Yet HERE and at DC these are viewed as statements.

You assume I'm talking about the identity of characters when I'm talking about the stories themselves. There are plenty of examples, from Frank Miller's Holy Terror to last year's United States of 'Captain American Lie.' The one I would focus on right now is Superman: Son of Kal El. The problem with the book is not that Jon is bi- it's that Jon isn't a character but a mouthpiece for Tom Taylor to whine about how Superman should be actively fighting for every left-wing cause under the sun. If Jon were straight it wouldn't solve any of the problems with the book. It's a story where the message is paramount and character is a distant afterthought at best. I know Tom Taylor is better than this because his Dark Knights of Steel actually got me invested. There's a similar problem with the story where Superman gives up his American citizenship. It's not Superman who has a social security number and passport. It's Clark Kent, and Clark didn't give anything up. They wanted to have a controversial story that made headlines and actively pushed Superman away from being an avatar for America, and no attention was paid to whether the story even worked or made any sense for the character. I have no beef with Kamala Khan or America Chavez - I even prefer Kamala to Carol Danvers. Vita Ayala can have as many gay and trans characters as they want as long as they continue to respect the characters like they've been doing in New Mutants. I don't care about Batwoman being gay since she's a well-written character whose solo was well-written, and I think calling off her wedding was a mistake.

The problem of writers or editors not caring does extend beyond the focus on politics. In the X-Men books, Tini Howard doesn't care about half of her cast, Colossus' awful story is a result of no one caring about him, and it seems that editor Jordan White doesn't care about anything, This lack of passion for the product they create is a problem which is far more prevalent now than in the 90s.

Latinx is considered insulting by the very people it refers to. It's a problematic term.

[Force de Phenix]

You answered your question yourself. It's a solution for a problem that doesn't even exist, but they get it down your throat anyway.

And for the record, one of the countries where women's rights are the least respected is probably Iran. And guess what, they have a gender-neutral language, too. Meaning... a solution for a problem that does not exist, that they force it down your throat, and which does not even work as they think it does.

America Chavez should have met Spider-Girl after that speech and give her a well-deserved kick in the culo.

I get that the "Poor us, they're shoving it down our throats. We're victims" people are making it a problem because they're angry at all these new ideas being thrown around that make them feel uncomfortable and invading their "I don't care what other people are facing, I just want to live in my bubble" space.

Readers throwing a temper tantrum over a word that doesn't do harm to anyone and wanting fictional characters to kick another's a** just shows how the response is worse than a couple of people creating a new version of a word to use amongst themselves that government institutions are basically prohibiting. Using latinx does no one harm and is the least of our problems.

Something existing isn't shoving something down anyone's throat.

[Force de Phenix]

Latinx is considered insulting by the very people it refers to. It's a problematic term.

I can guarantee you that it isn't an insult or insulting. Some people don't like it because they're pedantic and don't like counter culture, but the word has no derogatory element to it. It is definitely not a problematic term. Maybe controversial because there is a very powerful mob and intuitions that are against it and want to force people to not use it anymore. They invented it as a shortcut to not say "latino and latina." In Spanish they have even more gender neutral grammar. If you see "latinx" in Spanish, you can either read it "latino" or "latina," or even "latine."

[sunofdarkchild]

I can guarantee you that it isn't an insult or insulting. Some people don't like it because they're pedantic and don't like counter culture, but the word has no derogatory element to it. It is definitely not a problematic term. Maybe controversial because there is a very powerful mob and intuitions that are against it and want to force people to not use it anymore. They invented it as a shortcut to not say "latino and latina." In Spanish they have even more gender neutral grammar. If you see "latinx" in Spanish, you can either read it "latino" or "latina," or even "latine."

Latinx may have been created with good intentions, but it is highly offensive to the people it is meant to refer to. It is a deliberate bastardization of the Spanish language. Only 2% of Hispanics in the US prefer 'latinx,' while 40% find it offensive - other studies put it at 50%. Those numbers become even more lopsided in Spanish-speaking countries. Even some non-binary Hispanic people - the very people the term was created to be inclusive towards, have said that it's problematic because someone who speaks Spanish and not English would have a very difficult time pronouncing it since 'X' has a completely different sound in Spanish. The Spanish-speaking world has developed its own gender-neutral term, latine, which is easier for them to pronounce and works better linguistically.

In your opinion the tens of millions of people who are offended by latinx may be overreacting or misled by bad actors, but the reality is that that is the opinion of tens of millions of Hispanic people in the US alone.