Should Batman (or any superhero, for that matter) kill?

[JackDaw]

I'm not so sure about that. Maybe Reed has unwittingly killed people but I don't recall an example where he does. If it was a villain from the early days, they're probably back anyway.

It appeared like he killed Ben's body as a last resort when that was the only way to save him from Doom's Ovid Mind Transference trick (I don't think he's been seen using it since) in the FF arc Authoritative Action in the Waid/Wieringo run. But Ben was later brought back to life when they found his essence or soul in the Hereafter arc.

What about his membership of the Illuminati? It’s years since I read the Hickman Avengers run…but thought the decisions they made to protect 616 Earth consigned billions of people on other Earths to death.

[Iron Maiden]

Again, you're strawmanning the issue.



If you read the entire conversation I posted rather than focusing solely on the part where Diana says they should have killed Light, you will see that Diana is saying that killing Light would have been preferable to violating his mind. She is saying this in response to Superman's weak argument that the League were justified in mindwiping Light and his attempts to excuse himself for covering it up. Nowhere does she argue that those who perform mindwipes should be killed.



At no point did I say that a decent person shouldn't be affected by killing. My argument was aimed squarely at the idea that a hero who kills even once automatically becomes a villain, or as The Ray put it, "pushed over the edge".

But this is what happens to the John Walker Captain America in the Gruenwald run. When his parents are murdered he is "pushed over the edge" as you call it and goes on a killing spree, again citing this article since I am haven't read that run in a long time. Looks like it's one I should revisit someday.

[Iron Maiden]

What about his membership of the Illuminati? It’s years since I read the Hickman Avengers run…but thought the decisions they made to protect 616 Earth consigned billions of people on other Earths to death.

Yes, you are right about that and it is a no win scenario. Hickman gave them no clean way out. I mentioned that Cap didn't want to go along with it and Doctor Strange mind wiped him I think when they removed him from the group.

How about Susan Richards? I don't think she's killed anyone but was sure tempted by the Psycho Man when she gave him his payback.

[Iron Maiden]

Amazed we have got to page 4 of this topic without anyone submitting “Whatever happened to the Man of Tomorrow?” in evidence…

Well here goes!

I think Alan Moore in that great Superman story effectively gave one answer: that yes, you can write a super hero into a corner, into a situation where he has to kill.

But once that happens, the guys not a hero anymore, certainly not a super hero…that is the point of Superman’s sacrifice of his powers, Superman’s great speech (saying no one has the right to kill, especially Superman), and his retirement.

No, I've never read that but that is a good example.

[Iron Maiden]

Again, you're strawmanning the issue.



If you read the entire conversation I posted rather than focusing solely on the part where Diana says they should have killed Light, you will see that Diana is saying that killing Light would have been preferable to violating his mind. She is saying this in response to Superman's weak argument that the League were justified in mindwiping Light and his attempts to excuse himself for covering it up. Nowhere does she argue that those who perform mindwipes should be killed.

Then you'll have to give more context than the pages you posted . At no point does it appear that she is speaking metaphorically.






Here Superman asks her directly what he should have done






So what does she mean here when she says "you slay the monster" ? IMO it couldn't be more direct than that. She says that Light isn't human and this is the only way to deal with him.

[JackDaw]

No, I've never read that but that is a good example.

I was going to put “required reading”.

But a second later I was laughing at myself…probably the story is only really enjoyable for some one who’s read way too many Silver Age Superman stories (effectively it’s the farewell story for that version of Superman, and pulls together a lot of elements specific to that era.)

( Sadly, I’m old enough to have read a lot of Silver Age Superman…..)

[ed2962]

I'd have to go back and read that myself since it's been a while for me. But from doing a little digging around I was reminded that at some point during his run Cap stepped away from the role of Captain America was replaced by John Walker, who later does go on a killing spree but this article goes into the tragic details of why Walkerton "lost it"

Same here. And I haven't watched the Falcon Winter Soldier TV show but just from seeing people talk about it, I can tell a good chunk of it was influenced by this run.

[ed2962]

Amazed we have got to page 4 of this topic without anyone submitting “Whatever happened to the Man of Tomorrow?” in evidence…

Well here goes!

I think Alan Moore in that great Superman story effectively gave one answer: that yes, you can write a super hero into a corner, into a situation where he has to kill.

But once that happens, the guys not a hero anymore, certainly not a super hero…that is the point of Superman’s sacrifice of his powers, Superman’s great speech (saying no one has the right to kill, especially Superman), and his retirement.

It's worth mentioning that during John Bryne's run, Byrne had Supes kill General Zod and his crew who were from an alternative world. They had just destroyed an entire planet and even though Supes stopped them, they were defiant and promised to escape to our world and destroy it as well. Supes exposed them to kryptonite and gave them just desserts.

[Agent Z]

You also have to take into consideration that there have been different men who were Captain America over the decades. During the early 1950s' when the company was Atlas Comics there was a brief Captain America run and in one issue I found on MU he breaks up a Communist spy ring in the U.S and leaves the ringleader to die in a burning building. He appears in some revival comics as Captain America - Commie Smasher. When Marvel used the frozen in a block of ice Cap story in Avengers #4 to bring him back they eventually had to deal with Commie Smasher Cap. He was retconned into a replacement Cap recruited by the FBI.

Much later in Captain America #253, Cap did chop off the head of Baron Blood with his shield but as you know vampires never really die.

You're also ignoring my example from the Ed Brubaker run. As far as I can tell, the killing of the Communists was the only death caused by the Commie Smasher. Marvel to my knowledge has never claimed that Captain American never used lethal force.

I'd have to go back and read that myself since it's been a while for me. But from doing a little digging around I was reminded that at some point during his run Cap stepped away from the role of Captain America was replaced by John Walker, who later does go on a killing spree but this article goes into the tragic details of why Walkerton "lost it"

Walker was established to be a very troubled person from the get go in contrast to Steve. In fact, this is a recurring issue whenever someone tries to create a new Captain America in-universe; many candidates lack Steve Rogers' moral fiber and mental discipline resulting in them becoming dangerous to some degree when they get the serum.

Steve Rogers and Wonder Woman have used lethal force and remained heroes. Hell, Superman has killed people and stayed a good guy.

[Agent Z]

It's worth mentioning that during John Bryne's run, Byrne had Supes kill General Zod and his crew who were from an alternative world. They had just destroyed an entire planet and even though Supes stopped them, they were defiant and promised to escape to our world and destroy it as well. Supes exposed them to kryptonite and gave them just desserts.

That wasn't even the last time Superman killed someone. It wasn't the first either. His own creators occasionally showed him using lethal force.

[Agent Z]

Then you'll have to give more context than the pages you posted then. At no point does it appear that she is speaking metaphorically.

It's right there in the scans themselves.

Superman: He bragged about it, he said he'd do it again! He was threatening everyone we loved--

Wonder Woman: And a lobotomy was your solution?

Superman: That wasn't the intention! But we couldn't lock him up, we couldn't take the chance he'd get free again.

(note that it's Superman worried about Light getting free, not Diana)

Superman: What was I supposed to do, Diana? Take in half of the League? It was wrong, but there wasn't another option.

Wonder Woman: Yes, there was. You should have killed him.

Superman: That's not an option, it never an option--

Wonder Woman: Why? Because you think it's immoral? More immoral than destroying his mind, than murdering his identity?

Also, I don't think you're using the word "metaphorically" in the correct context here.

So what does she mean here when she says "you slay the monster" ? IMO it couldn't be more direct than that. She says that Light isn't human and this is the only way to deal with him.

Again, Diana offers this solution in response to Clark's claim that lobotomizing Light was the only way to stop him. Killing in self-defense or defense of your loved ones is a recognized right. And while there would be some coloring outside the lines if the League killed light because they thought it was the only way to stop him, it was less evil than lobotomizing him and mindwiping Batman when he tried to stop it.

[Agent Z]

But this is what happens to the John Walker Captain America in the Gruenwald run. When his parents are murdered he is "pushed over the edge" as you call it and goes on a killing spree, again citing this article since I am haven't read that run in a long time. Looks like it's one I should revisit someday.

See my response. You yourself state that it was the murder of his parents by villains that pushed him over the edge, not that he killed once and went on a killing spree.

[Agent Z]

Amazed we have got to page 4 of this topic without anyone submitting “Whatever happened to the Man of Tomorrow?” in evidence…

Well here goes!

I think Alan Moore in that great Superman story effectively gave one answer: that yes, you can write a super hero into a corner, into a situation where he has to kill.

But once that happens, the guys not a hero anymore, certainly not a super hero…that is the point of Superman’s sacrifice of his powers, Superman’s great speech (saying no one has the right to kill, especially Superman), and his retirement.

Moore was wrong.

[ed2962]

That wasn't even the last time Superman killed someone. It wasn't the first either. His own creators occasionally showed him using lethal force.

The Golden Age is a whole another can of worms ! Violence and death were almost presented as wholesome! Modern readers think of Batman having a no kill rule but there's a semi-famous cover of Bats and Robin on a desert hill with a machine gun shooting unseen enemies ( Nazis?) and they have these giant smiles on their faces. I don't have time to look for it now, but I'm sure somebody knows what I'm talking about...

[ed2962]

Moore was wrong.

I don't think that Moore was making a statement on superheroes in general, but sort of closing the door on the "innocent" Superman of the silver age. Keep in mind, Moore is the guy who had Mircale Man snap the neck of Kid Mircale Man and then kill his enemy Dr Gurgunza in a pretty graphic way.