Page 5 of 8 FirstFirst 12345678 LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 114
  1. #61
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2021
    Posts
    2,690

    Default

    I mean, the situations aren't as directly comparable as people are acting like they are. For instance, one of the most pivotal periods of mutants being hunted pre-Morrison was O:ZT....which spilled DIRECTLY out of people blaming mutants en masse for the seeming deaths of the Avengers and Fantastic Four during Onslaught. This is a situation where the non-mutant heroes were directly relevant to the escalation in attacks on mutants and Omega Sentinels first being greenlit to target mutants around the world, and while the X-Men took down Bastion right before the heroes' return (with SHIELD'S help, to be fair), like....tensions that sprang up because of O:ZT were a thing for a long time afterward. And there was no choice on editors or writers' parts to have the Avengers and FF like....make it a point to emphasize that mutants were not to blame for what happened to them and that they'd fought Onslaught side by side with the X-Men and the only reason the X-Men weren't lost WITH them was because the plot resolution was deliberately written so that mutants couldn't take part in the final deathblow against Onslaught because it'd only repower him. (Wanda was an exception because her magic kept her then-mutancy from undermining the non-mutant heroes attack on Onslaught).

    And the fact that Tony Stark and Cap both sought out mutants to support their side in the Superhero Registration conflict was kinda a key thing specifically BECAUSE the Superhero Registration Act was essentially just a derivation of the Mutant Registration Act that had been used to try and legislate against mutants as a whole in the past, as well as having been a focal point for past stories about how mutants were singled out for hate crimes by people who only found out they were mutants because of them being registered as such on file somewhere.......and the point mutant characters were making there wasn't 'oh none of us have ever done anything wrong' but rather 'bold of you to want our support in dealing with the registration act that affects all of YOU personally, when canonically you never made a peep when people wanted to register us against our will. So why's it bad when it happens to you but no big deal when people wanted to do it to us?'

    And even the thing with Genosha isn't necessarily that most characters or readers think the Avengers should have or even COULD have been on site in time to stop the massacre - after all, the X-Men didn't even get there in time - but rather its about the fact that unlike Ultron or various other man-made weapons or beings of mass destruction, Sentinels were deliberately designed and created to target a specific group/subset of people. The massacre couldn't have happened (at least not in that way) if the Sentinels DIDN'T already exist able to be hijacked and repurposed that way....and the bigger issue is that even in the wake of that, Avengers who have staunchly advocated against the building of various weapons or machines that could negatively impact the entire world never showed any concern or issues with the CONTINUED manufacture of weapons of mass destruction that again are designed to ONLY target mutants and nobody else.

    Like.....these situations are not interchangeable with 'superhero group x didn't show up to superhero group y's generic battle against a non-specific threat.'
    Last edited by BobbysWorld; 01-24-2022 at 07:42 PM.

  2. #62
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    7,421

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Outburstz View Post
    Not that I want Avengers in X stories but this is a bad argument considering Avengers are the ones who preach about saving the world. The mutants are a part of the world. The X-men while also saving the world at times as well have made it clear their priority are mutants because of the extended harsh treatment of mutants.
    I could have sworn the X-men used to be "sworn to protect a world that hates and fears them," it just seems that so many writers feel they should only worry about protecting their own kind.

    And even the thing with Genosha isn't necessarily that most characters or readers think the Avengers should have or even COULD have been on site in time to stop the massacre - after all, the X-Men didn't even get there in time - but rather its about the fact that unlike Ultron or various other man-made weapons or beings of mass destruction, Sentinels were deliberately designed and created to target a specific group/subset of people. The massacre couldn't have happened (at least not in that way) if the Sentinels DIDN'T already exist able to be hijacked and repurposed that way....and the bigger issue is that even in the wake of that, Avengers who have staunchly advocated against the building of various weapons or machines that could negatively impact the entire world never showed any concern or issues with the CONTINUED manufacture of weapons of mass destruction that again are designed to ONLY target mutants and nobody else.
    Don't act like the sentinels were just sitting in warehouse next to a big button marked "push to destroy Genosha."

    The sentinels were shut down, broke down, and abandoned in the far corner of the world and could only be activated by somebody that had no idea he could activate them, no idea where they were, and no way to get there even if he did.

    What happened to Genosha was purely the fault of Xavier evil twin alien ghost whatever she was Cassandra Nova. And if it hadn't been sentinels she sent there, she would have found something else.

    And the fact that Tony Stark and Cap both sought out mutants to support their side in the Superhero Registration conflict was kinda a key thing specifically BECAUSE the Superhero Registration Act was essentially just a derivation of the Mutant Registration Act that had been used to try and legislate against mutants as a whole in the past, as well as having been a focal point for past stories about how mutants were singled out for hate crimes by people who only found out they were mutants because of them being registered as such on file somewhere.......and the point mutant characters were making there wasn't 'oh none of us have ever done anything wrong' but rather 'bold of you to want our support in dealing with the registration act that affects all of YOU personally, when canonically you never made a peep when people wanted to register us against our will. So why's it bad when it happens to you but no big deal when people wanted to do it to us?'
    Last time "Mutant Registration" was a big thing, Mr. Fantastic basically shut it down by himself by appearing before congress and showing them WHY it wouldn't work.
    Last edited by Alan2099; 01-24-2022 at 08:01 PM.

  3. #63
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Jan 2022
    Posts
    1,295

    Default

    Welp, you know what they say about crap, when it hits the fan, everybody gets covered in it.

    Motive, or means? My, my, what a conundrum. I ask, if not Sentinels, would Nova have found another way? I'm thinking she was pretty determined.

    And I think the matter's already been settled, anyway, as many of the stalwarts involved seem to be acting like grownups again.




    I just got done skimming AvX 11 and can't imagine anybody wanting to go back to that. The concept itself, is rotten to the core and completely rancid. No good has ever come from it, and it never will.

  4. #64
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2021
    Posts
    2,690

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    I could have sworn the X-men used to be "sworn to protect a world that hates and fears them," it just seems that so many writers feel they should only worry about protecting their own kind.


    Don't act like the sentinels were just sitting in warehouse next to a big button marked "push to destroy Genosha."

    The sentinels were shut down, broke down, and abandoned in the far corner of the world and could only be activated by somebody that had no idea he could activate them, no idea where they were, and no way to get there even if he did.

    What happened to Genosha was purely the fault of Xavier evil twin alien ghost whatever she was Cassandra Nova. And if it hadn't been sentinels she sent there, she would have found something else.


    Last time "Mutant Registration" was a big thing, Mr. Fantastic basically shut it down by himself by appearing before congress and showing them WHY it wouldn't work.
    I mean, I'll give you that classic Fantastic Four actually made appearances in mutant stuff like this, which makes the current tension between the FF and mutants even crappier, but the Avengers overall, the actual inciting elements of the Superhero Registration based Civil War and the ones who actively tried to recruit mutants like the X-Men to their side? You saying its not relevant for X-Men to be like where were Tony Stark and Steve Rogers on this subject when we were the only ones whose asses were on the line?

    And sorry not sorry, but I happen to think that again, if people make weapons of mass destruction that are designed to selectively one specific minority, REGARDLESS of it they get mothballed up, the second they actually get used to wipe out 90% of that group, members of that group are justified in being like so you have opinions on how Ultron killing all people is bad, but not this, huh? Yes, Cassandra Nova pulled the trigger but bigotry still built the gun, and I don't recall any Avengers being like hey maybe we should examine the question of gun control at least in the specific context of giant weapons that only aim at specific people and just killed sixteen million of them. And its not like it could be claimed that in the wake of what happened on Genosha, it was decided to never make Sentinels again, or like it wouldn't have been at all possible for other superheroes to publicly take stances like, how can you possibly make Sentinels again after what we just saw them used to do.

    I'm just saying, Sentinels have been weaponized against mutants for decades in the comics, not just Genosha, but O:ZT, earlier in the 90s, etc, etc, and non-mutant heroes have never exactly stepped forward with a firm stance about not being any more okay with giant genocidal machines that ONLY target a minority most of them aren't part of themselves than like, they are with ones like Ultron that target living beings indiscriminately. And mutant characters aren't like, breaking the box by pointing out such discrepancies and having thoughts on them.

    To be clear, I'm not saying any of this as a reflection or judgment of the Avengers or FF because these are all just fictional characters who can only act on what their writers write them acting on, whether we feel that would be in character for them or not, I'm just saying, rightly or wrongly, Marvel has not made it a huge priority to have non-mutant heroes step in and act when its ONLY mutants who are on the line rather than humanity overall, and that's an angle that in the context of what's actually been written and new stories, like, is a relevant factor.

    And just as a reminder, I didn't post to say that the Avengers or FF suck or are terrible people, or that they're personally responsible for the various stories about mutants being hunted by Sentinels or Registration Acts, but my point SPECIFICALLY was the times when non-mutant heroes could have been presences fighting for mutants or protecting them are not interchangeable with any random superhero group just not being present for someone else's superhero battle. Writers not bringing the X-Men into a random Avenger battle with some generic menace is just not the direct equivalent of writers not having Avengers weigh in on battles or events that target mutants specifically, and I think its disingenuous to treat those things as a one to one comparison that ignores all other relevant variables. That's all.
    Last edited by BobbysWorld; 01-24-2022 at 08:23 PM.

  5. #65
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Posts
    7,144

    Default

    Deleted post

  6. #66
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Posts
    7,144

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BobbysWorld View Post
    I mean, I'll give you that classic Fantastic Four actually made appearances in mutant stuff like this, which makes the current tension between the FF and mutants even crappier, but the Avengers overall, the actual inciting elements of the Superhero Registration based Civil War and the ones who actively tried to recruit mutants like the X-Men to their side? You saying its not relevant for X-Men to be like where were Tony Stark and Steve Rogers on this subject when we were the only ones whose asses were on the line?

    And sorry not sorry, but I happen to think that again, if people make weapons of mass destruction that are designed to selectively one specific minority, REGARDLESS of it they get mothballed up, the second they actually get used to wipe out 90% of that group, members of that group are justified in being like so you have opinions on how Ultron killing all people is bad, but not this, huh? Yes, Cassandra Nova pulled the trigger but bigotry still built the gun, and I don't recall any Avengers being like hey maybe we should examine the question of gun control at least in the specific context of giant weapons that only aim at specific people and just killed sixteen million of them. I'm just saying, Sentinels have been weaponized against mutants for decades in the comics, not just Genosha, but O:ZT, earlier in the 90s, etc, etc, and non-mutant heroes have never exactly stepped forward with a stance about not being any more okay with giant genocidal machines that ONLY target a minority most of them aren't part of themselves than like, they are with ones like Ultron that target living beings indiscriminately. And mutant characters aren't like, breaking the box by pointing out such discrepancies and having thoughts on them.

    To be clear, I'm not saying any of this as a reflection or judgment of the Avengers or FF because these are all just fictional characters who can only act on what their writers write them acting on, whether we feel that would be in character for them or not, I'm just saying, rightly or wrongly, Marvel has not made it a huge priority to have non-mutant heroes step in and act when its ONLY mutants who are on the line rather than humanity overall, and that's an angle that in the context of what's actually been written and new stories, like, is a relevant factor.
    If you're blaming the action of any humans on the Avengers then the actions of any mutants lie on the head of the X-men.Specially since unlike Avengers the X-men offered those same mutants amnesty and even positions of power.

    Why are you acting like people like Gyrich who are Avenger's enemies same as the Gyrich w/ the X-men makes Avengers responsible for their action.And didn't Shaw help w/ and support sentinels? He's on the council...

    Also a lot of mutants were specifically targeting Humans, and since mutants are working w/ Cassandra Nova herself X-men seem like a hypocritical deluded group.
    Last edited by Spiderfan001; 01-24-2022 at 08:21 PM.

  7. #67
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Jan 2022
    Posts
    1,295

    Default

    I for one, will welcome the days when the MU's costumed characters come together to actually solve problems again, instead of creating and/or you know...
    perpetuating them.
    Then maybe, just maybe, the fandom(s) will follow suit, but I won't hold my breath. Just a thought, be better, life's short.

  8. #68
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
    Posts
    7,144

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PolarIceFire View Post
    I for one, will welcome the days when the MU's costumed characters come together to actually solve problems again, instead of creating and/or you know...
    perpetuating them.
    Then maybe, just maybe, the fandom(s) will follow suit, but I won't hold my breath. Just a thought, be better, life's short.
    Yes please

    They're all good people w/ similar if not the same morals at heart, disagreements are cool but I think the civil war aspect has been done to death.

    But this is written by X-writers and they character assasinate tf out of Avengers so i'm not hopeful.Specially since Gerry literally said Firestar is a cop because of the Avengers, and Gillen's work on X-men did have a semi-antagonistic Avengers

  9. #69
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2021
    Posts
    2,690

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    If you're blaming the action of any humans on the Avengers then the actions of any mutants lie on the head of the X-men.Specially since unlike Avengers the X-men offered those same mutants amnesty and even positions of power.

    Why are you acting like people like Gyrich who are Avenger's enemies same as the Gyrich w/ the X-men makes Avengers responsible for their action.And didn't Shaw help w/ and support sentinels? He's on the council...

    Also a lot of mutants were specifically targeting Humans, and since mutants are working w/ Cassandra Nova herself X-men seem like a hypocritical deluded group.
    I'm literally not though? Nowhere did I say the Avengers are RESPONSIBLE for various things done to mutants. Just that their from an in-story perspective, seeming past indifference to things targeting mutants specifically at times, is not a direct parallel to X-Men not showing up for Avenger battles against a threat to the whole world because of story logistics. And the same holds true in reverse, I'm literally fine with Avengers questioning how the X-Men can be okay with being governed by people who have attacked all of mankind before like Apocalypse, I think they SHOULD! LOL, I am one hundred percent okay with the Avengers holding the opinion that there's something fucked up about that, JUST LIKE I think mutants are valid to question whether various non-mutant heroes actually care about mutant-specific threats if the rest of the world isn't in danger. And this doesn't actually mean I think either Avengers or mutants should or do consider the other actually RESPONSIBLE for the actions of every human or mutant bad actor.

    I edited this in above but after you posted, so just to reiterate: I didn't post to say that the Avengers or FF suck or are terrible people, or that they're personally responsible for the various stories about mutants being hunted by Sentinels or Registration Acts, but my point SPECIFICALLY was the times when non-mutant heroes could have been presences fighting for mutants or protecting them are not interchangeable with any random superhero group just not being present for someone else's superhero battle. Writers not bringing the X-Men into a random Avenger battle with some generic menace that's a threat to the whole world is just not the direct equivalent of writers not having Avengers weigh in on battles or events that target mutants specifically, and I think its disingenuous to treat those things as a one to one comparison that ignores all other relevant variables. That's all.
    Last edited by BobbysWorld; 01-24-2022 at 08:32 PM.

  10. #70
    Mighty Member Brian B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    1,789

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    Still not seeing what any of that has to do with where were they. A major event happened in the shared universe in marvel and they didn't show up, it is what it is. also they could start in New york if they are looking for criminal politicians where wilson fisk is mayor.
    The X-Men didn’t show up, either. Cyclops and Wolverine did. Where were the X-Men? It’s a stupid question from Emma.

  11. #71
    Mighty Member Brian B's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    1,789

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    There is a legitimate philosophical debate on that score given who developed the technology and built the weapons.

    The Wild Sentinels were A.I. controlled, self-replicating robots. Humanity didn’t really cause them at that point. At their origination, the mutant children of Bolivar Trask helped inspire their creation. At one point his mutant son unleashed a particularly nasty model. Even then, mutants or their families cause their own world as much damage as plain old humans. That’s where the metaphor in the story kind of breaks down, IMO.

  12. #72
    Astonishing Member gonnagiveittoya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2020
    Posts
    3,740

    Default

    I'm trying to figure out what radical event could happen in a FCBD issue

  13. #73
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Jan 2022
    Posts
    1,295

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfan001 View Post
    Yes please

    They're all good people w/ similar if not the same morals at heart, disagreements are cool but I think the civil war aspect has been done to death.

    But this is written by X-writers and they character assasinate tf out of Avengers so i'm not hopeful.Specially since Gerry literally said Firestar is a cop because of the Avengers, and Gillen's work on X-men did have a semi-antagonistic Avengers
    Duggan handled them fine, I thought, during the Gala. Steve in particular, I noticed. In fact, they all seem to favor him, as Williams was also more partial to him in ToM. And can't say I blame them, 'cause he's my favorite, too. Him, Wanda, and Thor probably, off the top of my head.

    With the Firestar is a "cop" thing, I'm pretty sure that was meant to provoke, which it did. Gerry likes to poke the bear that is comics fandom, it's his thing. He seems to take great pleasure in it, I think. It was meant to incite and get fans engaged, and it might've actually help send Miss Angelica Jones straight to the top, for the win. Who's to say if that wasn't actually his intention, or not? I personally wish he'd let up a little, but he's not about to listen to me. In fact, if he reads this (he comes on here sometimes, I've seen you, G), it'll probably just encourage him to double down. He's a real ballbuster like that, for sure, I can tell.

    I can't speak on Gillen yet, though. I'm not familiar with any of his work, Immortal will be my first. But I'm fascinated by Selene, so am looking greatly forward to it. She's the major selling point, for me. If done right, she'll be grinding Doom & Thanos' testicles under her stilettos in no time flat, and they'll be thanking her for it.
    Last edited by PolarIceFire; 01-24-2022 at 09:33 PM.

  14. #74
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Jan 2022
    Posts
    1,295

    Default

    On the heroes helping heroes or not thing, sure they do, when there's a crossover event or something. Otherwise, they stay in their own lanes, self-contained. This is particularly true of the X-line, whose narrative has a well-documented history of being the most isolated of the bunch. And willfully so, I might add. Why have all the various "X-offices" over the years failed to include non-mutant characters from its fellow in-house IP's, standing up for & with the X-Men, in their stories? And why have non-X-books shown their characters knowingly and unequivocally just not caring about mutant affairs, when given all these opportunities? Were they just too busy with their own problems to care, were they even aware? These are all good questions, BUT... we know the answers why, don't we?

  15. #75
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2021
    Posts
    2,405

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Outburstz View Post
    Unless Thanos has killed humans Krakoa will have to have Thanos' back since he is a mutant. Then when it's clear his intention are to kill a bunch of people they will switch sides and help take him down.
    I was joking with the entire Thanos is a mutant bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Isn't the Duggan the one who harped on Firestar being a "cop" because she was an Avenger?
    Baby steps. I'll take what I can get. And I'm hoping he was joking with that comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    The Wild Sentinels were A.I. controlled, self-replicating robots. Humanity didn’t really cause them at that point. At their origination, the mutant children of Bolivar Trask helped inspire their creation. At one point his mutant son unleashed a particularly nasty model. Even then, mutants or their families cause their own world as much damage as plain old humans. That’s where the metaphor in the story kind of breaks down, IMO.
    This. Thank you. Hell, it broke when they accidentally made it the great replacement. Or that they have someone who appropriated Mutant identity on the council (Why is it always fucking Sinister?!)
    Last edited by Saithor; 01-24-2022 at 10:22 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •