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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbysWorld View Post
    I'm literally not though? Nowhere did I say the Avengers are RESPONSIBLE for various things done to mutants. Just that their from an in-story perspective, seeming past indifference to things targeting mutants specifically at times, is not a direct parallel to X-Men not showing up for Avenger battles against a threat to the whole world because of story logistics. And the same holds true in reverse, I'm literally fine with Avengers questioning how the X-Men can be okay with being governed by people who have attacked all of mankind before like Apocalypse, I think they SHOULD! LOL, I am one hundred percent okay with the Avengers holding the opinion that there's something fucked up about that, JUST LIKE I think mutants are valid to question whether various non-mutant heroes actually care about mutant-specific threats if the rest of the world isn't in danger. And this doesn't actually mean I think either Avengers or mutants should or do consider the other actually RESPONSIBLE for the actions of every human or mutant bad actor.

    I edited this in above but after you posted, so just to reiterate: I didn't post to say that the Avengers or FF suck or are terrible people, or that they're personally responsible for the various stories about mutants being hunted by Sentinels or Registration Acts, but my point SPECIFICALLY was the times when non-mutant heroes could have been presences fighting for mutants or protecting them are not interchangeable with any random superhero group just not being present for someone else's superhero battle. Writers not bringing the X-Men into a random Avenger battle with some generic menace that's a threat to the whole world is just not the direct equivalent of writers not having Avengers weigh in on battles or events that target mutants specifically, and I think its disingenuous to treat those things as a one to one comparison that ignores all other relevant variables. That's all.
    I... a threat to the entire world is greater than one to a specific group.They don't help each other because they are all busy handling their own stuff, if anything Emma was sipping martini's when entire cities were being razed.Also X-men keep saying they protect a world that hates and fears them so they don't only protect mutants.

    Also Spider-man has been targeted to the point of having Spider-slayers which are like sentinels but specifically for him, and neither Avengers nor X-men ever helped him out w/ those.Should he be going on rants w/ how terrible they are to not help w/ all that death and destruction caused because he didn't have help and that they have smth against him specifically.X-men didn't even help when he was being targeted by Juggernaut, even recently.

    Your point of "X-men thinking whether non-mutant heroes care about mutant issues" is a valid one, if we hadn't had said heroes help the x-men out w/ sentinels or other mutant only issues w/ no benefit for themselves.





    Yeah this guy is anti-mutant and doesn't care about their survival...

    Quote Originally Posted by PolarIceFire View Post
    Duggan handled them fine, I thought, during the Gala. Steve in particular, I noticed. In fact, they all seem to favor him, as Williams was also more partial to him in ToM. And can't say I blame them, 'cause he's my favorite, too. Him, Wanda, and Thor probably, off the top of my head.

    With the Firestar is a "cop" thing, I'm pretty sure that was meant to provoke, which it did. Gerry likes to poke the bear that is comics fandom, it's his thing. He seems to take great pleasure in it, I think. It was meant to incite and get fans engaged, and it might've actually help send Miss Angelica Jones straight to the top, for the win. Who's to say if that wasn't actually his intention, or not? I personally wish he'd let up a little, but he's not about to listen to me. In fact, if he reads this (he comes on here sometimes, I've seen you, G), it'll probably just encourage him to double down. He's a real ballbuster like that, for sure, I can tell.

    I can't speak on Gillen yet, though. I'm not familiar with any of his work, Immortal will be my first. But I'm fascinated by Selene, so am looking greatly forward to it. She's the major selling point, for me. If done right, she'll be grinding Doom & Thanos' testicles under her stilettos in no time flat, and they'll be thanking her for it.
    Agreed on all this

    Gillen is a great writer and his X stuff was fantastic btw

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outburstz View Post
    Just because some of them are friends doesn't mean they are going to comprise their priorities for the other. It absolutely can be a conflict of interest
    How is it compromising their priorities? Marvel has to create cheap, fake drama in order for them to have conflict.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by PolarIceFire View Post
    I for one, will welcome the days when the MU's costumed characters come together to actually solve problems again, instead of creating and/or you know...
    perpetuating them.
    Then maybe, just maybe, the fandom(s) will follow suit, but I won't hold my breath. Just a thought, be better, life's short.
    Totally agree with this.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    How is it compromising their priorities? Marvel has to create cheap, fake drama in order for them to have conflict.
    China has developed a technology that can see if the baby a woman is carrying has the X gene. If an X gene is detected the pregnancy is stopped, because the X gene is viewed as a virus.

    Mutants get wind of it and find such technology and insult, so they move in to stop China even though China has both the mandate and authority to do both in its boarders. They could wipe the memory of the creator but there is a chance others may stumble onto the same technology. Mutants have made the choice to stop them at any cost.

    What do the Avengers do?

  5. #80

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    If Kieron Gillen is writing it, I'm generally encouraged. He's one of those writers who rarely lets style make up for a lack of substance. But I also haven't forgotten how disappointing Avengers vs. X-Men was. And if Marvel really wants to try Avengers vs. X-Men 2, then I think that would be a tough sell. I don't think it would be impossible to pull off. It would just be an uphill battle, to say the least.
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  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outburstz View Post
    China has developed a technology that can see if the baby a woman is carrying has the X gene. If an X gene is detected the pregnancy is stopped, because the X gene is viewed as a virus.

    Mutants get wind of it and find such technology and insult, so they move in to stop China even though China has both the mandate and authority to do both in its boarders. They could wipe the memory of the creator but there is a chance others may stumble onto the same technology. Mutants have made the choice to stop them at any cost.

    What do the Avengers do?
    Help the X-Men. The Avengers have entered Latveria, Russia and even other alien civilizations without any kind of permission.

    They would also likely try to solve the situation without any killing anyone as I'm sure the X-Men would do.

  7. #82
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    Didn't the Avengers just get done getting in a tussle with Russia as well? I'm not sure that the argument that they have to respect the soveirgnty of foreign nations has ever been consistent outside the few times writers specifically brought it up as a plot point.

  8. #83
    Ultimate Member Gray Lensman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarvelMaster616 View Post
    If Kieron Gillen is writing it, I'm generally encouraged. He's one of those writers who rarely lets style make up for a lack of substance. But I also haven't forgotten how disappointing Avengers vs. X-Men was. And if Marvel really wants to try Avengers vs. X-Men 2, then I think that would be a tough sell. I don't think it would be impossible to pull off. It would just be an uphill battle, to say the least.
    Gillen did write the only parts of AvX that were actually good, so there is that. But is he good enough to overcome stupid editorial tricks? There lies the rub.
    Dark does not mean deep.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    Gillen did write the only parts of AvX that were actually good, so there is that. But is he good enough to overcome stupid editorial tricks? There lies the rub.
    I mean with the movie rights back we should hopefully not have editorial mandates to enforce the entire conflict..then again these are the people who gave us Civil War 2

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saithor View Post
    I mean with the movie rights back we should hopefully not have editorial mandates to enforce the entire conflict..then again these are the people who gave us Civil War 2
    Plus we can see how well the X-Men are being treated in the Death of Dr. Strange series. Is anyone costumed but without an X-Gene getting possessed?
    Dark does not mean deep.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Lensman View Post
    Plus we can see how well the X-Men are being treated in the Death of Dr. Strange series. Is anyone costumed but without an X-Gene getting possessed?
    Considering the writer for that one I don't think we blame that on the rest of Marvel not wanting to deal with mutants. Also didn't that tie-in end with it being revealed that the new Black Knight is also a mutant?

    I got no idea if other heroes were possessed, I only have also read the Strange Academy one as well

  12. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grunty View Post
    Which is one reason why i dislike that the editors at the time allowed Morrison to casualy destroy Genosha with so little build up and overall impact on the Marvel Universe. Imagine the same happening with Wakanda these days.

    Or in real life Sri Lanka being eradicated by a giant killer robot and everyone in the world, including India would just shrug it off or not even bothering to aknowledge that it ever happend. With only people of sinhales diaspora ever bringing it up, while everyone else is always acting defensive about why they weren't there to prevent it.
    It's a problem yes, but a bit more realistic in the Marvel universe where aliens attack every other week. What is not realistic (I am looking at you editors) is when certain characters that were ground zero for genocidal horror forget about it soon after.

    On a side note.
    Is it just me or is the large number of unpowered humans who died on Genosha constantly glossed over? As far as i recall it wasn't a 1% ruling over 99% of the population deal or even 10% to 90% (ala Apartheid in South Africa), but more like 20-30% of the population being unpowered humans compared to the citizen who got forced to become mutates, artifical made mutates and mutants abducted to and enslaved on Genosha prior to the fall of the Magistrates.
    So if 16 million victims refers to the number of human loss overall (not just mutants), it would put the number of unpowered human victims at around 4-5 million. Hardly a number to ignore in all the "race" rethoric thrown around in the X-men titles.
    During Genosha's war with Wakanda in Eve of Destruction they were caught in the middle and Lorna negotiated most of their exit to Wakanda.



    But, yes humans were a major player on Genosha even during the mutant rule period. When Eve of Destruction happened the bullpen as it was called back then was already plotting the destruction of the island and they were conveniently moved off right before the hammer fell on the island.
    Last edited by jmc247; 01-25-2022 at 08:35 AM.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    It's a problem yes, but a bit more realistic in the Marvel universe where aliens attack every other week. What is not realistic (I am looking at you editors) is when certain characters that were ground zero for genocidal horror forget about it soon after.
    Indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by jmc247 View Post
    During Genosha's war with Wakanda in Eve of Destruction they were caught in the middle and Lorna negotiated most of their exit to Wakanda.

    *pic*

    But, yes humans were a major player on Genosha even during the mutant rule period. When Eve of Destruction happened the bullpen as it was called back then was already plotting the destruction of the island and they were conveniently moved off right before the hammer fell on the island.
    I see. Thanks for clearing that up. I was under the impression, there was still a major unpowered minority left on Genosha even after Eve of Destruction .

    Also if that behind the scenes planning is true, it sours my opinion on the destruction of Genosha even more, since it means the X-office at the time created specific in universe events just so there couldn't be a shared tragedy between both sides of the X-gene divide.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saithor View Post
    I’m not usually a fan of Duggan but he’s at least shown in X-men he won’t do the “The avengers are evil!” Routine for cheap drama, and I trust Gillen, so hopefully this does not go poorly.
    Counterpoint for Duggan: the existence X-Men Green

    Gillen at least makes me confident it won’t end up with Beast and/or Brand making the surviving Avengers kneel in front of a shallow ditch

  15. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    Drastically alters? So it will be an improvement?
    I wonder if it ties in with the Eternals crossover event. The reason that it changes everything is that the X-men and Avengers form a united front to prevent the world from falling to the judgement of the Celestials. It changes public sentiment toward mutants because the mutants really show themselves as heroes saving the world when they help the Avengers stand against the Celestials.
    We are MUTANT..Krakoa, FOREVER!!! “Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité”

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