The problems with the ''mutant metaphor''

[Doom'nGloom]

Metaphor is part of the X-men mythos but if x-men=metaphor then how the hell does Mojo fit into that? Besides it's never been a 1 to 1 correspondence. X-men represents real life minorities as much as Spider-man represent the average Joe on the street. Not every teenager/young adult have the looks, smarts, charm and sense of humor of Peter Parker. At the end of the day these are stories with people in colorful costumes punching bad guys. That doesn't mean they can't tell meaningful stories with parallels to real life. But it means it's probably best not to think of them as a literal mirror to real life and that's usually on readers not the books. Or in rare cases you get Kitty with her n-word moments which are on Claremont.

[Saithor]

I've been on this thread long enough to know that no matter how many times people debunk and explain the flaw in these talking points against the mutant metaphor it's not going to change your mind. So just let it go.


Mutants are a hated minority in the comics and people like that. That isn't changing either keep reading or not but it isn't changing.

One could at least hope after decades of hate we could get some form of integration, but Marvel loves it's status quo to stay the same it seems.

[Saithor]

Demographics change that's part of life and racist-fear mongering is hardly what I think should be paid attention to in terms of ethnic or cultural make-up changes.

Sure the marvel government tends to be incompetent but it does work out in some realities, so I don't think that means we should give up hope on that lol.

Okay, but again, no actual real life outbreeding event is going to happen. Thing like the E-gene don't exist in real life. I think we might just have to agree to disagree on this, but I personally find it disturbing that Marvel has decided that the mutant metaphor needs to start with assuming that the extremely unrealistic and impossible core conceit of a racist conspiracy theory is actually true, and then reinforce it with things like the E-gene and Mothervine.

[ChronoRogue]

Okay, but again, no actual real life outbreeding event is going to happen. Thing like the E-gene don't exist in real life. I think we might just have to agree to disagree on this, but I personally find it disturbing that Marvel has decided that the mutant metaphor needs to start with assuming that the extremely unrealistic and impossible core conceit of a racist conspiracy theory is actually true, and then reinforce it with things like the E-gene and Mothervine.

Technically it's already happened with various species of hominids like the neanderthals...

Again it's an irrational fear, mutants and humans are so indistinguishable that beings based on logic like robots consider them the same. The narrative isn't highlighting actual biological differences, as much as perceived one's.

(especially since, even if you moved every current mutant into space/alternate realities/whatever, humans would still be having mutant babies)

[Saithor]

Technically it's already happened with various species of hominids like the neanderthals...

Again it's an irrational fear, mutants and humans are so indistinguishable that beings based on logic like robots consider them the same. The narrative isn't highlighting actual biological differences, as much as perceived one's.

(especially since, even if you moved every current mutant into space/alternate realities/whatever, humans would still be having mutant babies)

I thought recent scientific study found out that Neandrathal’s were less bred out and more just combined with other evolutionary strains to create the modern human.

Again, I just find the idea that the mutant metaphor relies on buying into that specific basis of a conspiracy theory while trying to be a metaphor for actual minorities that face that exact conspiracy theory except it is not true in their case (Demogrpahics changes are happening, but African Americans aren’t going to become 100% of the American populace in…3,5 generations? How many generations was it supposed to be till the E-gene kicked in?).

[CrimsonEchidna]

It has the same issues a lot of fantasy racial allegories fall into; they borrow a lot of the imagery and overt elements of bigotry while leaving out factors like institutionalized racism.

[Saithor]

It has the same issues a lot of fantasy racial allegories fall into; they borrow a lot of the imagery and overt elements of bigotry while leaving out factors like institutionalized racism.

I’d say it also ignores intersectionality, but they’ve started addressing the again, at least Ewing was over in SWORD. Hopefully it continues and we can end the meme of “Mutant identity overpowers all”

[ChronoRogue]

I thought recent scientific study found out that Neandrathal’s were less bred out and more just combined with other evolutionary strains to create the modern human.

Again, I just find the idea that the mutant metaphor relies on buying into that specific basis of a conspiracy theory while trying to be a metaphor for actual minorities that face that exact conspiracy theory except it is not true in their case (Demogrpahics changes are happening, but African Americans aren’t going to become 100% of the American populace in…3,5 generations? How many generations was it supposed to be till the E-gene kicked in?).

I don't think I've heard of the theory of neanderthals being direct ancestors to modern humans. I know lots of us have small parts of them in our DNA, but directly connected to them? Again, not sure.

I don't think any of the creatives are drawing upon the Motherverine or the E-gene plot in the House of X era and I don't think either really drive the narrative for the mythology of how mutants will eventually overtake humans. It's supposed to be a "natural" evolution. My impression is as with most non-violent demographic changes, it'd would be slow and gradual over many generations (maybe even centuries) not only a few.

[bat39]

While I agree that the metaphor can definitely still be used, I don't think the idea that those two points are playing with irrational fears of minorities works in this case because in the real world these fears are just that, irrational and based around conspiracy theories and things that are definitively not true, while in the comics these are scientifically proven facts that could easily come to pass. In the case of mutants, the comics are asking that we take these two things as real inside the world of the comics, which makes addressing the irrationality of what drives those beliefs in the real world much harder to address.

I think you've explained what I was saying far more eloquently than I did

I think it's perfectly fine that mutants are meant to theoretically be the ''next stage in human evolution'' who could replace ordinary humans in a few generations (or a few dozen generations or whatever), while currently being a minority group facing hatred and prejudice from the human population. That's the conceit of the franchise. But if I accept that this conceit, then I have to admit that the latter point about being a minority facing hatred and prejudice does not work as a perfect metaphor for real-world hatred and prejudice faced by minority and oppressed groups.

Metaphor is part of the X-men mythos but if x-men=metaphor then how the hell does Mojo fit into that? Besides it's never been a 1 to 1 correspondence. X-men represents real life minorities as much as Spider-man represent the average Joe on the street. Not every teenager/young adult have the looks, smarts, charm and sense of humor of Peter Parker. At the end of the day these are stories with people in colorful costumes punching bad guys. That doesn't mean they can't tell meaningful stories with parallels to real life. But it means it's probably best not to think of them as a literal mirror to real life and that's usually on readers not the books. Or in rare cases you get Kitty with her n-word moments which are on Claremont.

Or the time when Alex said he didn't want to be known as a ''mutant'' but just as ''Alex''

This kind of thing happens when writers themselves take the metaphor too literally, and unfortunately, it somewhat legitimizes the viewpoint among readers/fans that the franchise is first and foremost about the metaphor.

Technically it's already happened with various species of hominids like the neanderthals...

Again it's an irrational fear, mutants and humans are so indistinguishable that beings based on logic like robots consider them the same. The narrative isn't highlighting actual biological differences, as much as perceived one's.

(especially since, even if you moved every current mutant into space/alternate realities/whatever, humans would still be having mutant babies)

If the relationship between humans and mutants is akin to that between the Neandrathal and humans, then the fear of humans towards mutants is not irrational but based in scientific fact. The biological differences between humans and mutants are a reality as well, even if mutants are technically members of the same species as humans with a slightly different (evolved?) genetic makeup. And if the biological difference is not different skin colors, which does not inherently threaten anyone, but something that allows a person to fire energy beams that could seriously injure or even kill another person who has no such abilities, then the most rational thing to do would be to be afraid about this situation.

[Omega Alpha]

I think you left out one thing.

Mutants asking "who do people hate us?" when you have people like Magneto appearing on TV attacking military bases and ranting about how they're superior and how mutants will one day crush humanity under their heels.

So, you're saying Muslims had no right to ask why people hate them when Bin Laden was appearing on TV commanding terrorists into throwing airplanes at buildings and blow themselves up, even if they were fighting Al-Qaeda or just minding their own business?

The fact that the X-men support Magneto (or vice versa) these days only makes that worse.

While that is clearly true, one also has to keep in mind that almost everyone in comics, hero or villain, should have been in jail for life long ago. The amount of reckless destruction and collateral damage, human or not, is staggering.

[Saithor]

So, you're saying Muslims had no right to ask why people hate them when Bin Laden was appearing on TV commanding terrorists into throwing airplanes at buildings and blow themselves up, even if they were fighting Al-Qaeda or just minding their own business?



While that is clearly true, one also has to keep in mind that almost everyone in comics, hero or villain, should have been in jail for life long ago. The amount of reckless destruction and collateral damage, human or not, is staggering.

I hate to repeat myself, but going back to one of my earlier posts, most Muslims also didn’t want to join a country with Osama Bin Laden as one of its leaders. Now as is, I don’t mind Magneto since his redemption has been a long run thing that I think was mostly pulled off well. Apocalypse on the other hand…

[bat39]

So, you're saying Muslims had no right to ask why people hate them when Bin Laden was appearing on TV commanding terrorists into throwing airplanes at buildings and blow themselves up, even if they were fighting Al-Qaeda or just minding their own business?

Interesting that you should bring this up. I've heard the argument that the plight of mutants is comparable to that of Muslims in the Western world post-9/11 before.

Again, the argument I made in my original post applies. A Muslim is just another human being who practises a particular religion. He or she is not inherently dangerous to their fellow human beings, unless of course they are radical extemists/terrorists actively seeking to maim and kill others.

A mutant is not just another human being, and could be inherently dangerous to fellow human beings even if they are not radical extremists/terrorists and have no intentions of doing anyone any harm.

Moving beyond that, barring some kind of mass-migration event accompanied by a decimation of the existing population of the Western world, we're never going to have a situation where Muslims, or any other minority group, is going to be able to wholesale 'replace' the existing population of the Western world, and an ordinary Muslim citizen who is not a member of a radical group or terror organization is never going to endorse such a 'replacement'. Whereas mutants scientifically have the potential to 'replace' the existing population of the world (i.e. normal human) and it might indeed be their evolutionary destiny - a viewpoint which is endorsed not just by radical/terrorist elements in the mutant community but also by people and groups who simultaneously advocate for peaceful co-existence.

(This is of course ignoring the fact that Islam is a religion and a belief system, not something based even remotely in biology, so the comparision to mutants actually becomes even more tenuous than in the case of, say, the comparision of racial minorities to mutants).

Ultimately, this proves my point. At a superficial level the parallel you were drawing makes sense, and you can tell an interesting story with it. But if you actually sit to examine it, the parallel does begin to fall apart.

[ChronoRogue]

If the relationship between humans and mutants is akin to that between the Neandrathal and humans, then the fear of humans towards mutants is not irrational but based in scientific fact. The biological differences between humans and mutants are a reality as well, even if mutants are technically members of the same species as humans with a slightly different (evolved?) genetic makeup. And if the biological difference is not different skin colors, which does not inherently threaten anyone, but something that allows a person to fire energy beams that could seriously injure or even kill another person who has no such abilities, then the most rational thing to do would be to be afraid about this situation.

No, it's still irrational because it's assuming that same type of conflict would occur between two species that are in widely different circumstances in terms of communication, society and resources.

Prehistoric humans were barely developing basic societal concepts let alone everything else associated with modern communication and scientific learning.

As for powers, yes they are scary, but that's the issue of trying apply superhero logic to the real world. Again, it's not just mutants who have powers MU and it's not the main reason the citizens discriminate against mutants (at least, narratively).

[Saithor]

Honestly I think the man takeaway here should be the metaphor is still very valid in broad strokes, but when you focus in on the details of it, the baggage of being a superhero comic, of being part of a wider superhero universe, and sixty years of continuity with various effects especially in light of changing social trends can reflect badly on it.

Like, just grabbing something from this era, Sinister. I get no one trusts him in Krakoa, but this is a man who is not a mutant who used genetics to turn himself into a mutant and is currently one of the leaders of a nation of mutants. Unless this is some kind of snide commentary on CB Cebulski I'm not sure what that plot point adds.

[Rift]

Metaphor is part of the X-men mythos but if x-men=metaphor then how the hell does Mojo fit into that?

He represents Tumblr.