The problems with the ''mutant metaphor''

[Saithor]

I'm sure some people are going to be pissed off by me putting this here, but
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[LordUltimus]

I'm sure some people are going to be pissed off by me putting this here, but
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Yeah, how dare you put in one of those filthy robots in here!

[SiycoBatSquirrel]

I'm sure some people are going to be pissed off by me putting this here, but
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Thank you, LordUltimus, for posting these examples and bringing references unknowingly to clarify as to why I believe that establishing mutant sovereignty and trying to achieve co-existence with 'humans' at the same time is laughable with the common attitude that the majority of the mutants seem to express without even thinking about how it is going to presented to the outside world. Resurrection protocols have completely removed mutants from relatability, empathy and common ground with the outside world despite the fact that they are no more than super-powered humans themselves. Its fully in character of the Brotherhood to have this supremacist attitude because at its core, they believe to be above humanity but this...this is systemic and does nothing for them on a societal level. In order for mutants to thrive in the world, they have to be a part of society where all people are equal. What real good is it doing for the mutants to remove themselves from humanity yet trying to influence and assist it? That is too much like having your cake and eating it. This is a significant issue that has to be challenged seriously and put to a test. The mutants need to figure out whether they want to be a part of humanity or be like the Inhumans and practice isolationism. They cannot have it both ways.

[Saithor]

Thank you, LordUltimus, for posting these examples and bringing references unknowingly to clarify as to why I believe that establishing mutant sovereignty and trying to achieve co-existence with 'humans' at the same time is laughable with the common attitude that the majority of the mutants seem to express without even thinking about how it is going to presented to the outside world. Resurrection protocols have completely removed mutants from relatability, empathy and common ground with the outside world despite the fact that they are no more than super-powered humans themselves. Its fully in character of the Brotherhood to have this supremacist attitude because at its core, they believe to be above humanity but this...this is systemic and does nothing for them on a societal level. In order for mutants to thrive in the world, they have to be a part of society where all people are equal. What real good is it doing for the mutants to remove themselves from humanity yet trying to influence and assist it? That is too much like having your cake and eating it. This is a significant issue that has to be challenged seriously and put to a test. The mutants need to figure out whether they want to be a part of humanity or be like the Inhumans and practice isolationism. They cannot have it both ways.

Okay, okay, hol' up. I disagree that the resurrection protocols will cause feelings of alienation, they have not been around nearly long enough to warp a society to such an extent that this happens so fast. This was even pointed out in Way of X where it was explicitly stated that the only reason things were progressing so fast was the fact that Onslaught was specifically trying to accelerate that natural trend to drive society to ruin in a matter of years instead of multiple generations. You will need a new, prominient generation growing up knowing nothing but the protocols for attitudes like that to become entrenched.

[SiycoBatSquirrel]

Okay, okay, hol' up. I disagree that the resurrection protocols will cause feelings of alienation, they have not been around nearly long enough to warp a society to such an extent that this happens so fast. This was even pointed out in Way of X where it was explicitly stated that the only reason things were progressing so fast was the fact that Onslaught was specifically trying to accelerate that natural trend to drive society to ruin in a matter of years instead of multiple generations. You will need a new, prominient generation growing up knowing nothing but the protocols for attitudes like that to become entrenched.

But its already happening in the X comics with Krakoa establishing industries to dominate the tech and medical field to the extent that the whole planet has no choice but to buy and how Way of X also presented how the new mutant society has re-thought on the views of life and death in general and it has since cause the whole population to adopt this new attitude as long as they stayed relatively immortal and it doesn't need a new one to come to the simple and fast embraced realization that "Since I can no longer die, why call myself human?" It was even embraced quickly by Synch in his own near-monologue issue of a title I've forgotten about how he would live for his loved, rather than die for his loved ones in times of extreme crisis as a rebuttal towards his own father's views of how far he would go for his loved ones. All Onslaught is doing is giving a push to what is already rapidly evolving into a society of immortal gods in one generation and if we're talking a new generation growing up blessed with immortality, its not gonna be that far-off for the follow-up debate to question the need of reproducing if they are already effectively immortal and if they need to retire the rule of "Make more mutants" when Wanda brought into the queue of 20 million mutants that already existed in different realities in line to be reborn. That is how far removed they've made of themselves in a sort amount of time.

[rcaguy]

Yeah, how dare you put in one of those filthy robots in here!

Yeah,especially one that was created by those even filthier Avengers.....

[BroHomo]

Way to miss the point entirely. Again. Dani. New Mutants #1. Character who has always been proud of her Native heritage is suddenly talking about how much better Mutant ideals and ideologies are than human ones because they'll actually lead to a better and more stable society? Do you not get how dumb it is to have a native american character saying what is a literal right wing talking point about actual native american culture? How stupid it is to say things that apply to actual real world minorities in the story?
And I can already hear your counter-rebuttal "Oh, she didn't mean native american specifically, she just meant human society in general". Guess what, that still includes native american cultures,

Yeeeah I guess that's one way to interpret what she said. Buuut it'll be weird her praising the society she grew up in...which was really outside and separate from 'human society'

and it's not some statement of "Society on Krakoa is better for mutants specifically" It's "Krakoan society is better than all human ones"

Better for Mutants Yeah!!
.

on purpose![/B]) essentially gets told they're just being a bigot.

I meean you should feel free to state your criticism but shouldn't be surprised to look Sus after declaring Mutants as racist supremists for finally getting off from under humanitys yoke

It does negate when said sovereign nation as well as its own leaders and society refuses to acknowledge its own supremacist, god-complex ideology that they preach inside and outside their house that contradicts as well as conflicts with co-existing with those that are literally the non-super-powered version of themselves, regardless of genetics. Showing a few mutants in books that don't think that way is not gonna make the issue go away.

I mean it's been working in America for a few hundred years

Yeah, it's not as if mutants don't describe anything they don't like to be "human" and thus something they're "above".

Yes like I've posted early every community takes words describing or attributed to communities outside themselves to use derisively...I can prob make a list of a few examples if I have to

I'm sure some people are going to be pissed off by me putting this here, but
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who would get mad?

[LordUltimus]

Didn't Hickman say in that final podcast that one of his goals was to make mutants feel strange and alienating to the reader?

And yet somehow still bright and hopeful?

That's like trying to make a trifle with beef - it just ends up tasting like feet.

[LordUltimus]

I mean it's been working in America for a few hundred years

Ah so you want Krakoa to act like America, okay.

And last I checked America had movements like Occupy Wall Street and BLM. Where are the Krakoan protesters demanding Krakoa institute democracy?

Yes like I've posted early every community takes words describing or attributed to communities outside themselves to use derisively...I can prob make a list of a few examples if I have to

Yeah, but they don't declare that one day they'll replace them all and that they are inferior to you.

[SiycoBatSquirrel]

Didn't Hickman say in that final podcast that one of his goals was to make mutants feel strange and alienating to the reader?

And yet somehow still bright and hopeful?

That's like trying to make a trifle with beef - it just ends up tasting like feet.

Well Hickman that one of those points right but bright and hopeful?

More LGBT rep can only do so much for watching this growing forest fire.

[Kingdom X]

Didn't Hickman say in that final podcast that one of his goals was to make mutants feel strange and alienating to the reader?

And yet somehow still bright and hopeful?

That's like trying to make a trifle with beef - it just ends up tasting like feet.

Actually it's not that hard.

Violent Crucible = strange and alienating.

Seeing everybody celebrate during that last issue of HOX without fear of extinction = hopeful.

The only people who still have an issue are the ones who can't acknowledge that there are good and bad aspects of Krakoa. For example, I will always have problems with Sinister being on the council considering his history and previous violence towards mutants. Thing is I don't post about it like it's breaking news almost 3 years into the status quo.

Every thread just ends up being "Krakoa bad!" "All mutants are hateful supremacists." This thread was supposed to be about the metaphor that this franchise has had for almost 50 years, but it always ends up being the same thing. Aren't y'all tired?

[Covetous_One]

Actually it's not that hard.

Violent Crucible = strange and alienating.

Seeing everybody celebrate during that last issue of HOX without fear of extinction = hopeful.

The only people who still have an issue are the ones who can't acknowledge that there are good and bad aspects of Krakoa. For example, I will always have problems with Sinister being on the council considering his history and previous violence towards mutants. Thing is I don't post about it like it's breaking news almost 3 years into the status quo.

Every thread just ends up being "Krakoa bad!" "All mutants are hateful supremacists." This thread was supposed to be about the metaphor that this franchise has had for almost 50 years, but it always ends up being the same thing. Aren't y'all tired?

Both can end up bleeding into each other. Saying how certain parts of Krakoa society is bad just pokes holes in the original metaphor when you have characters also using pejorative terms that encompasses all humans as a monolith of oppression when it’s just been a few who are in power doing it. Now saying the same things that have already been established I can agree is tiresome and new examples should be put forth. Though past writings still make for good examples when not referred to repeatedly but in moderation. Now Krakoa is good in that it offers a wide range of stories and mutants have their own nation that interacts and helps humans.

[SiycoBatSquirrel]

Actually it's not that hard.

Violent Crucible = strange and alienating.

Seeing everybody celebrate during that last issue of HOX without fear of extinction = hopeful.

The only people who still have an issue are the ones who can't acknowledge that there are good and bad aspects of Krakoa. For example, I will always have problems with Sinister being on the council considering his history and previous violence towards mutants. Thing is I don't post about it like it's breaking news almost 3 years into the status quo.

Every thread just ends up being "Krakoa bad!" "All mutants are hateful supremacists." This thread was supposed to be about the metaphor that this franchise has had for almost 50 years, but it always ends up being the same thing. Aren't y'all tired?

It's not just the Crucible though. Its absolutely everything about Krakoa and its growing mindset that is strange and alienating not just to the characters but to the readers as well. You wanna see something beneficial about this new one cause this makes you uncomfortable than fine.

I can name a few accomplishments on top of my head. They are captains of industry on the likes of Big Tech and Big Pharma, they've established a superhero team, intelligence agency, government, country-hood, with its selling points of free lifecare, housing, food, security, schooling and no job requirements in due to my knowledge, about a year. Its form of currency is basely run on Krakoa taking a piece of life energy from you once a year which requires no consequence since you are basically ageless and disease-free due to mass-produced free-for-all resurrection with the exceptions (or not) of clones. The Hellfire Trading Company is the sole shipper of top quality tech and medicine to countries that agree to Xavier's terms.

It's basically Panama Island with every single mutant dubbed a retiree not due to years of job service put in like Social Security but basically for just existing.

Pretty good advertising if you just take it from the points and look at it on the surface level.

[davetvs]

Both can end up bleeding into each other. Saying how certain parts of Krakoa society is bad just pokes holes in the original metaphor when you have characters also using pejorative terms that encompasses all humans as a monolith of oppression when it’s just been a few who are in power doing it. Now saying the same things that have already been established I can agree is tiresome and new examples should be put forth. Though past writings still make for good examples when not referred to repeatedly but in moderation.

No it doesn't.................................honestly, where are you from? Black people have pejoratives for white people as monoliths of oppression. Finding that unfair doesn't mean anti-black racism no longer exists or, isn't as bad because the oppressed group retaliated to their own oppression with "meanness". Or that gay people who would want to live a country away from straight people to escape persecution are "LGBTQ supremacists."

[LordUltimus]

Actually it's not that hard.

Violent Crucible = strange and alienating.

Seeing everybody celebrate during that last issue of HOX without fear of extinction = hopeful.

And then they got rid of the Crucible after they realized that their mutant utopia was centered around what was, at BEST, ritualized self-harm.

Not to mention we also saw the New Mutants clapping and cheering at their friends gutting each other, so it's not like it was clear how we were supposed to feel about the Crucible anyways. Likely Hickman thought he'd just put it out there and let fans come to their conclusions, but then realized said conclusions were leading them into a path they didn't want Krakoa to be seen.

You see the problem, here?

And you know, I actually DON'T want to see Krakoa gone and be seen evil. I want them to actually prove they're superior to every civilization in history by admitting they fucked up, fixed it, and not brush it under the rug.