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  1. #31
    Extraordinary Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    Interesting that you should bring this up. I've heard the argument that the plight of mutants is comparable to that of Muslims in the Western world post-9/11 before.

    Again, the argument I made in my original post applies. A Muslim is just another human being who practises a particular religion. He or she is not inherently dangerous to their fellow human beings, unless of course they are radical extemists/terrorists actively seeking to maim and kill others.

    A mutant is not just another human being, and could be inherently dangerous to fellow human beings even if they are not radical extremists/terrorists and have no intentions of doing anyone any harm.

    Moving beyond that, barring some kind of mass-migration event accompanied by a decimation of the existing population of the Western world, we're never going to have a situation where Muslims, or any other minority group, is going to be able to wholesale 'replace' the existing population of the Western world, and an ordinary Muslim citizen who is not a member of a radical group or terror organization is never going to endorse such a 'replacement'. Whereas mutants scientifically have the potential to 'replace' the existing population of the world (i.e. normal human) and it might indeed be their evolutionary destiny - a viewpoint which is endorsed not just by radical/terrorist elements in the mutant community but also by people and groups who simultaneously advocate for peaceful co-existence.

    (This is of course ignoring the fact that Islam is a religion and a belief system, not something based even remotely in biology, so the comparision to mutants actually becomes even more tenuous than in the case of, say, the comparision of racial minorities to mutants).

    Ultimately, this proves my point. At a superficial level the parallel you were drawing makes sense, and you can tell an interesting story with it. But if you actually sit to examine it, the parallel does begin to fall apart.
    Oh, of course it's not a perfect metaphor, and it's not supposed to be. But the argument the poster was making could certainly lead to that comparison.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saithor View Post
    I hate to repeat myself, but going back to one of my earlier posts, most Muslims also didn’t want to join a country with Osama Bin Laden as one of its leaders. Now as is, I don’t mind Magneto since his redemption has been a long run thing that I think was mostly pulled off well. Apocalypse on the other hand…
    While of course, Magneto is not a Bin Laden (anymore, at least), would most people join a country that is a post-scarcity society with immortality, cure for all disease, free transportation to any part of the world in minutes, etc?

    Mind you, like I said, in the real world not only monsters like Apocalypse or Sinister, but even people like Wolverine and some of the X-men would be in jail for life or awaiting execution .

  2. #32
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    While of course, Magneto is not a Bin Laden (anymore, at least), would most people join a country that is a post-scarcity society with immortality, cure for all disease, free transportation to any part of the world in minutes, etc?
    It's still a hard sell.

    You can live in paradise, but your neighbors are Hitler, Mengele, Manson, Jim Jones, and Vlad the Impaler don't worry though, they haven't horribly murdered anyone in almost a week.

  3. #33
    Incredible Member Doom'nGloom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rift View Post
    He represents Tumblr.
    Lol okay fair enough.

  4. #34
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    As much as I personally hate some of them, we should probably not turn this into another discussion about characters like Apocalypse, Mastermind, Selene, Dakken, Mystique, Sinister, and worst of all, Fabian Cortez.


    Actually, I meant that last as a joke, but seriously, screw Fabian Cortez.

  5. #35
    Astonishing Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    Mutants basically rule the world, now, are they really a "minority" anymore?

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    It's still a hard sell.

    You can live in paradise, but your neighbors are Hitler, Mengele, Manson, Jim Jones, and Vlad the Impaler don't worry though, they haven't horribly murdered anyone in almost a week.
    I don't know whether to laugh or cry, imagining this for real is beyond hilarious.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    I don't know whether to laugh or cry, imagining this for real is beyond hilarious.
    I mean..Apocalypse is Hitler, obviously, Sinister was one of Mengele's colleagues...not sure if Manson or Jim Jones would be either Selene or Mastermind, maybe both, and Omega Red/Dakken are Vlad the impaler.

  8. #38
    Extraordinary Member Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    It's still a hard sell.

    You can live in paradise, but your neighbors are Hitler, Mengele, Manson, Jim Jones, and Vlad the Impaler don't worry though, they haven't horribly murdered anyone in almost a week.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rev9 View Post
    I don't know whether to laugh or cry, imagining this for real is beyond hilarious.
    You know, I would watch the hell out of that show LOL!

    Being serious though, one keep in mind your options would be to live in paradise where Hitler, Mengele, Manson, Jim Jones, and Vlad the Impaler are your neighbors...or live somewhere in the MU Earth were people as bad or worse attack every other week- Kang, Annihilus, freakin' Dracula, etc, attacking the world happens often, specially in New York, where no sane person would live.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    You know, I would watch the hell out of that show LOL!

    Being serious though, one keep in mind your options would be to live in paradise where Hitler, Mengele, Manson, Jim Jones, and Vlad the Impaler are your neighbors...or live somewhere in the MU Earth were people as bad or worse attack every other week- Kang, Annihilus, freakin' Dracula, etc, attacking the world happens often, specially in New York, where no sane person would live.
    True but do most of those characters purposefully focus on making your personal life a living hell?

    Like seriously, how many villains has it turned out to have been secretly screwing with Scott this whole time. I know Sinister was, I think Apocalypse was as well. Didn't Mastermind at one point too? Not sure on Selene.

    Oh, and we can't forget Charles of course.

  10. #40
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    You know, I would watch the hell out of that show LOL!

    Being serious though, one keep in mind your options would be to live in paradise where Hitler, Mengele, Manson, Jim Jones, and Vlad the Impaler are your neighbors...or live somewhere in the MU Earth were people as bad or worse attack every other week- Kang, Annihilus, freakin' Dracula, etc, attacking the world happens often, specially in New York, where no sane person would live.
    The big difference is that Kang, Annihilus, and Dracula don't all live in one place and aren't in charge of the government there. Also people live where they live and the villains show up. They don't go to the villains.

    Spider-man lived in New York before the Green Goblin set up shop there. The fact that these bad guys are here now is something he has to deal with.
    If you set up a new island nation told him Green Goblin and Dr. Octopus are in charge of the government and the rest of the Sinister Six is jhanging around throwing beach parties, do you think he'd want to move there?

    You know, I would watch the hell out of that show LOL!
    Okay, you've got me there. I would too.

  11. #41
    Astonishing Member gonnagiveittoya's Avatar
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    The ultimate issue with the mutant metaphor is essentially the concept of the Omegas (or the ranking system in general really) because it means there are members of a minority group who are objectively born more dangerous than others which...does not fit cleanly into the oppressed group allegory.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by gonnagiveittoya View Post
    The ultimate issue with the mutant metaphor is essentially the concept of the Omegas (or the ranking system in general really) because it means there are members of a minority group who are objectively born more dangerous than others which...does not fit cleanly into the oppressed group allegory.
    Pretty much.

    The extreme randomness of the super powers makes it impossible to know what to expect from an X-gene mutant, creating a natural basis for paranoia and fear, that goes beyond just general exclusion of "others".

    While a fictional minority with uniform super powers would likely also be met with paranoia and fear, the random nature of the X-gene technical mulitplies the issue, because at least with uniform powers, everyone would have at least some general idea of what a mutant would be capable of and how to responce to it, with the only x factor being how strong their version of the respective powers can be or how good they control them.

    Meanwhile with mutants one would have to expect EVERYTHING, from merely having twice as long fingers, to blowing up city blocks if they sneeze too hard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    Oh, of course it's not a perfect metaphor, and it's not supposed to be. But the argument the poster was making could certainly lead to that comparison.
    It's a good broad spectrum metaphor which breaks appart too easily when examined too closely or compared to the much more multi-dimensional issues and their cause the metaphor is refering to.

    Personaly i feel the mutant metaphor is a relative down to earth concept, since it refers to basic real world issues, despite being the origin and power source for groups of super heros and villains alike.

    That is of course not to say that they can't have fanastic or outlandish adventures, just like how Spiderman and even Batman can end up handling magical or space based dangers and enemies, even though their basic premise is pretty down to earth too.

    Still i feel the main strength of the mutant metaphor overall is that it reflects a situation which the intendet readership is aware of from their own mostly urbanized modern environments, which is why i also feel it's problematic to try and make it a high concept situation, as the current status quo does based on Hickman's original design, since it breaks the mutants metaphor out of it's foundation/natural environment and drags it straight into the spotlight where all it's logical issues and problematic implications are laid bare.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    While of course, Magneto is not a Bin Laden (anymore, at least), would most people join a country that is a post-scarcity society with immortality, cure for all disease, free transportation to any part of the world in minutes, etc?
    Doesn't that depend on their individual, social, cultural, ethnical and historical backrounds and how it would effect their view on said nation's promises?

    On one hand we have people from developing countries trying to get into european or north american countries by any means necessary (massive debts and risking their lifes in particual) beacuse they have some kind of utopic vision of how life there would be if they reach it, but there are also many groups in the same countries who remember from their history how they were promised great things only to get exploited, enslaved, cheated deported or otherwise harmed by believing in these promises.

    So for every person from these backrounds who would jump at the chance to become a citizen of Krakoa, just like how they might be willing to die on a rinky raft in the mediterranian sea or trying to cross the border between Mexico and the USA, there could very well be an equal number who quickly reject it because of remembering stories from their families about what happend to those who trusted promises of great things to come.

    Similar for everyone who might be willing to blindly join a cult that promises salvation, immortality, free love or utopia somewhere in a gated community/colony somewhere in remote location, there are many more who will reject it, not only because it will look and sound suspicious but also because they likely remember what happend to many similar groups, which usualy ended in mass suicide, mass murder, or because governmental law enforcement groups knocked at the gates to investigate all the reports of horrible things happening in their communities.

    And with Krakoa the original figureheads were A. a bald rich white guy, known to be able to read and manipulate minds of people, wearing some creepy face concealing helmet all the time, B. a man who is seen by some as freedom fighter for a small specific minority but by many as extremist and warlord who has threatend the entire world in more than one case and C. a guy who looks like a blue painted steroid abusing jugalo body builder who claims to be 4000 years old and views a perfect society as one where everyone kills each other to proof who is the strongest so they can rule over the weak, promising all kinds of wonderfull stuff, on the condition that people come to their magical remote wonder island.

    It would be quite reasonable for most mutants to be suspicious of this situation.

    In spite of Magneto complaining about "humans" not trusting Krakoa, because they expect the "other shoe to drop", it's actualy quite reasonable when we remember that in the majority of cases in history, it does.

    Either one group will suffer for the benefit of other (usualy fewer) people, or sober reality will proof just how difficult it is to build up better worlds from scratch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    Mind you, like I said, in the real world not only monsters like Apocalypse or Sinister, but even people like Wolverine and some of the X-men would be in jail for life or awaiting execution .
    Which is why i belief it was a bad idea to build a fictional nation on them being the leaders, government and heads of state, rather than having "boring" nameless or faceless people who do the job in the backround, since super heros and villains alike are "extreme" figures who represent human forces outside the established structures, which only work in the fanastic setup of super hero comics.

    Especialy super heros shouldn't be put in positions of community or governance, because their job is to resolve the problems arising from the limited or abused powers of these officials by their fantastic means.

    At least super villains can fill these positions, but only so they can then be the fanastic causes of problems, which the super heros can then resolve with equaly fanastic means, after which the "boring" people will fill the government or communual positions again.

    It's another problem the current status quo drags into the spotlight in my opinion.
    Last edited by Grunty; 01-25-2022 at 02:31 PM.

  13. #43
    BANNED davetvs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post

    A mutant is not just another human being, and could be inherently dangerous to fellow human beings even if they are not radical extremists/terrorists and have no intentions of doing anyone any harm.
    What's not clicking? That is true for anyone with enough control of their faculties to injure someone else. We are all inherently dangerous and inherently innocent, just because someone has dark skin, or long limbs, or autism, or an X-Gene doesn't mean they're more likely to hurt you. So discrimination ends up being nonsensical and thus minority groups struggle against it to achieve civil rights...like mutants in the marvel universe.

  14. #44
    Astonishing Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davetvs View Post
    What's not clicking? That is true for anyone with enough control of their faculties to injure someone else. We are all inherently dangerous and inherently innocent, just because someone has dark skin, or long limbs, or autism, or an X-Gene doesn't mean they're more likely to hurt you. So discrimination ends up being nonsensical and thus minority groups struggle against it to achieve civil rights...like mutants in the marvel universe.
    I remember a story when a teenager killed everyone in a small town without meaning it. The image of the mutant can describe different realities and authors explored it… for the sake of the story, not the sake of a metaphor.
    “Strength is the lot of but a few privileged men; but austere perseverance, harsh and continuous, may be employed by the smallest of us and rarely fails of its purpose, for its silent power grows irresistibly greater with time.” Goethe

  15. #45

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    The same arguments you're using for saying mutants are inherently dangerous are similar to the notions that black folk are 'dangerous' or gang affiliated.

    No one is taking it literally but there are GOSPEL TRUTH similiarities to how mutants are treated to how im treated as a black queer person and i speak from experience.

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