The problems with the ''mutant metaphor''

[Saithor]

They're holding Krakoa to a higher standard than any government that has ever existed on Earth. Try not to take them seriously.

Also, this:



Has also happened to pretty much every ethnic minority group in the US. But tell me again how the minority metaphor is flimsy and doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Lol.

Because heaven forbid we want anything aspirational in a book that is supposedly supposed to be aspirational.

Oh yeah, and fucking Operation Paper Clip didn't put Nazis in the actual seat of government.

Krakoa for mutants is better for mutants then most human ones. How is this even an argument? The only reason you can't say all is because different mutants might want different things. She was clearly talking to her fellow mutant excited that they were going to make the best society for mutants not repeating the same mistakes that human societies have made towards each other. That was the whole point of Krakoa. Her making that statement was not her taking a shot at her Native American side which was further proven by her natives voices line of not needing to choose between the two. She is mutant and native american thus wanting the best for both. However only mutants now united are able to make and create a land of their own while there are native americans who still suffer on reservations because

That's a nice line of reasoning. Mind showing me how you got all of that out of what was a single, off-hand line that Hickman put in a comic issue that could have been given to anyone but was given to Dani...why exactly?

[davetvs]

Because heaven forbid we want anything aspirational in a book that is supposedly supposed to be aspirational.

A persecuted minority establishing a sovereign nation free of said persecution is aspirational. Maybe not to you, for whatever reasons, but at the end of the day, you don't have to read the books.

[Baron of Faltine]

A persecuted minority establishing a sovereign nation free of said persecution is aspirational. Maybe not to you, for whatever reasons, but at the end of the day, you don't have to read the books.

Having a sovereign nation and working for co-existence do not negate each other conceptually. Just to add this.

[davetvs]

Having a sovereign nation and working for co-existence do not negate each other conceptually. Just to add this.

Totally agree.

[Saithor]

A persecuted minority establishing a sovereign nation free of said persecution is aspirational. Maybe not to you, for whatever reasons, but at the end of the day, you don't have to read the books.

I actually do like the books, like I've said many times, and I am sick and tired of hearing about how me criticizing an oligarchic governmental form accountable for no one, or the stupid decision to put the same words you could see coming out of a Fox News Host coming from characters who are supposed to represent actual minorities. Dani's "Mutants have ideologies and ideas that can form stable cultures that last a long time, unlike humans" bit is literally just the "Native Americans have contributed nothing to American culture because they didn't last" that comes out of right wing bigots.

I've already said I like the idea of Krakoa, I think it's a decent setting now that they've taken care of most of the landmines that were put there when the plan was to blow it up when Hickman was done with it. Apparently wanting it to be better however is an issue.

[Kingdom X]

Having a sovereign nation and working for co-existence do not negate each other conceptually. Just to add this.

I definitely think the franchise can easily reach a point where mutants are safe on Krakoa and co-existence becomes more of a priority again. I feel like some fans are really in their feelings about mutants being physically separated in one space…. When for the longest they were stuck in one space, it just happened to be one guy’s mansion.

Also we have gotta stop with the generalization that all mutants are “human hating supremacists” based on the quotes of specific mutants. I said this in another thread but please find me a group of truly hateful supremacists that go out of their way to provide life-saving drugs and disaster relief to the people they supposedly hate.

[Saithor]

I definitely think the franchise can easily reach a point where mutants are safe on Krakoa and co-existence becomes more of a priority again. I feel like some fans are really in their feelings about mutants being crowded in one space…. When for the longest they were stuck in one space, it just happened to be one guy’s mansion.

Also we have gotta stop with the generalization that all mutants are “human hating supremacists” based on the quotes of specific mutants. I said this in another thread but please find me a group of truly hateful supremacists that go out of their way to provide life-saving drugs and disaster relief to the people they supposedly hate.

I honestly don't think the case was supposed to be that even in early Hickman's run, but those statements were supposed to be warning signs (Along with Way of X), that mutantkind was going to be heading down a dark path if they continued to pursue that path. My issue was more with the specific character he had say it (I don't think there's major disagreement that Hickman's biggest strengths are not his character work or continuity involving characters) when it could have gone to others, and the fact that parts of the fandom go out of their way to excuse them.

Honestly my biggest issues aren't even minority related at this point, it's the backlog of worldbuilding left to be done about Krakoa and also the fact that the books don't seem well-suited for what would be an actual nation formed out of elements of literally every existing culture and country on earth, mostly because the focus is rather tightly on certain parts that don't help tell that kind of story.

[SiycoBatSquirrel]

Having a sovereign nation and working for co-existence do not negate each other conceptually. Just to add this.

It does negate when said sovereign nation as well as its own leaders and society refuses to acknowledge its own supremacist, god-complex ideology that they preach inside and outside their house that contradicts as well as conflicts with co-existing with those that are literally the non-super-powered version of themselves, regardless of genetics. Showing a few mutants in books that don't think that way is not gonna make the issue go away.

[Kingdom X]

I honestly don't think the case was supposed to be that even in early Hickman's run, but those statements were supposed to be warning signs (Along with Way of X), that mutantkind was going to be heading down a dark path if they continued to pursue that path. My issue was more with the specific character he had say it (I don't think there's major disagreement that Hickman's biggest strengths are not his character work or continuity involving characters) when it could have gone to others, and the fact that parts of the fandom go out of their way to excuse them.

I do think your complaint there makes a ton of sense. I can also see why others don't linger on it because it did take place at the beginning of the Hickman era where his writing in particular was pushing a more morally ambiguous Krakoa.

Honestly my biggest issues aren't even minority related at this point, it's the backlog of worldbuilding left to be done about Krakoa and also the fact that the books don't seem well-suited for what would be an actual nation formed out of elements of literally every existing culture and country on earth, mostly because the focus is rather tightly on certain parts that don't help tell that kind of story.

I think we discussed this in another thread and I definitely agree with you on it. I think the problem with these discussions is that they end up being very Pro-Krakoa vs. Anti-Krakoa, because there is so much nuance in-between. There are elements to like and elements to dislike, and I think sometimes that leads to a more engaging story.

[Saithor]

It does negate when said sovereign nation as well as its own leaders and society refuses to acknowledge its own supremacist, god-complex ideology that they preach inside and outside their house that contradicts as well as conflicts with co-existing with those that are literally the non-super-powered version of themselves, regardless of genetics.

Squints If I say what I might think is a rebuttal?

I don't think the Quiet Council has a concrete policy on that since it appears to be very hard to nail to a concrete policy on anything. The three most public faces may have agreed on a general stance for foreign relations (Presumably after Charles and Erik talked Apocalypse down from the idea of "Kill 90% of the world, but actually succeed this time"), but outside anything enforced by the three laws (Of which only don't kill humans seems to actually apply), most activities of the Krakoan government outside it's borders seems to vary based on which council member is involved with the events, or proxy if it is something like the Excalibur situation. We've only seen them intervene in cases of one of the Three Laws being broken (Nature Girl) and once when it wasn't (Excalibur's ending). There doesn't really appear to be any leading ideology, philosphy, or geenral guiding principle on Krakoa, although Nightcrawler is apparently attempting to fix this. It may look different because mutantkind as a whole has been acting very homogenous, when Krakoa should be playing host to about a few dozen different idologies and cultural differences at best, but that's more a limitation of the platform and a decision on the writer's part to just kinda move that to the side.

So while there may be a rising undercurrent of supremacy to mutants on Krakoa, some of it supported by some members of the council, none of it is actually controlled by the council, mostly because the council's control is very ill-defined and it's dictatorship like nature seems currently constrained by the fact that they can only do things as far as they themselves, and those they convince to help them, can carry it out.

Mercies help them the first time they have to deal with a populist movement. So probably Scott

[BroHomo]

Characters in the comics have literally talked about how mutants can build more stable societies unlike those silly humans, how certain human thoughts and emotions are silly and dumb, "We are your new gods" etc. It's literally in the text. Their literal future is about how they are an evolution of humanity and are destined to replace them. That's been a major thing since Morrison at least.

You might be taking it too literal. The dialogue you mentioned and the book as a whole? Like I don't think Magneto thinks he and every other mutant are supernatural deities whose interactions with humans lead to new levels of consciousness beyond the preoccupations of ordinary life. For years they've had humanitys boots pressed against their neck and now they've gotten the boot off and stood up it's not fair for them to use human as a insult. Man I'd be doing that and more lol

Also, if you're going to accuse us of being bigots, just do it and stop trying to force what I assume is some weird amalgation of Qanon and some other word?

Edit: Seriously, is QNXA some kind of slang or shorthand because all google turns up is some weight loss pill?

qnxa= and a lol my bad Google spell check tryna perpetuate Fake News
My bad

Including the classical characters: Magneto, Apocalypse, Exodus, Cortez, Sinister(even though he isn’t born one)
New additions: Any mutant on Krakoa who has used the word human to view some certain concepts as inferior or disgusting.

The mutant fanatics notwithstanding EVERY culture uses the names from 'other' communities as pejorative terms

Do you guys seriously not understand the full vastness of how badly the human societies have been to mutants. I'm not even talking about just super villains. Human governments passing laws to oppress mutants, Doctors force aborting mutants, scientist constantly looking for a mutant cure, mobs of people protesting your existence, public lynchings and attacks, being kicked out of homes, Kidnappings, organ harvesting , forced servitude, constant bad media to demonize mutants, and interment camps.

You would be hard press to find any aspect of human society that hasn't at one point been touched by anti mutant actions. Compare that to Krakoa it's night and day. Also that doesn't mean all humans

But wait Outburstz what about *insert mutant super villians* and yes there have been bad mutants and yet they don't out number human villains or anti mutant people with power (both political and super powers). They also must abide by Krakoa laws or they will be dealt with.

Saying that the Krakoa society they are building is better than the human ones for mutants is very much true. Now some mutants may want other things which is fine but let's stop pretending that Krakoa is a NWO mutant supremist island plotting the destruction of humans.

Lol your posts. But I feel ya exactly. It's Bizarre

[SiycoBatSquirrel]

Discussions like this is why I use them to try to understand the logic and flow of this new X world I'm reading but it seems like half the fanbase now is so done with the classic extinction-threat formula which has pretty much become the sole identifier of an X-comic, that they are willing to go to extremes as justifying why its reasonable for high-profile characters to enable shameless supervillains to hijack the mutant narrative in the open and cave to the pressure of giving alternative sides a voice knowing that its gonna add fuel to the fire and cause more division. It doesn't really help much in unifying the fanbase that the new X leaders are not as unified and dedicated as they present in public when they put their own self-interests above the needs of a new country that cannot effort that level of selfishness in its infancy. Krakoa as a concept I really do like and was interested in seeing how it would work but the execution is disillusioning and brings a level of exasperation at how these characters with vast histories of leadership and teambuilding can drop the ball so hard that should be a no brainer and tolerable to handle. Despite the updates to the issue, mass-produced free-for-all resurrection is just a significant flaw in the concept that just poisons the idea and the concept of abandoning common sense practices and systems because it's "too human" seems like this new society is either trying too hard to pettily reinvent the wheel or its just an excuse (and cover for villains) for allowing systemic malaise, abuse and corruption in whats suppose to be a safe environment for mutants.

[LordUltimus]

They're holding Krakoa to a higher standard than any government that has ever existed on Earth.

Because KRAKOA is holding itself to a higher standard than any government that has ever existed on Earth. What are you talking about?

[LordUltimus]

Bruh it seems the only people proclaiming Mutants as Superior to humans are you qnxa few folks in this thread lol

Yeah, it's not as if mutants don't describe anything they don't like to be "human" and thus something they're "above".

[LordUltimus]