What Are The Reasons For The Fantastic Four’s Decline In Popularity?

[Ravin' Ray]

The Frightful Four and the U-Foes were created for that purpose, but the FF have surpassed them.

Arguably the Red Ghost and his Super Apes were the original evil foursome, but they've gone off on their own and appeared in several other titles too.

[MichaelC]

Arguably the Red Ghost and his Super Apes were the original evil foursome, but they've gone off on their own and appeared in several other titles too.

Yeah, it was pretty common early on to contrast the dysfunctional family with a group that was composed of an authoritarian and his slaves. That's what Red Ghost and his apes were, and that's what Doom was with his Doombots. It's so often forgotten these days that it wasn't supposed to be Doom versus Reed, but Doom and the Doombots vs the Fantastic Four. In other words, a team of dysfunctional individuals who loved each other and brought different creative perspectives to the fight, versus a dictator and his perfectly obedient, but creatively sterile servants.

[Ravin' Ray]

It's so often forgotten these days that it wasn't supposed to be Doom versus Reed, but Doom and the Doombots vs the Fantastic Four. In other words, a team of dysfunctional individuals who loved each other and brought different creative perspectives to the fight, versus a dictator and his perfectly obedient, but creatively sterile servants.

Doom has a panoply of servants and allies over the decades to form his own foursome if he wants to: he (via a writer) can just take his pick of which ones to include.

[MichaelC]

My point is that Doom already IS one of those types of villains without needing to specifically make him part of a team of four. His Doombots have always put him in that category.

[Outburstz]

Doom is already their arch villain the whole point of a rogues gallery is that you don't have to just use the same villain.

[CaptCleghorn]

Arguably the Red Ghost and his Super Apes were the original evil foursome, but they've gone off on their own and appeared in several other titles too.

Arrgghh. I forgot about the Red Ghost. He even took his apes up into space to get some cosmic rays. But that group has also been surpassed and isn't really in the FF's league anymore as well.

My point is that Doom already IS one of those types of villains without needing to specifically make him part of a team of four. His Doombots have always put him in that category.

I'm not sure Doom with his minions qualifies in that way. As much legitimate grief as the FF get for being a Reed and his back-up heroes book, Doom is definitely a one man force, using others as tools. Sure, there are Doombots and characters like Victorius and even the Terrible Trio from way way back, but to Doom, they are as much a team as the FF is with their Fantasti-Car and Pogo Plane.

[Ravin' Ray]

My point is that Doom already IS one of those types of villains without needing to specifically make him part of a team of four.

Understood of course, the comparison wasn't intended to be a perfect four-on-four. If Doom does form such a foursome with himself a part it won't have the dynamics of the F4. We've seen at least one AU example that does come close in the form of House of M's Fearsome Four with Doom, Valeria (Invincible Woman), Kristoff (Inhuman Torch) and Ben (It).

[Iron Maiden]

Arrgghh. I forgot about the Red Ghost. He even took his apes up into space to get some cosmic rays. But that group has also been surpassed and isn't really in the FF's league anymore as well.



I'm not sure Doom with his minions qualifies in that way. As much legitimate grief as the FF get for being a Reed and his back-up heroes book, Doom is definitely a one man force, using others as tools. Sure, there are Doombots and characters like Victorius and even the Terrible Trio from way way back, but to Doom, they are as much a team as the FF is with their Fantasti-Car and Pogo Plane.

Ah, the Terrible Trio. They have to be Doom's most loyal employees and are still on his payroll after all these years. Mostly they're used for comic relief these days, as in the one shot 4 Yancy Street (2019) when he paid them just to hassle the Thing at the FF's new home. He even bailed them out when they got arrested afterwards

[MichaelC]

Arrgghh. I forgot about the Red Ghost. He even took his apes up into space to get some cosmic rays. But that group has also been surpassed and isn't really in the FF's league anymore as well.



I'm not sure Doom with his minions qualifies in that way. As much legitimate grief as the FF get for being a Reed and his back-up heroes book, Doom is definitely a one man force, using others as tools. Sure, there are Doombots and characters like Victorius and even the Terrible Trio from way way back, but to Doom, they are as much a team as the FF is with their Fantasti-Car and Pogo Plane.

And neither do the apes have the same dynamic. That's my point: the various anti-teams the FF face are authoritarian and creatively sterile compared to the FF's dysfunctional but creative and bound by love family.

[Iron Maiden]

The ironic part is that some of these forgotten villains of the Fantastic Four have been used with more interesting results in other titles by other writers: The Red Ghost and his Super Apes were mentioned and that's a good example. He had a really interesting teaming with Latveria's Lucia Von Bardas in Ed Brubaker's Winter Soldier. Even the Super Apes looked more deadly, esp the Gorilla.

This is what an FF writer should be doing. Get creative with the established characters and villains. IMO Slott hasn't been that guy.

art by Butch Guice



I mean this is insane...the gorilla is talking and using a machine gun.

[Oberon]

Overall, the FF's many villains have been picturesque, even caricatures of a sort - which to me would make them much easier to

go crazy as you say - insane. I mean the Terrible Trio is well served in those scenes too.

A short list of FF foes that could be jazzed up, from various eras.
Some of these maybe just need to have a reappearance, not so much tinkering.

Darkoth! [FF # 142] Has connections to Ben's past as a pilot, and also Dr. Doom (so, a possible contender for a Frightful Four)
The Sphinx - from the Nova/FF era around # 200. Now he would be the best choice, perhaps, to be the leader of evil FF


I always been fascinated with the Englehart era foe Fasaud. He may have returned elsewhere, but I'd like to see him again in the ff.
Oculus (sic) from Defalco run.
I think most of the foes after this were less interesting or just the same ones over.
I still wouldn't mind Tigra, Thundra, Medusa, or others showing up or having roles.
But clearly the interest level would demand more than one book at that point. Build it and they will come?

[Citizen Kane]

Allow me to provide a more superficial perspective: the team just isn't "cool", as far as earthbound heroes go. Look at their costumes. Look at their powers (with the exception of maybe Johnny). Look at their team dynamic. They're white bread, at this point—bland, even. They're probably the most functional group of people in the entire Marvel universe...and I don't think that's a bad thing. I just think the FF have been pushed aside by other, more colorful superhero squads (The Avengers, X-Men, Inhumans, Squadron Supreme, etc.).

There are posters in this thread saying that the FF used to be about exploration. Why not play into that? I think it would suit the FF to get the "Lost in Space" treatment—a family exploring the far reaches of the unknown. I think that would prove to be a benefit to the FF, giving them more room to grow and do their thing, getting them more involved in galactic politics and so on (hell, maybe even make them ambassadors of Earth). And when there's the odd crisis, who comes to save the day? The Fantastic Four.

[Vegeta]

Allow me to provide a more superficial perspective: the team just isn't "cool", as far as earthbound heroes go. Look at their costumes. Look at their powers (with the exception of maybe Johnny). Look at their team dynamic. They're white bread, at this point—bland, even. They're probably the most functional group of people in the entire Marvel universe...and I don't think that's a bad thing. I just think the FF have been pushed aside by other, more colorful superhero squads (The Avengers, X-Men, Inhumans, Squadron Supreme, etc.).

There are posters in this thread saying that the FF used to be about exploration. Why not play into that? I think it would suit the FF to get the "Lost in Space" treatment—a family exploring the far reaches of the unknown. I think that would prove to be a benefit to the FF, giving them more room to grow and do their thing, getting them more involved in galactic politics and so on (hell, maybe even make them ambassadors of Earth). And when there's the odd crisis, who comes to save the day? The Fantastic Four.

I think the FF are at their best when they are more "high concept" science fiction. Lee and Kirby, John Bryne, Walt Simonson's brief run and of course, Hickman. (Funny enough, 3 of the 5 I listed are more highly regarded as artists than writers.)

I don't think they should ever lose the core group, but an occasional substitution such as Crystal replacing Sue, She-Hulk replacing Ben, etc. can be a fun way to change the dynamic and bring new eyes to the title. I actually really liked the idea of T'Challa and Storm replacing Reed and Sue, (T'Challa having first appeared in FF and being a long time ally) but not a lot was really done with it. I would have liked the team to interact more with the greater MU. No more than 2 members should ever be subbed out at a time, ideally. (Although I did love the "New" FF team that took over for 3 issues in the 90's.)

FF does have some great villains, it's just that the best of them have generally been so well received that they became threats to the ENTIRE Marvel Universe! (Doom, Galactus, Annihilus, etc.) and the lesser known villains never really evolved in a way to remain an active threat to the increased power feats given to Johnny, Sue and Ben (Despite being a Frightful Four mainstay, Trapster is more of a B-list Spider-man villain nowadays.) Reed suffers the same problem as Tony Stark, as you can't have his technology stagnate, and that limits the variety of villains that can be provide a challenge. Sometimes, readers just want to see a really cool throw down.

On a personal note, I am admittedly more of an off and on Fantastic Four reader. I absolutely LOVE Ben Grimm, and his solo adventures. (The recent mini has been great!) I also always really liked the Invisible Woman. But I find the arrogance of Johnny Storm and condescending attitude of Reed Richards very off putting. Unfortunately, the negatives tend to trump the positives. (I know both Johnny and Reed are actually very deep and decent people underneath, but the personas they present to the world still annoy me regardless.) They both have important roles to play, Reed’s the scientist, and Johnny provides a comic foil to Ben to keep things lighthearted. So the book always needs a good creative hook (and beautiful art) to get me reading. Whereas the cast alone can get me to buy the Avengers and X-Men, no matter how mediocre the writing. That may sound stupid, but it is what it is.

[PCN24454]

Define “high concept” please. Does it mean “adventures in space” or “emphasis on super science”?

The adventures concept is tricky since it’s part of the reason why it’s so easy to get rid of them. It’s easy to disconnect them from the superheroes and settings without missing anything.

[CaptCleghorn]

The adventures concept is tricky since it’s part of the reason why it’s so easy to get rid of them. It’s easy to disconnect them from the superheroes and settings without missing anything.

And that's a problem some franchises have, especially those with older and more long term fanbases. Both the Legion and JSA tend to have older longer term fans and the FF, IMHO, is similar. Many of the these fans are happy with a series that didn't tie in with every blessed event around. Has the FF become a "Get Off My Lawn" comic?

The FF was revolutionary it how a team acted with each other and with their character development. But that was well over 50 years ago and now, everybody else has caught up. An obvious plan would be to try and gain new readers. And this, of course, is easier said than done.