Why is Cheetah a weaklink 90% of the time?

[phonogram12]

That is a weak excuse. Cheetah has had enough development.

Stats aren't development.

Besides, nothing justify poor writing.

On this, we agree. Which is why I think fans should be given a reason for us to care about whether or not Cheetah wins any given fight other than "stats."

And having a human physically challenge a God with no explanation is very poor writing. Nobody is going to care about Cheetah either, if she keeps being used as a jobber and a weaklink. I care about that already and many other fans care. We don't need to wait for a ''groundbreaking'' character moment, to call out crummy writing about her portrayal as a punching bag for street levelers.

How about just one? How about just one groundbreaking character-driven stories for readers to care?

[phonogram12]

Well, on some level, stats have to come into play.

On some level, yes, I completely agree. All I'm saying is that shouldn't be the only level.

Cheetah wouldn’t even be a decent adversary if she wasn’t a threat to Diana, or something she cherishes, just putting that out there.

I mean, lot's of characters can be threats, sure. Making them threats that make for a good story is something else entirely.

I guess my question is, what should be in a story to make you or folks like you care about Cheetah? Can you narrow it down to 3 main points?

I'm not a comic book writer, so I don't have an answer to that. The closest I got are the character-defining villain stories I already mentioned. I just want one iconic Cheetah story to make me care other than that she was on Super Friends and she looks cool.

[Psy-lock]

It's true that Cheetah doesn't have an iconic story on the level of the Killing Joke, but neither does Wonder Woman herself or any of her other villains. DC doesn't invest nearly as much into her as they do in Batman, so of course there won't be as many iconic stories for her and her villains.

[Amazon Swordsman]

I'm not a comic book writer, so I don't have an answer to that. The closest I got are the character-defining villain stories I already mentioned. I just want one iconic Cheetah story to make me care other than that she was on Super Friends and she looks cool.

You don’t really have to be a writer for that. You’re the reader, and everyone has their things they look for when reading comics or other works of fiction. For me, I look for Black characters and I’m looking to see how they’re used. That’s just one example. Others have named “iconic” stories from other characters and just say “well, Cheetah just doesn’t have that”. That may be true, but that depends on what we’re defining as “iconic”. What aspects of those stories make them iconic, and what’s stopping them from doing that for Cheetah? I know there are other characters who’ve had the privilege of having more people spend more time in developing stories and character moments that Cheetah hasn’t enjoyed, and I just felt like I had to defend her in that context.

[Primal Slayer]

Killing Joke isn't iconic because DC invested in it. The story, just like Jason's death were big stories within the bat universe.

A writer can write that story for WW/Cheetah. It just hasn't happened

[WonderLight789]

Stats aren't development.



On this, we agree. Which is why I think fans should be given a reason for us to care about whether or not Cheetah wins any given fight other than "stats."



How about just one? How about just one groundbreaking character-driven stories for readers to care?

Stats and battles are part of a story in the adventure-action comic genre. If you don't care that a human character is seen physically challenging a God like character with no explanation. That is your problem. I do care about consistency in power levels. And want them to make sense within the stories. If Cheetah is a good fight for WW. As a fan of WW lore i want an explanation to why a woman in a cat suit could ´physically fight her. I don't need to wait for ''character development'' to get upset about poor writing moments in a battle setting.

[Mistah K88]

Killing Joke isn't iconic because DC invested in it. The story, just like Jason's death were big stories within the bat universe.

A writer can write that story for WW/Cheetah. It just hasn't happened

Yeah, but those two stories hinged on Joker hurting/killing someone close to Batman (then they made him do that to the point of ridiculousness). Maybe Cheetah can kill someone close to Wonder Woman (perhaps an Amazonian)? I mean if how much they could bench mattered the most, a character like Zod would be at the top of Superman's rogues but he's nowhere near the bald man, just fodder for Superman to fight physically.

Though the constant moaning of physical strength and stats would make a GREAT Giganta story (as aside from growing, that is her thing)

[Primal Slayer]

Yeah, but those two stories hinged on Joker hurting/killing someone close to Batman (then they made him do that to the point of ridiculousness). Maybe Cheetah can kill someone close to Wonder Woman (perhaps an Amazonian)? I mean if how much they could bench mattered the most, a character like Zod would be at the top of Superman's rogues but he's nowhere near the bald man, just fodder for Superman to fight physically.

Though the constant moaning of physical strength and stats would make a GREAT Giganta story (as aside from growing, that is her thing)

Those types of stories do tend to resonate w/audiences so...it wouldn't be a bad idea. But it has to be a character that is important and the audience cares about to a degree.

[Mistah K88]

Those types of stories do tend to resonate w/audiences so...it wouldn't be a bad idea. But it has to be a character that is important and the audience cares about to a degree.

That's true, the problem is that Diana's recurring cast that we actually care for is pretty small (mainly due to writers trying to get rid of everybody and insert their characters, but that's another problem) that killing someone like Steve, Etta, Hippolyta, Cassie, and the like might just make it smaller.

[Nyssane]

People always talk about The Killing Joke but Wonder Woman will likely never have a comic book story to that level because people simply don't care about comics like they did back in 1988.

[Primal Slayer]

That's true, the problem is that Diana's recurring cast that we actually care for is pretty small (mainly due to writers trying to get rid of everybody and insert their characters, but that's another problem) that killing someone like Steve, Etta, Hippolyta, Cassie, and the like might just make it smaller.

Agreed. And that's always been the issue w/WW. Most creative teams that take over the title dont care about her history and cast but would rather introduce brand new characters while ignoring the pre-existing ones.

She already barely interacts w/her "sidekicks". They take the name but leave out the person that inspired them/trained them to be who they become.

People always talk about The Killing Joke but Wonder Woman will likely never have a comic book story to that level because people simply don't care about comics like they did back in 1988.

Also true but i think if its big enough it can gain decent traction. Id say right now Sacrafice arc in SM is WWs "killing joke" to a degree. Its referenced a lot, almost made it into a movie, got Lord into 84. "Robin" and "Superman" dating boys made national news and helped pique peoples interests in it.

So its still possible to get some kind of traction.

[phonogram12]

It's true that Cheetah doesn't have an iconic story on the level of the Killing Joke, but neither does Wonder Woman herself or any of her other villains.

Well, while I'm not a fan myself, George Perez's initial reboot did make a rather substantial impact. Greg Rucka did as well (with both runs), but to a lesser extent. And I've personally really enjoyed Spirit of Truth and the WW Earth One books.

DC doesn't invest nearly as much into her as they do in Batman, so of course there won't be as many iconic stories for her and her villains.

That I can agree with. And I do agree that that needs to be fixed. I just don't think it can just be fixed by upping who can beat up whom.

You don’t really have to be a writer for that. You’re the reader, and everyone has their things they look for when reading comics or other works of fiction. For me, I look for Black characters and I’m looking to see how they’re used. That’s just one example. Others have named “iconic” stories from other characters and just say “well, Cheetah just doesn’t have that”. That may be true, but that depends on what we’re defining as “iconic”. What aspects of those stories make them iconic, and what’s stopping them from doing that for Cheetah?

I guess what I'm saying is that I don't necessarily have the kind of imagination that some of the most renowned comic book writers out there have. Like with most of the most iconic stories, though, people know them when they see them.

I know there are other characters who’ve had the privilege of having more people spend more time in developing stories and character moments that Cheetah hasn’t enjoyed, and I just felt like I had to defend her in that context.

As you should. And I'm glad you want those stories from her as well as opposed to just simple beat 'em ups.

Stats and battles are part of a story in the adventure-action comic genre. If you don't care that a human character is seen physically challenging a God like character with no explanation. That is your problem.

Actually, I don't really consider it my problem as I really don't care for Cheetah because nothing really substantial has been done with her. Nothing about her characterization of her rivalry with Diana has given me reason to.

I do care about consistency in power levels. And want them to make sense within the stories. If Cheetah is a good fight for WW. As a fan of WW lore i want an explanation to why a woman in a cat suit could ´physically fight her. I don't need to wait for ''character development'' to get upset about poor writing moments in a battle setting.

Now this sounds like something that's your problem since that seems to be the only thing you ever really post around here.

[Amazon Swordsman]

If it were up to me, I think two things could help her, and the overall WW mythos in general (at least in comics):

WW gets her own editorial office. If any creative wants to do something that can be seen as controversial or put her in a negative light, they must consult the WW editorial first. The likes of Batman, cat woman, or nightwing etc taking down Cheetah would never happen without direct help from WW herself, or the story doesn’t happen flat out.

Also, I would impose a 5-7 year embargo on any new characters to be brought in the WW comic. You will not be able to introduce any new characters who haven’t already appeared in WW comics for that entire period, to hopefully establish some consistency.

[phonogram12]

If it were up to me, I think two things could help her, and the overall WW mythos in general (at least in comics):

WW gets her own editorial office. If any creative wants to do something that can be seen as controversial or put her in a negative light, they must consult the WW editorial first. The likes of Batman, cat woman, or nightwing etc taking down Cheetah would never happen without direct help from WW herself, or the story doesn’t happen flat out.

All this sounds great. That said, I hope the sole purpose of her own editorial office wouldn't only to make sure Cheetah could beat up people. Some nice character development would be great, too.

[Mel Dyer]

Exactly. All of this. Give me a reason to care about their rivalry other than the fact that Cheetah appeared on Challenge of the Super Friends...Yup. Just give me one good Cheetah story to make me care. And I'm not being sarcastic or anything here. Just give me a story that makes me believe that she's a great villain other than "stats." Stats alone don't make for an iconic character. Give me Cheetah's "Kraven's Last Hunt" or Selina's Big Score or Killing Joke or "Born Again."

Kudos, kangalier.

You broke that down, so much neater and better, than I did. I don't even know what a stat is, and I don't think I've ever read "Born Again", ..but, I got the rest, and I agree, with all of it! All we want's a good Cheetah story. We'll know it, when we read it.

Didn't Super Friends get stuck, with Cheetah, because Catwoman was already licensed to the Filmation Batman cartoon? I think I read that, somewhere.

I'm going to stop, before I write another five, caveated paragraphs. LOL

It's true that Cheetah doesn't have an iconic story on the level of the Killing Joke, but neither does Wonder Woman herself or any of her other villains. DC doesn't invest nearly as much into her as they do in Batman, so of course there won't be as many iconic stories for her and her villains.

Yes. That...up there. I concur. [I'm pointing, up there.]

I'll add this much. I don't think the disdain that some DC Comics writers and editors have shown Wonder Woman and characters, associated with her, is a justification for the story-poverty and editorial waste, so many of us fans have been complaining about, on this comic, ..for so-ooo long. It's not like we're crying 'Bigfoot', at summer camp; it's a legitimate criticism, ..and I guess poor, ole Cheets is just a wacky, polkadot illustration of all of that. It's not like we're picking on her.

Is she fuzzy Luthor or a female Sabertooth? Girl just needs a good@$$ story.

I feel translated, now. No deuce...thank you, both.