Why is Cheetah a weaklink 90% of the time?

[Alpha]

I mean, in Doomsday's first appearance he wrecks the entire Justice League and Superman goes on a city wide brawl that destroys everything around them, and Kal El dies alongside him.

What's Cheetah's greatest hour?


Batman shouldn't knock her out with one punch, but there are clear reasons why Doomsday is always seen as one of the strongest creatures to walk on earth.

[phonogram12]

False. Other characters are portrayed as mindless fighting machines. And they don't get treated as jobbers so often. Don't try to justify bad writing and sexism. And WW herself is constantly portrayed as a weaklink. So i guess she is not relevant and important after 80 years. Sigh. Like hero like villain.

Whose trying to justify sexism? For the billionth time, I do agree that sexism is an issue in comics (selective read much?). And doesn't WW deserve a foe who's more than just a "mindless fighting machine? Is that all you really want from Cheetah? All spectacle and no substance? Are you really that easily pleased?

Also true.

As stated elsewhere on this board look at for example, Doomsday. He doesn't have any depth or motivation beyond "kill things." People at DC have admitted they had no idea what to do with him after "Death of Superman." Yet we don't see Doomsday getting knocked out by one punch from Batman (and not Batman wearing a super-powered robo-suit mind, just regular baseline Batman), we don't see Bane beating Doomsday in a fight and so on. And Doomsday's not even an arch-enemy, just a prominent villain.

So why does that happen with Cheetah but not Doomsday?

It happened. Some people just like coming up with flimsy excuses why it doesn't count.

[WonderLight789]

Whose trying to justify sexism? For the billionth time, I do agree that sexism is an issue in comics (selective read much?). And doesn't WW deserve a foe who's more than just a "mindless fighting machine? Is that all you really want from Cheetah? All spectacle and no substance? Are you really that easily pleased?



It happened. Some people just like coming up with flimsy excuses why it doesn't count.

It didn't happen. They were clones. While Cheetah has tons of appearances getting treated as a jobber. And doesn't WW deserve to have villains that don't get treated as jobbers? In fact, doesn't WW deersrve to be respected as a powerhouse? Then why is she portrayed as a helpless weaklink in so many stories? Why is she a jobber in so many, many, many appearances? Why? Seems like the one easily pleased is not me. Since apparently you don't seem to mind how much WW and her lore are treated like garbage all the time.

[Mistah K88]

Grail is a New Gods character, she can't be WW's arch-enemy. Even if it's not Cheetah, she still has far better candidates in her own Rogues Gallery.

Oh I definitely believe this, however I was just suggesting the idea for the people who feel Diana's arch nemesis should be higher profile (i.e. Justice League level threat). Sure I feel Dr Cyber could fit the bill, but she, much like Superman's Brainiac doesn't have that PHYSICAL strength and must rely on computers and machines. Since no one cares if Giganta could satiate that thirst for physical power, I'd figure it's best to give the title of arch enemy to someone who has the build and the power everyone seems to want.

Plus...

No offence but I don't see why. Kingpin started off as a Spiderman villain but he's most known as Daredevil's arch-enemy

Wait...why are we using Doomsday as a comparison to Cheetah, he's not even Superman's arch enemy.

Speaking of that, with the other members of the trinity none of their arch enemies can physically challenge their heroes without the help of an external force, like Luthor's mech suit or Joker's Bulls***. Would it help the minds of people if Cheetah had some artifact or something on her to physically challenge Wonder Woman when she does so? (i.e. when she specifically prepared to fight Superman in the Brave and the Bold cartoon) I mean Lex doesn't wear his power suit 24/7, and he could get punched out by Batman (and not Batman wearing a super-powered robo-suit mind, just regular baseline Batman).

[WonderLight789]

Oh I definitely believe this, however I was just suggesting the idea for the people who feel Diana's arch nemesis should be higher profile (i.e. Justice League level threat). Sure I feel Dr Cyber could fit the bill, but she, much like Superman's Brainiac doesn't have that PHYSICAL strength and must rely on computers and machines. Since no one cares if Giganta could satiate that thirst for physical power, I'd figure it's best to give the title of arch enemy to someone who has the build and the power everyone seems to want.

Plus...



Wait...why are we using Doomsday as a comparison to Cheetah, he's not even Superman's arch enemy.

Speaking of that, with the other members of the trinity none of their arch enemies can physically challenge their heroes without the help of an external force, like Luthor's mech suit or Joker's Bulls***. Would it help the minds of people if Cheetah had some artifact or something on her to physically challenge Wonder Woman when she does so? (i.e. when she specifically prepared to fight Superman in the Brave and the Bold cartoon) I mean Lex doesn't wear his power suit 24/7, and he could get punched out by Batman (and not Batman wearing a super-powered robo-suit mind, just regular baseline Batman).

That doesn't change the fact that Cheetah is supposed to be powered up by a God. She shouldn't be hurt by the physical attacks of humans at all. She shouldn't be tagged by them either. And shouldn't go down to a mere bullet. Deadshot literally hit her at blank point range with an elephant gun in the head. And it did nothing to her. Equal to WW or not. She shouldn't be struggling and jobbing to humans and characters weaker than her without an explanation in the story. It shouldn't be that difficult.

[Nyssane]

Which she currently doesn't have. She's incredibly ill-defined.

This was true five years ago, but since Rucka's DC Rebirth run Cheetah has a definitive role in the Wonderverse. The Lies is Cheetah's definitive story.

[phonogram12]

It didn't happen. They were clones.

I'll reply to this the same way I replied to it in another thread you made about this: flimsy excuse.

This was true five years ago, but since Rucka's DC Rebirth run Cheetah has a definitive role in the Wonderverse. The Lies is Cheetah's definitive story.

Okay. I love Rucka. Hopefully his story leaves enough of an impact that fans outside of WW will actually care.

[hareluyafan1]

Wait...why are we using Doomsday as a comparison to Cheetah, he's not even Superman's arch enemy. .

Exactly. Doomsday isnt an arch-enemy to one of the DC "Trinity" yet he gets written with more respect (figuratively) than Cheetah who is.

Also we're using Doomsday because some posters have been trying to use the excuse of "well Cheetah isn't well-defined, doesn't have a deep motive etc and that's why she's disrespected by writers." This excuse doesn't hold water because, again, Doomsday doesn't have much depth or motivation yet he's shown more respect by writers than Cheetah.

Speaking of that, with the other members of the trinity none of their arch enemies can physically challenge their heroes without the help of an external force, like Luthor's mech suit or Joker's Bulls***.

Then why was there a movie where Catwoman held her own in a fistfight with Cheetah?

Would it help the minds of people if Cheetah had some artifact or something on her to physically challenge Wonder Woman when she does so? (i.e. when she specifically prepared to fight Superman in the Brave and the Bold cartoon) .

You do know that was an entirely different character who had nothing in common with the Barbra Minerva version of Cheetah except her moniker, don't you?

I mean Lex doesn't wear his power suit 24/7, and he could get punched out by Batman (and not Batman wearing a super-powered robo-suit mind, just regular baseline Batman).

But he doesn't. Ever. In fact in the Justice League cartoon when Batman fought a power suit-less Lex what happened? Oh yeah, Lex held his own against him. And in both the comics and an animated movie adaptation a suit-less Lex beat the tar out of Nightwing.

Why, it's almost as if Batman and Superman's arch-enemies are treated with more respect than WW's. In fact that's exactly how it is.

[hareluyafan1]

Whose trying to justify sexism? For the billionth time, I do agree that sexism is an issue in comics (selective read much?). And doesn't WW deserve a foe who's more than just a "mindless fighting machine?

No one is asking for a "mindless fighting machine." They're asking that WW's arch-enemy not be treated as a joke.

Is that all you really want from Cheetah? All spectacle and no substance? Are you really that easily pleased?

No, they want Cheetah to not get one-punched by Batman and not be defeated by Catwoman. Again, not treated as a joke.

It happened. Some people just like coming up with flimsy excuses why it doesn't count.

I didn't dispute that it happened. I asked why does it happen with Cheetah and not any of Superman or Batman's villains?

[phonogram12]

No one is asking for a "mindless fighting machine." They're asking that WW's arch-enemy not be treated as a joke.

Then hopefully someone will write a Cheetah story where fans can actually be bothered to care more about the character than just her "stats."

I didn't dispute that it happened. I asked why does it happen with Cheetah and not any of Superman or Batman's villains?

It happened with Doomsday, too, so that point is kinda moot.

[Mistah K88]

Exactly. Doomsday isnt an arch-enemy to one of the DC "Trinity" yet he gets written with more respect (figuratively) than Cheetah who is.

Also we're using Doomsday because some posters have been trying to use the excuse of "well Cheetah isn't well-defined, doesn't have a deep motive etc and that's why she's disrespected by writers." This excuse doesn't hold water because, again, Doomsday doesn't have much depth or motivation yet he's shown more respect by writers than Cheetah.

I have a different definition of "respect" when it comes to comic book characters as I don't respect plot devices like Doomsday at all. There's a reason why they've tried to make Bane more compelling than just the guy who injured Batman, as one trick ponies always become jokes.

Then why was there a movie where Catwoman held her own in a fistfight with Cheetah?

I'm afraid I don't know what you're asking here in response to my statement...could you rephrase it better? I remember Catwoman running a majority of the time in that Hunted movie. Let's play devils advocate when it comes to Catwoman specifically... she took out 3 Flashes at once in comics. Thus, holding her own with Cheetah shouldn't be a problem no?

You do know that was an entirely different character who had nothing in common with the Barbra Minerva version of Cheetah except her moniker, don't you?

Yes, I am aware of Pricilla Rich (I actually like her better than Minerva)... AND?! I'm using it as a comparison...

But he doesn't. Ever. In fact in the Justice League cartoon when Batman fought a power suit-less Lex what happened? Oh yeah, Lex held his own against him. And in both the comics and an animated movie adaptation a suit-less Lex beat the tar out of Nightwing.

I don't recall this, which episode was this? Normally Lex isn't portrayed as much of a fighter so I'm genuinely intrigued.

[hareluyafan1]

Then hopefully someone will write a Cheetah story where fans can actually be bothered to care more about the character than just her "stats.".

I agree that there are more important things than "stats." However I don't think "stats" should be completely dismissed either. A character's capabilities are an aspect of who they are. Again, not the most important by any means, but they are a factor.

Let me give you an example. One of my favourite characters in Naruto is Uchiha Mikoto. I like her because she's caring and warm-hearted. I don't care that she isn't the most powerful ninja ever or whatever. However at the same time, she was a jounin before retiring. That is an aspect of her. If I read a flashback story that had her losing to inferior foes, I would strongly dislike that.

It happened with Doomsday, too, so that point is kinda moot.

When? When did Doomsday get knocked out by Batman with one punch (again, regular Batman without any super-armour or anything)? When did Catwoman get up from being punched by Doomsday? When did Catwoman boot Doomsday in the face hard enough to make him feel it without breaking her own foot?

[Primal Slayer]

Nothing about Cheetah says that she has rock hard skin and cant feel anything. Being super strong doesn't equal that off the bat.

[BiteTheBullet]

Nothing about Cheetah says that she has rock hard skin and cant feel anything. Being super strong doesn't equal that off the bat.

Really like to play that devils advocate role.

You must really like the portrayal that Cheetah got in the Catwoman animated movie. You keep making posts that would suggest that everything was fine and you had no problem with any part of the movie.

[WonderLight789]

Nothing about Cheetah says that she has rock hard skin and cant feel anything. Being super strong doesn't equal that off the bat.

What kind of weak excuse is this? A character's durability should be proportional to her strength. Let's use the most basic exampls. For Cheetah to hit hard enough to break trees, steel etc without breaking her bones. Her own durability must be comparable to her striking force. And then a much more important example. Cheetah takes hits from WW all the time. And WW hits way harder than any peak human. So yeah. Cheetah shouldn't be damaged by street levelers in a random physical battle. Superman is not unaable to feel anything either. For as durable as he is. He can still bvleed, feel pain and be damaged. It just that you need power output high enough to do so. Cheetah is powered up by a God and is supposed to be durable enough to take hits from heavy hitters. So nothing suggests she should be cdamaged by human hits.