Why is Cheetah a weaklink 90% of the time?

[Mel Dyer]

There are villains more shallow like Doomsday. And they aren't treated like punching bags and jobbers as much as Cheetah. It is not an issue of quality story. WW herself gets the same treatment as Cheetah very often.

Doomsday was nothing, but, purpose. He might be a blunt object, but, at least, he's been put to constructive use for something. Comparatively speaking, Cheetah...? Pardon me, but, I think that's the worst villain to compare her to.

Aside from that, I'm with you, on this. I'm not trying to throw a bucket of pee on your Cheetah parade, but just doing the math and giving my two cents. As I see it, Patty Jenkins's Wonder Woman 1984 was the road test for Cheetah, and the character - not Patty - failed miserably. I think Cheetah's a garbage villain, just like Perez's Boo B'Ares, with a nebulous motivation that can't drive a story.

I'm with you on being sickened at how consistently, by writers across the DCU, she and other WW supervillains are treated dismissively, in a story. Further, they are treated in a way, that hurts Wonder Woman and her 'verse - schooled by the bad showings of her villains, comic fans dismiss her, as well.

Cheetah needs a complete overhaul, like remade into a new character, with a clear, narratively sustainable motivation, ..or refocusing, somehow. I think a writer can establish Bar Minerva, as the real monster, with a refocused motivation, which uniquely threatens Diana's mission, somehow - Cheetah just becomes a weapon, she's using to accomplish her goal, ..whatever that winds up being.

Again, ..can anyone here tell me what a Cheetah-ruled world looks like? What is the terrible consequence we face, if Diana fails to take her down? Global pet dander attacks? Yarn shortage? Dirty kitty litter, EVERYWHERE - oh no-ooo! We can't get a picture in our heads, because there isn't any. The most we can hope to do is what we always do, with Cheetah...hopeful speculation!

I'm tired of that. I think we should lower our expectations for this character, completely jettison any hopes of her ever being a respectable archenemy for Wonder Woman ..and sit her at the kiddy (or kitty) table, with Blue Snow and Hypnota. She can still play, but with revoked archenemy privileges.

She's so NOT the arch. No way. Never deserved it, anyway.

Presently, she's rubbish, with no story, anyone outside of our sympathetic fan community can care about.

[WonderLight789]

Doomsday was nothing, but, purpose. He might be a blunt object, but, at least, he's been put to constructive use for something. Comparatively speaking, Cheetah...? Pardon me, but, I think that's the worst villain to compare her to.

Aside from that, I'm with you, on this. I'm not trying to throw a bucket of pee on your Cheetah parade, but just doing the math and giving my two cents. As I see it, Patty Jenkins's Wonder Woman 1984 was the road test for Cheetah, and the character - not Patty - failed miserably. I think Cheetah's a garbage villain, just like Perez's Boo B'Ares, with a nebulous motivation that can't drive a story.

I'm with you on being sickened at how consistently, by writers across the DCU, she and other WW supervillains are treated dismissively, in a story. Further, they are treated in a way, that hurts Wonder Woman and her 'verse - schooled by the bad showings of her villains, comic fans dismiss her, as well.

Cheetah needs a complete overhaul, like remade into a new character, with a clear, narratively sustainable motivation, ..or refocusing, somehow. I think a writer can establish Bar Minerva, as the real monster, with a refocused motivation, which uniquely threatens Diana's mission, somehow - Cheetah just becomes a weapon, she's using to accomplish her goal, ..whatever that winds up being.

Again, ..can anyone here tell me what a Cheetah-ruled world looks like? What is the terrible consequence we face, if Diana fails to take her down? Global pet dander attacks? Yarn shortage? Dirty kitty litter, EVERYWHERE - oh no-ooo! We can't get a picture in our heads, because there isn't any. The most we can hope to do is what we always do, with Cheetah...hopeful speculation!

I'm tired of that. I think we should lower our expectations for this character, completely jettison any hopes of her ever being a respectable archenemy for Wonder Woman ..and sit her at the kiddy (or kitty) table, with Blue Snow and Hypnota. She can still play, but with revoked archenemy privileges.

She's so NOT the arch. No way. Never deserved it, anyway.

Presently, she's rubbish, with no story, anyone outside of our sympathetic fan community can care about.

doomsday has no purpose beyonbd being a killing machine. And you don't see him treated as a jobber as often.

WW84 sucked in general. And it had everything to do with jenkins and john's writing.

[Gaius]

Yep.

This is a thread that definitely needed to be revived.

Definitely haven't had any power levels/disrespected discussion in the Power Levels complaints thread, General Discussion thread, or the Specific Writers You Want to See Write Wonder Woman thread.

[SiegePerilous02]

Doomsday was nothing, but, purpose. He might be a blunt object, but, at least, he's been put to constructive use for something. Comparatively speaking, Cheetah...? Pardon me, but, I think that's the worst villain to compare her to.

Aside from that, I'm with you, on this. I'm not trying to throw a bucket of pee on your Cheetah parade, but just doing the math and giving my two cents. As I see it, Patty Jenkins's Wonder Woman 1984 was the road test for Cheetah, and the character - not Patty - failed miserably. I think Cheetah's a garbage villain, just like Perez's Boo B'Ares, with a nebulous motivation that can't drive a story.

I'm with you on being sickened at how consistently, by writers across the DCU, she and other WW supervillains are treated dismissively, in a story. Further, they are treated in a way, that hurts Wonder Woman and her 'verse - schooled by the bad showings of her villains, comic fans dismiss her, as well.

Cheetah needs a complete overhaul, like remade into a new character, with a clear, narratively sustainable motivation, ..or refocusing, somehow. I think a writer can establish Bar Minerva, as the real monster, with a refocused motivation, which uniquely threatens Diana's mission, somehow - Cheetah just becomes a weapon, she's using to accomplish her goal, ..whatever that winds up being.

Again, ..can anyone here tell me what a Cheetah-ruled world looks like? What is the terrible consequence we face, if Diana fails to take her down? Global pet dander attacks? Yarn shortage? Dirty kitty litter, EVERYWHERE - oh no-ooo! We can't get a picture in our heads, because there isn't any. The most we can hope to do is what we always do, with Cheetah...hopeful speculation!

I'm tired of that. I think we should lower our expectations for this character, completely jettison any hopes of her ever being a respectable archenemy for Wonder Woman ..and sit her at the kiddy (or kitty) table, with Blue Snow and Hypnota. She can still play, but with revoked archenemy privileges.

She's so NOT the arch. No way. Never deserved it, anyway.

Presently, she's rubbish, with no story, anyone outside of our sympathetic fan community can care about.

So let me get this straight...in a movie that was raked over the coals for various decisions Patty made, Cheetah was the one element that she wasn't at fault for? It's the fictional characters fault, and not her, the storyteller with all the agency? Who threw in elements not even from the comics?

Why do we have to imagine what a Cheetah ruled world looks like? The personal arches are seldom global threats on their own, that's usually why they team up with each other while the likes of Darkseid or Brainiac can act as solo big threats. Nobody questions that the Joker is Batman's personal arch, yet Ra's is the global threat.

There isn't much logical flow in your argument

[Mel Dyer]

So let me get this straight...in a movie that was raked over the coals for various decisions Patty made, Cheetah was the one element that she wasn't at fault for? It's the fictional characters fault, and not her, the storyteller with all the agency? Who threw in elements not even from the comics?

Why do we have to imagine what a Cheetah ruled world looks like? The personal arches are seldom global threats on their own, that's usually why they team up with each other while the likes of Darkseid or Brainiac can act as solo big threats. Nobody questions that the Joker is Batman's personal arch, yet Ra's is the global threat.

There isn't much logical flow in your argument

But we have to care about the personal arches, as you call them, and we don't care about Diana/Barbara, because it's so hopelessly dull and pretentious. It's a sorry mess, and a feature film couldn't change our minds about it or Cheetah, who blows. These ladies were best friends, until fate cruelly turned Minerva into a Cats audition...boo'hoo! A friendship destroyed! Oh, no! It happens, every five minutes on LMN, usually ending with a garden party (ALWAYS a stupid garden party)...but, oh no! We just don't care about Di and Bar losing theirs, and why is that?

We don't care, because the loss of this friendship has no clearly identifiable, unbearable consequences - that's part of it, at least. I'll give you that every superhero enmity doesn't have to involve world conquest and the unthinkable consequences, which follow. Can anyone tell me what unthinkable consequences should follow Diana losing Cheetah, as a friend, indefinitely?

Will she lose all her Wonder-powers? Eat too much gourmet ice cream? Runny bowels? What is the great, terrible thing we can't bear to see unfold, with the disintegration of Diana and Bar Minerva's retconned friendship?

Is that why Diana left the island, my friends? Did she leave the island to protect friendships? Is that Wonder Woman's mission? Is that what the comic is about? No...? Superhero comic arch-enmities have to be about unthinkable, unbearable outcomes, the hero would literally die to protect us from. There's no wiggle room in that, and that much is standard, in every comic.

But THAT, fair kangaliers, ..is why Cheetah, as is, doesn't work, as the arch. She needs a complete overhaul.

[SiegePerilous02]

But we have to care about the personal arches, as you call them, and we don't care about Diana/Barbara, because it's so hopelessly dull and pretentious. It's a sorry mess, and a feature film couldn't change our minds about it or Cheetah, who blows. These ladies were best friends, until fate cruelly turned Minerva into a Cats audition...boo'hoo! A friendship destroyed! Oh, no! It happens, every five minutes on LMN, usually ending with a garden party (ALWAYS a stupid garden party)...but, oh no! We just don't care about Di and Bar losing theirs, and why is that?

We don't care, because the loss of this friendship has no clearly identifiable, unbearable consequences - that's part of it, at least. I'll give you that every superhero enmity doesn't have to involve world conquest and the unthinkable consequences, which follow. Can anyone tell me what unthinkable consequences should follow Diana losing Cheetah, as a friend, indefinitely?

Will she lose all her Wonder-powers? Eat too much gourmet ice cream? Runny bowels? What is the great, terrible thing we can't bear to see unfold, with the disintegration of Diana and Bar Minerva's retconned friendship?

Is that why Diana left the island, my friends? Did she leave the island to protect friendships? Is that Wonder Woman's mission? Is that what the comic is about? No...? Superhero comic arch-enmities have to be about unthinkable, unbearable outcomes, the hero would literally die to protect us from. There's no wiggle room in that, and that much is standard, in every comic.

But THAT, fair kangaliers, ..is why Cheetah, as is, doesn't work, as the arch. She needs a complete overhaul.

People responded well to the dissolution to their friendship in the Rebirth run. Even others who didn't like the run thought Cheetah was a highlight who started to click as a character. Just because you find it boring and pretentious doesn't mean everyone does. And why would fans of it in the comic necessarily defend how the movie did it? The movie did it way differently. They barely knew each other and Barabaras transformation was rushed and nonsensical, that's not the case in the comic. Why shouldn't we hold Patty at fault for disregarding the blueprint the comic laid out for her?

I think Barbara's curse turning her into a dangerous villain who eats people and Diana reconciling her desire to save her with the stone cold fact she may have to put her down is dire enough on a personal level. And Barbara has to genuinely struggle with her good and evil sides so that there is something worth fighting for on Diana's end. They are a toxic friendship on a grand scale, the type of heightened versions of everyday things that make superhero stories resonate. It takes it's cues from pre-Crisis Superman and Lex, which was the superior version of that relationship.

Personal feuds with the arches don't usually involve the hero being prepared to die to protect us. Because they do that with every action against every for. The arch has it out for them personally. Barabaras wants to hurt Diana while deep down wanting to be saved by her. Diana wants to save her friend but protect others from her, and those goals are going to be at odds. And they are both immortal, so they are trapped in this cycle the way other arches inherently aren't. There doesn't have to be dire consequences to the whole world every time they clash. Those kind of stakes get very dumb if they are overused. It's why the Joker becomes a terrible villain when he's removed from the smaller scale of Gotham.

And even if Diana doesn't hate Cheetah the way Batman hates Joker...would that matter? Diana is not that sort of character to develop that kind of dynamic with any arch nemesis you throw at her

[Rightoya]

As I see it, Patty Jenkins's Wonder Woman 1984 was the road test for Cheetah, and the character - not Patty - failed miserably. I think Cheetah's a garbage villain, just like Perez's Boo B'Ares, with a nebulous motivation that can't drive a story.

What are you even talking about? Patty Jenkin's Cheetah is easily the worst version of Barbara Minerva outside of Batman media, she has a rushed and uninspired connection with Wonder Woman, her powers are an ill-defined mirror to Wonder Woman which are portrayed extreme poorly and don't make any deeper sense for a Cheetah, she is just a secondary villain to Maxwell Lord who even gave her these powers in a random way to begin with, and her designs are a woman who dresses funny in a Cheetah theme and an odd looking cgi monster in her final form. Even just on paper should even people who have no clue about Wonder Woman or Cheetah, be able to see that there was no hope for that Cheetah to end up as anything else than a failure, which is so silly because especially Fox Quicksilver has proven that super speed scenes are a lot of fun and even just as an uninspired speedster she would have been far more entertaining already.

[Mel Dyer]

I didn't say they had to be unbearable for the whole world...just unbearable. And they aren't with Cheetah and Diana - not enough for.most us to give cold gravy about it.

I hear everything you're saying; truly, I do.

I just don't think there’s a story there, ..if there ever was.

Maybe, there can be, with another reboot or revision.

After WW84, I started asking myself, why Cheetah? Why does it seem we're stuck on making her the arch?

I'm okay with Cheetah...

It's Cheetah as the arch, I'm done with.

[SiegePerilous02]

I didn't say they had to be unbearable for the whole world...just unbearable. And they aren't with Cheetah and Diana - not enough for.most us to give cold gravy about it.

I hear everything you're saying; truly, I do.

I just don't think there’s a story there, ..if there ever was.

Maybe, there can be, with another reboot or revision.

After WW84, I started asking myself, why Cheetah? Why does it seem we're stuck on making her the arch?

I'm okay with Cheetah...

It's Cheetah as the arch, I'm done with.

What other arch enemies are bringing unthinkable consequences?

Outside of Thawne messing up the timeline when screwing with Barry Allen, all the pairings are fairly routine.

Plus, Cheetahs a personal nemesis who has achieved iconic status and has managed to stick around. She put the work in, so DC is keeping her, Ares and Circe in the top spots as the arches, and I don't see it ever changing. Circe barely has a leg up on her because her motivation is even less consistent than Cheetahs, and doesn't have any grand philosophical goals beyond being a pest.

[BiteTheBullet]

Doomsday was nothing, but, purpose.
Aside from that, I'm with you, on this. I'm not trying to throw a bucket of pee on your Cheetah parade, but just doing the math and giving my two cents. As I see it, Patty Jenkins's Wonder Woman 1984 was the road test for Cheetah, and the character - not Patty - failed miserably. I think Cheetah's a garbage villain, just like Perez's Boo B'Ares, with a nebulous motivation that can't drive a story.

I know other posters have responded to this post but I would like to know why Patty did not fail the character? The movie was written and directed by Patty (co-written to be fair). Why wouldn't she bear the brunt of the absolute failure the movie and how the character of the Cheetah was portrayed?

[Vordan]

What are you even talking about? Patty Jenkin's Cheetah is easily the worst version of Barbara Minerva outside of Batman media, she has a rushed and uninspired connection with Wonder Woman, her powers are an ill-defined mirror to Wonder Woman which are portrayed extreme poorly and don't make any deeper sense for a Cheetah, she is just a secondary villain to Maxwell Lord who even gave her these powers in a random way to begin with, and her designs are a woman who dresses funny in a Cheetah theme and an odd looking cgi monster in her final form. Even just on paper should even people who have no clue about Wonder Woman or Cheetah, be able to see that there was no hope for that Cheetah to end up as anything else than a failure, which is so silly because especially Fox Quicksilver has proven that super speed scenes are a lot of fun and even just as an uninspired speedster she would have been far more entertaining already.

It’s like saying Lex sucks because Jesse Eisenberg’s take was crap lol. Or that Joker is a bad character because Leto was garbage. Come to think of it, all three of the Trinity’s arches in the DCEU were terrible. They did a bad adaption, it’s unfortunate but it happens. Let’s hope the video game treats Cheetah better.

[marhawkman]

Like most stupid WW villains, she doesn't do anything, really. Just prances around, scratching people! For what? What does she want?

Can anybody here tell us what a Cheetah-ruled world looks like?

I'mma let you finish but.... What reason do writers have to give every single villain ever giant universe endign ambitions?

What terrible things should we fear, if Cheetah succeeds at whatever she's trying to accomplish? There's NO story, here!

Ah, but that's just the thing.... Is it Cheetah's GOAL we oppose or her methods? No really. This is the sort of thing that defines a villain as character, what are they doing and WHY?

[SiegePerilous02]

It’s like saying Lex sucks because Jesse Eisenberg’s take was crap lol. Or that Joker is a bad character because Leto was garbage. Come to think of it, all three of the Trinity’s arches in the DCEU were terrible. They did a bad adaption, it’s unfortunate but it happens. Let’s hope the video game treats Cheetah better.

I would even argue she got the best deal of the three, even though that's a very low bar.

Eisenberg and Leto are borderline unwatchable in their roles. Wiig I think does pretty well with what she is given and has good chemistry with Gadot. It's just that the writing is so intrinsically weird for this character. Wiig probably would have been fine if the writing for the character was closer to Ruckas, and the plotting, special effects and action delivered accordingly.

[Vordan]

I would even argue she got the best deal of the three, even though that's a very low bar.

Eisenberg and Leto are borderline unwatchable in their roles. Wiig I think does pretty well with what she is given and has good chemistry with Gadot. It's just that the writing is so intrinsically weird for this character. Wiig probably would have been fine if the writing for the character was closer to Ruckas, and the plotting, special effects and action delivered accordingly.

I would agree, of the three she’s the best because Eisenberg causes me to experience physical pain seeing how godawful his take on Lex is, and Leto is the embodiment of cringe try-hard. I think DCEU Cheetah suffered because they put Lord in that movie, it should’ve just been her as the sole villain.

[WonderLight789]

Cheetah works best as an anti hero imo. I think we have enough material with her by know, to know that her dynamic with Diana is at its best when they play with this friendenemy concept. They have a hiatory with a lot of potential and room to grow. They just need to expand it, and stop using Cheetah as the punching bag of the bat family or a secondary hand for the likes of luthor. Just like with Diana next to bm and sm. Cheetah gains nothing from interacting with other villains or heroes lore, if her only pourpose is to be there as the jobber.