Why is Cheetah a weaklink 90% of the time?

[Mel Dyer]

This would go so much further into making the character interesting than just about anything else.

It's just asking a simple question...you know?

Like what's the worst thing that could happen to us - Wonder Woman left her island to protect us - if Cheetah wins? Big kitty litter shortage? Hide all the YARN and knit sweaters, cuz here comes trouble! What's Cheetah threatening that's so important to Wonder Woman's reason for doing what she does?

I don't understand why this hasn't happened, already. Cheetah or Minerva could be such a marvelously complex super-villain and one demonically focused on Diana's destruction, in some way that threatens the world or has some dreadful consequences.

Think, "If Cheetah wins...?" What? There's no what, with Cheetah.

Furthermore, how does the big what make Wonder Woman uniquely suited, as if god-anointed, to destroy her? That's my problem, with most of Wonder Woman's super-villains. Answering that what takes some editorial consistency - some follow-through - and, on the part of the writer, some imagination. We need a story that has Wonder Woman and her Moriarty, glaring at each other, broken and bloodied, from their sky-shaking battle, over the smoking ruins of the world, ..and I don't see Cheetah in that story. I don't see her in that story, because writers and editors haven't done the narrative work to sell me that ..and make me believe it always had to be Cheetah.

With out that work, Cheetah's just a Mary, Queen of Scots in fuzzy, polkadot, footy pajamas. She's a slumber party girl, bouncing off the walls, on a sugar-high. She's not the inevitable antagonist, glaring at Diana, in the ruins.

I don't think I'm asking for so much. Do you?

Ok I'll be honest. At what point is being an archenemy means being someone that ideologically stands against the main character vs someone that just fights the character a lot? Diana currently has 3 villains trying to claim archenemy status (Ares,Circe,Cheetah) guess which one Diana was sent to stop? I'll give you a hint, it was that Darth Blueberry you seem to hate so much, for no real reason I might add.

I happen to like Cheetah as a woman feigning friendship to Diana only to support herself and her career, someone that was always looking for more (greed being her vise), and then getting more then she asked for with the Cheetah curse. I would prefer a new take without Urzkartaga and that included the Bana and Egyptian Gods but whatever. She is human, she has flaws, it genuinely sucks what happened to her and trying to free herself is a perfect motivation for her, however it was also justice from a divine standpoint. Maybe Barabra is just looking to keep the form but have her own autonomy or something like that, its human but it's still incredible selfish and greedy because she wants to keep the power. IDK just spit balling here.

I don't see Cheetah as an archenemy, not for the ideological standpoint at least, just someone that fights Diana a lot and is or was very close to her.

Oh, I hate Boo B'Ares for a very good reason. He sucks.

He's s big pile of shiny, sticky blueberries, who doesn't do anything that means anything, outside of the WW comic, and it's an insult to WW fans, everywhere, that he's the worst, she's got to worry about. He could've been developed into something intriguing, once, if some editor could have been bothered, with seeing that through. Editors could have hired writers to write Ares stories or, in the bullpen days, getting the staff writers to do something, with him. They could have trapped him in the body of a woman. They could have explored his creepy Martian Fortress and his creepier courtiers - Silver Swan, General Destruction, Duke of Deception...the whole bunch. It's sad, that it didn't happen...

And now, he's Boo B'Ares.

What's the worst that happens to all of us - again, Diana's here to protect us - if Ares wins everything. We've never read that story, and, while I think George Perez's work came very close, he just scratched the surface, really. What dread fate is it, exactly, that Wonder Woman has to save us from, when we're talking about Ares? I would LOVE to read that story!

"Run! Run for your lives! It's the color blue! It's Darth Blue! Somebody call Wonder Woman!"

And you're wrong about my problem, with how Cheetah's been written.

I'm not pre-occupied with her and Diana being cosmic opposites ..or seeing some hastily crafted duality, between them There's nowhere in anything I've written calling for Cheetah to be trumped up, as some sort of hokey opposite of Wonder Woman - saw Phil try that, with Circe, and I don't think it worked, so well. I've been very vocally against that sort of thing, because coming out of Burton's Batman, it seemed too many comic writers were trying to do that - the apocalyptically inevitable archenemy - and I've never been able to see Cheetah, as such.

What I said was, ..that Cheetah, if she's to be the official arch, must threaten what is most important to Wonder Woman, or the other way around, ..or I don't think you have a classic archenmity. One of them must fall. There can be only one. That's all I said about it.

[Perseus]

Oh, I hate Boo B'Ares for a very good reason. He sucks. He's s big pile of shiny, sticky blueberries, who doesn't do anything that means anything, outside of the WW comic. He could've been developed into something intriguing, once, if some editor could have been bothered, with seeing that through. Editors could have hired writers to write Ares stories or, in the bullpen days, getting the staff writers to do something, with him. They could have trapped him in the body of a woman. They could have explored his creepy Martian Fortress and his creepier courtiers - Silver Swan, General Destruction, Duke of Deception...the whole bunch. It's sad, that it didn't happen...

And now, he's Boo B'Ares.

"Run! Run for your lives! It's the color blue! It's Darth Blue! Somebody call Wonder Woman!"

And you're wrong about my problem, with how Cheetah's been writing. There's nowhere in anything I've written calling for Cheetah to be trumped up, as some sort of hokey opposite of Wonder Woman - saw Phil try that, with Circe, and I don't think it worked, so well. I've been very vocally against that sort of thing, because coming out of Burton's Batman, it seemed too many comic writers were trying to do that - the apocalyptically inevitable archenemy - and I've never been able to see Cheetah, as such.

What I said was, ..that Cheetah, if she's to be the official arch, must threaten what is most important to Wonder Woman, or the other way around, ..or I don't think you have a classic archenmity. One of them must fall. There can be only one. That's all I said about it.

Maybe my head isn't stuck in the golden age. I guess I just like the Perez-Rucka era Ares. It's not the character's fault that he means nothing outside of the WW comic, its editorial like you just said. How many threads and discissions have we had about Diana's mythos being meaningless in the grand scheme of the DC universe? I lost track. But, whatever, Ares isn't your cup of tea, you don't like the cut of his jib, its fine.

"The gods didn't send Diana to Man's World to stay alive or to kill or restrain Cheetah, specifically; so, why should we care what happens, between them...their ongoing enmity?" These not your words? This what I was responding to. What is YOUR definition of an archenemy then?

Anyway, I do agree that Cheetah isn't the archenemy type, they just fight a lot, and they happen to have been close friends. So, they encounter one another quite a bit.

[Perseus]

It's just asking a simple question...you know?

Like what's the worst thing that could happen to us - Wonder Woman left her island to protect us - if Cheetah wins? Big kitty litter shortage? Hide all the YARN and knit sweaters, cuz here comes trouble! What's Cheetah threatening that's so important to Wonder Woman's reason for doing what she does?

I don't understand why this hasn't happened, already. Cheetah or Minerva could be such a marvelously complex super-villain and one demonically focused on Diana's destruction, in some way that threatens the world or has some dreadful consequences.

Think, "If Cheetah wins...?" What? There's no what, with Cheetah.

Furthermore, how does the big what make Wonder Woman uniquely suited, as if god-anointed, to destroy her? That's my problem, with most of Wonder Woman's super-villains. Answering that what takes some editorial consistency - some follow-through - and, on the part of the writer, some imagination. We need a story that has Wonder Woman and her Moriarty, glaring at each other, broken and bloodied, from their sky-shaking battle, over the smoking ruins of the world, ..and I don't see Cheetah in that story. I don't see her in that story, because writers and editors haven't done the narrative work to sell me that ..and make me believe it always had to be Cheetah.

With out that work, Cheetah's just a Mary, Queen of Scots in fuzzy, polkadot, footy pajamas. She's a slumber party girl, bouncing off the walls, on a sugar-high. She's not the inevitable antagonist, glaring at Diana, in the ruins.

I don't think I'm asking for so much. Do you?

Never mind, you basically say it right here.

Have you ever considered that part of the complexity of Cheetah is actually that she isn't looking for apocalyptic destruction? It surprisingly a more human story.

[Perseus]

What's the worst that happens to all of us - again, Diana's here to protect us - if Ares wins everything. We've never read that story, and, while I think George Perez's work came very close, he just scratched the surface, really. What dread fate is it, exactly, that Wonder Woman has to save us from, when we're talking about Ares? I would LOVE to read that story!

Your constant editing is making it hard to respond lol.

So, you just want a "what if Ares won" basically. Which really just means an empty, soundless, dead void of a universe. The whole death of all life in the universe caused by a massive universal war that ultimately means the death of most if not all gods because no one is left to worship them, including Ares?

[Mel Dyer]

Never mind, you basically say it right here.

Have you ever considered that part of the complexity of Cheetah is actually that she isn't looking for apocalyptic destruction? It surprisingly a more human story.

That is not what I meant by 'apocalyptic'...the way you are using it, here. The inevitability of archenmity is what should be apocalyptic, ..as with Batman and the Joker, in DKR. It should be, as if the world can burn and shake apart around them, ..and they'll still be fighting. It should feel, as if it had to be them, all along, ..almost like a romance. They must fight and destroy each other, and nothing else matters! They will fight, until their charred flesh literally falls off their bones - archenmity, dude.

Anything else is a drinking buddy.

You have some marvelous ideas. We need to see those in a story, though, ..and we haven't seen them fleshed out enough, to matter much. We totally should have read that story, by now.

Your constant editing is making it hard to respond lol.

So, you just want a "what if Ares won" basically. Which really just means an empty, soundless, dead void of a universe. The whole death of all life in the universe caused by a massive universal war that ultimately means the death of most if not all gods because no one is left to worship them, including Ares?

Yes..."what if Ares won?" That's the whole point! What great destruction does Ares have aimed, right at us, if Wonder Woman doesn't jump in the way, at the last minute - trumpets blaring - to punch it, straight to Hell and save the world?! Make of it, what you will, but, it's not clear what exactly the threat of Ares is, and it's never been made clear to us, ..since World War II, which (being fair) wrote itself. It's certainly not clear, the way it is, with Darkseid.

And it's embarrassing, frankly - that you can drop Darkseid into the WW comic, and one story with him is more entertaining, than seven decades, with Ares/Mars. Yes, that's just my opinion.

It's just my opinion that, looking at the decades-long battles between Spider-Man and Green Goblin ..and Thor against Loki, how is it we don't have one truly great Cheetah story, by now? Seriously? That doesn't make sense - not for a superhero comics icon, like Wonder Woman. That's also just my stinky, little opinion. Mutter, mumble, mumble...

I think there are some super-villain gems, out there - Strife, Tynion's Circe, Queen of Fables, Myrina Black, Queen Clea, Doctor Cyber, Superwoman, Ares-powered Silver Swan, Doctor Psycho, the Adjudicator. Cheetah could be one of them, ..with work. Why does typing that make me so evil? It's totally the truth, and I think we deserve better, than what we've seen of Cheetah, so far.

For me, WW84 was the water-shed. Lets file Cheetah, as a 'b' or c-lister, and move on.

[HestiasHearth]

It's just asking a simple question...you know?

Like what's the worst thing that could happen to us - Wonder Woman left her island to protect us - if Cheetah wins? Big kitty litter shortage? Hide all the YARN and knit sweaters, cuz here comes trouble! What's Cheetah threatening that's so important to Wonder Woman's reason for doing what she does?

Well, what's the worst thing that could happen to us if Joker wins? Clown make-up shortage? Hide all the clown costumes and green hair dye , cuz here comes trouble! An increase in crime in family households that hire Joker as a clown for their kids' birthday parties?
Any character could be reduced to ridiculous motives and ridiculously reductive soundbites.
Sometimes, comic book characters' (or fictional characters in general) validity and appeal does not depend on some absurdly "grand," "profound," and "earth-shattering" motivation or backstory.

I refuse to undermine Wonder Woman villains with posts claiming that their inherent worth as characters is linked to some "important" and "complex" dynamic related to their enemy...

Oftentimes, the fun is in just seeing good ole fashioned good v evil narratives, unencumbered by overcomplicated, overwrought backstories. It's not that deep (or doesn't have to be)...

[Psy-lock]

Well, what's the worst thing that could happen to us if Joker wins? Clown make-up shortage? Hide all the clown costumes and green hair dye , cuz here comes trouble! An increase in crime in family households that hire Joker as a clown for their kids' birthday parties?
Any character could be reduced to ridiculous motives and ridiculously reductive soundbites.
Sometimes, comic book characters' (or fictional characters in general) validity and appeal does not depend on some absurdly "grand," "profound," and "earth-shattering" motivation or backstory.

I refuse to undermine Wonder Woman villains with posts claiming that their inherent worth as characters is linked to some "important" and "complex" dynamic related to their enemy...

Oftentimes, the fun is in just seeing good ole fashioned good v evil narratives, unencumbered by overcomplicated, overwrought backstories. It's not that deep (or doesn't have to be)...

This. Cheetah has all the makings of a good arch-enemy. She’s been let down by poor writing and sexism, but there's nothing inherently wrong with her as a villain.

[Agent Z]

What's the worst that happens to all of us - again, Diana's here to protect us - if Ares wins everything. We've never read that story

Yes we have. We've seen it in Perez's run and come close to seeing it in the live-action film. This is a weird question to ask of Ares of all villains. He's probably one of the few villains we have an idea of what will happen if he wins.

[Mel Dyer]

Well, what's the worst thing that could happen to us if Joker wins? Clown make-up shortage? Hide all the clown costumes and green hair dye , cuz here comes trouble! An increase in crime in family households that hire Joker as a clown for their kids' birthday parties?
Any character could be reduced to ridiculous motives and ridiculously reductive soundbites.
Sometimes, comic book characters' (or fictional characters in general) validity and appeal does not depend on some absurdly "grand," "profound," and "earth-shattering" motivation or backstory.

I refuse to undermine Wonder Woman villains with posts claiming that their inherent worth as characters is linked to some "important" and "complex" dynamic related to their enemy...

Oftentimes, the fun is in just seeing good ole fashioned good v evil narratives, unencumbered by overcomplicated, overwrought backstories. It's not that deep (or doesn't have to be)...

Joker-fish for everybody! That's what happens, if he wins, ..and that's scary, as hell.

Defend and deflect all you like; that sort of Cheetah story just hasn't been written, yet. I would love to see it...read it! Don't make me the badguy, for wanting that.

But, no - I'm not going to hold up for Cheetah, out of some unwavering loyalty to my love for Wonder Woman. No, no, no. I don't think the stories are in the box to support Cheetah, as a major WW villain, and if saying that, out in the open, makes me seem hard on poor Wonder Woman...oh well! I think Wonder Woman and her fans deserve better, than what we've seen of Cheetah, since World War II [Since World War II!! That's insane!]. I don't see her, as essential to my enjoyment of Wonder Woman, going forward, ..and I don't think that's being unkind.

Frankly, I think the only salvaging Cheetah is to gut her backstory and remake her or replace her, with an entirely different character. Maybe, a Priscilla Rich or Bar Minerva, from a parallel universe, with a better motivation and on-going narrative, could slip into the WW comic, kill current Cheetah off and dump her into the Sun or something, ..before picking up, with Diana, where she left off. I think Cheet's got to be a totally different character, a fresh canvas, before I would put any confidence, in her being worth anything.

Anyway, I've stated why I think Cheetah is a weak link rogue ..AND why I don't think she's a lost cause.

[Confuzzled]

I think Rucka did a good job with giving Cheetah a tragic backstory and ties to Wondy to kind of make her the Alice to Diana's Batwoman or the Harry Osborn to Diana's Spider-Man. The hero's biggest regret that haunts them forever. So she qualifies as an archenemy in that sense.

Anyways, the main reason she's not given her due is because she's primarily a brawler (with speed being almost an afterthought for most writers) and as I mentioned before, villainous women brawlers are treated like crap across all superhero comics.

[Mel Dyer]

I think Rucka did a good job with giving Cheetah a tragic backstory and ties to Wondy to kind of make her the Alice to Diana's Batwoman or the Harry Osborn to Diana's Spider-Man. The hero's biggest regret that haunts them forever. So she qualifies as an archenemy in that sense.

Anyways, the main reason she's not given her due is because she's primarily a brawler (with speed being almost an afterthought for most writers) and as I mentioned before, villainous women brawlers are treated like crap across all superhero comics.

I love what Greg Rucka did, with Geof Johns's backstory, for Cheetah. I wish some genius writer would do for Cheets, what that first season of Batman TAS did for Poison Ivy.

[phonogram12]

we don't, this is an actual strawman btw.

So is claiming that some are willing to sacrifice physical prowess for characterization. All I'm saying is that making a character interesting should be more important than making them powerful. Otherwise, why should anyone care?

Ok then, make Cheetah "interesting" you seem to think that action and powers aren't that important anyway

Okay, who's strawmanning, now?

What makes or would make Cheetah "interesting"? For the record, nobody is asking Cheetah to be a mindless zombie who just fights people. But pop off, I guess. Part of characterization is seeing what the character can achieve the Bat fam is notable for plenty of accomplishments.

I think the Bat fam is notable for their accomplishments because people want to see them win. Because the writers have concentrated on characterization first. Because the writers have made them care about these characters.

What is Cheetah known for?

That's a good question. And one that I've been wanting people to care about since this discussion first started.

What he says makes no sense. Asking for Cheetah to not be a jobber doesn't mean that people only want her to be a mindlesss fighting machine. What is hard to understand about that?

What is so hard to understand that people actually have to care about the character first to care if she wins?

Some people here act like we should be ok with the idea that a character powered up by a God that fights WW. Can be put down in a random physical fight by an acrobatic honry kleptomaniac with a whip. Without any explanation. But oh wel doesn't matter because the story. yeah action and power levels are part of a story too. And if catwoman is fighting Cheetah. I want an explanation to how she can do so with far weaker stats.

I don't think anyone's saying that at all. What I'm saying is that they haven't done enough with Cheetah on a character level that I care if she loses or not. Once Cheetah gets the kind of characterization that the likes of Ed Brubaker, Darwyn Cooke, and most recently Tini Howard have given Catwoman, than I might be bothered to care. Stats alone don't make for a good story.

[phonogram12]

It's just asking a simple question...you know?

Like what's the worst thing that could happen to us - Wonder Woman left her island to protect us - if Cheetah wins? Big kitty litter shortage? Hide all the YARN and knit sweaters, cuz here comes trouble! What's Cheetah threatening that's so important to Wonder Woman's reason for doing what she does?

I don't understand why this hasn't happened, already. Cheetah or Minerva could be such a marvelously complex super-villain and one demonically focused on Diana's destruction, in some way that threatens the world or has some dreadful consequences.

Think, "If Cheetah wins...?" What? There's no what, with Cheetah.

Furthermore, how does the big what make Wonder Woman uniquely suited, as if god-anointed, to destroy her? That's my problem, with most of Wonder Woman's super-villains. Answering that what takes some editorial consistency - some follow-through - and, on the part of the writer, some imagination. We need a story that has Wonder Woman and her Moriarty, glaring at each other, broken and bloodied, from their sky-shaking battle, over the smoking ruins of the world, ..and I don't see Cheetah in that story. I don't see her in that story, because writers and editors haven't done the narrative work to sell me that ..and make me believe it always had to be Cheetah.

With out that work, Cheetah's just a Mary, Queen of Scots in fuzzy, polkadot, footy pajamas. She's a slumber party girl, bouncing off the walls, on a sugar-high. She's not the inevitable antagonist, glaring at Diana, in the ruins.

I don't think I'm asking for so much. Do you?

That is not what I meant by 'apocalyptic'...the way you are using it, here. The inevitability of archenmity is what should be apocalyptic, ..as with Batman and the Joker, in DKR. It should be, as if the world can burn and shake apart around them, ..and they'll still be fighting. It should feel, as if it had to be them, all along, ..almost like a romance. They must fight and destroy each other, and nothing else matters! They will fight, until their charred flesh literally falls off their bones - archenmity, dude.

Anything else is a drinking buddy.

Yes..."what if Ares won?" That's the whole point! What great destruction does Ares have aimed, right at us, if Wonder Woman doesn't jump in the way, at the last minute - trumpets blaring - to punch it, straight to Hell and save the world?! Make of it, what you will, but, it's not clear what exactly the threat of Ares is, and it's never been made clear to us, ..since World War II, which (being fair) wrote itself. It's certainly not clear, the way it is, with Darkseid.

And it's embarrassing, frankly - that you can drop Darkseid into the WW comic, and one story with him is more entertaining, than seven decades, with Ares/Mars. Yes, that's just my opinion.

It's just my opinion that, looking at the decades-long battles between Spider-Man and Green Goblin ..and Thor against Loki, how is it we don't have one truly great Cheetah story, by now? Seriously? That doesn't make sense - not for a superhero comics icon, like Wonder Woman. That's also just my stinky, little opinion. Mutter, mumble, mumble...

I think there are some super-villain gems, out there - Strife, Tynion's Circe, Queen of Fables, Myrina Black, Queen Clea, Doctor Cyber, Superwoman, Ares-powered Silver Swan, Doctor Psycho, the Adjudicator. Cheetah could be one of them, ..with work. Why does typing that make me so evil? It's totally the truth, and I think we deserve better, than what we've seen of Cheetah, so far.

Exactly. All of this. Give me a reason to care about their rivalry other than the fact that Cheetah appeared on Challenge of the Super Friends.

Defend and deflect all you like; that sort of Cheetah story just hasn't been written, yet. I would love to see it...read it! Don't make me the badguy, for wanting that.

But, no - I'm not going to hold up for Cheetah, out of some unwavering loyalty to my love for Wonder Woman. No, no, no. I don't think the stories are in the box to support Cheetah, as a major WW villain, and if saying that, out in the open, makes me seem hard on poor Wonder Woman...oh well! I think Wonder Woman and her fans deserve better, than what we've seen of Cheetah, since World War II [Since World War II!! That's insane!]. I don't see her, as essential to my enjoyment of Wonder Woman, going forward, ..and I don't think that's being unkind.

Frankly, I think the only salvaging Cheetah is to gut her backstory and remake her or replace her, with an entirely different character. Maybe, a Priscilla Rich or Bar Minerva, from a parallel universe, with a better motivation and on-going narrative, could slip into the WW comic, kill current Cheetah off and dump her into the Sun or something, ..before picking up, with Diana, where she left off. I think Cheet's got to be a totally different character, a fresh canvas, before I would put any confidence, in her being worth anything.

Anyway, I've stated why I think Cheetah is a weak link rogue ..AND why I don't think she's a lost cause.

Yup. Just give me one good Cheetah story to make me care. And I'm not being sarcastic or anything here. Just give me a story that makes me believe that she's a great villain other than "stats." Stats alone don't make for an iconic character. Give me Cheetah's "Kraven's Last Hunt" or Selina's Big Score or Killing Joke or "Born Again."

[WonderLight789]

So is claiming that some are willing to sacrifice physical prowess for characterization. All I'm saying is that making a character interesting should be more important than making them powerful. Otherwise, why should anyone care?



Okay, who's strawmanning, now?



I think the Bat fam is notable for their accomplishments because people want to see them win. Because the writers have concentrated on characterization first. Because the writers have made them care about these characters.



That's a good question. And one that I've been wanting people to care about since this discussion first started.



What is so hard to understand that people actually have to care about the character first to care if she wins?



I don't think anyone's saying that at all. What I'm saying is that they haven't done enough with Cheetah on a character level that I care if she loses or not. Once Cheetah gets the kind of characterization that the likes of Ed Brubaker, Darwyn Cooke, and most recently Tini Howard have given Catwoman, than I might be bothered to care. Stats alone don't make for a good story.

That is a weak excuse. Cheetah has had enough development. Besides, nothing justify poor writing. And having a human physically challenge a God with no explanation is very poor writing. Nobody is going to care about Cheetah either, if she keeps being used as a jobber and a weaklink. I care about that already and many other fans care. We don't need to wait for a ''groundbreaking'' character moment, to call out crummy writing about her portrayal as a punching bag for street levelers.

[Amazon Swordsman]

Exactly. All of this. Give me a reason to care about their rivalry other than the fact that Cheetah appeared on Challenge of the Super Friends.



Yup. Just give me one good Cheetah story to make me care. And I'm not being sarcastic or anything here. Just give me a story that makes me believe that she's a great villain other than "stats." Stats alone don't make for an iconic character. Give me Cheetah's "Kraven's Last Hunt" or Selina's Big Score or Killing Joke or "Born Again."

Well, on some level, stats have to come into play. Cheetah wouldn’t even be a decent adversary if she wasn’t a threat to Diana, or something she cherishes, just putting that out there. I guess my question is, what should be in a story to make you or folks like you care about Cheetah? Can you narrow it down to 3 main points?