Why is Cheetah a weaklink 90% of the time?

[BiteTheBullet]

All this sounds great. That said, I hope the sole purpose of her own editorial office wouldn't only to make sure Cheetah could beat up people. Some nice character development would be great, too.

You always bring up character development like it is the be all to end all.

Is it character development for Wonder Woman when her mostly iconic villain gets routinely jobbed out to the Batfamily? Is it character development for Wonder Woman to job out to Aquaman on land?

Where is this great character development when Wonder Woman or her own villains get so little to no respect in the DC Universe in general?

I am all for a good story that respects the powerset that Wonder Woman and by extension her villains have. I am not all gung ho with Cloonrad like many on this board are, but it seems the last time we got both good stories (characterization) that respected her powers was both times that Rucka wrote the series. Gail Simone was hit or miss with me.

[Amazon Swordsman]

All this sounds great. That said, I hope the sole purpose of her own editorial office wouldn't only to make sure Cheetah could beat up people. Some nice character development would be great, too.

Oh no. Not just for her, but for WW’s entire corner of the universe.

[Perseus]

Ok, I will sit here patiently waiting the next time Cheetah shows up, just to have her get jobbed out in a meh story, only to have this same argument with the same people complaining about character development when said writer of the story didn't really give a rat's butt about it to begin with.

[WonderLight789]

Ok, I will sit here patiently waiting the next time Cheetah shows up, just to have her get jobbed out in a meh story, only to have this same argument with the same people complaining about character development when said writer of the story didn't really give a rat's butt about it to begin with.

Exactly. As it is. Writers don't care about Cheetah's character. They just use her as a jobber and that's it. Yet some people here think that is not a problem. Because she hasn't had a ''memorable'' character arc yet. As if that had anything to do with respecting the basics of a characters power level. This has happened to Diana too by the way. Jobbing to a character below her league. So how come some people here don't see the problem is beyond me.

Also i posted a link. Where the writer of the male Cheetah said that editors weren't ok with having Cheetah fighting superman. Even if she is supposed to have godly powers, magic and fight WW. The fact they made it a male Cheetah is what allowed him to do it. He admited the editors wouldn't allow a female doing that. But the editors never bat an eye when batman one punch Cheetah, Or Circe, or WW etc. So sexism is once again proving to be a factor in all of this. The writer of catwoman hunted didn't care about WW and her lore. He only wanted a catfight. Where the more sexual and popular cat wins. Sigh.

[WonderLight789]

Well, while I'm not a fan myself, George Perez's initial reboot did make a rather substantial impact. Greg Rucka did as well (with both runs), but to a lesser extent. And I've personally really enjoyed Spirit of Truth and the WW Earth One books.



That I can agree with. And I do agree that that needs to be fixed. I just don't think it can just be fixed by upping who can beat up whom.



I guess what I'm saying is that I don't necessarily have the kind of imagination that some of the most renowned comic book writers out there have. Like with most of the most iconic stories, though, people know them when they see them.



As you should. And I'm glad you want those stories from her as well as opposed to just simple beat 'em ups.



Actually, I don't really consider it my problem as I really don't care for Cheetah because nothing really substantial has been done with her. Nothing about her characterization of her rivalry with Diana has given me reason to.



Now this sounds like something that's your problem since that seems to be the only thing you ever really post around here.

Oh i do care about it. You say it shouldn't matter because Cheetah doesn't have a memorable story yet. What kind of logic is that? Cheetah is supposed to be a powered up God like avatar that fights WW. She shouldn't be struggling with a human in a physical fight. Having a memorable story arc or not doesn't change that fact.

[Perseus]

So is claiming that some are willing to sacrifice physical prowess for characterization. All I'm saying is that making a character interesting should be more important than making them powerful. Otherwise, why should anyone care?

Okay, who's strawmanning, now?

I think the Bat fam is notable for their accomplishments because people want to see them win. Because the writers have concentrated on characterization first. Because the writers have made them care about these characters.

That's a good question. And one that I've been wanting people to care about since this discussion first started.

What is so hard to understand that people actually have to care about the character first to care if she wins?

I don't think anyone's saying that at all. What I'm saying is that they haven't done enough with Cheetah on a character level that I care if she loses or not. Once Cheetah gets the kind of characterization that the likes of Ed Brubaker, Darwyn Cooke, and most recently Tini Howard have given Catwoman, than I might be bothered to care. Stats alone don't make for a good story.

Well, I really regret to inform you that Diana and everyone in her mythos are usually treated as stomping grounds for other characters like recently presented. I regret to inform you that for a very long time DC has given 0 cares in the world about the wondermythos, and it suddenly doesn't change overnight. You want to care about Cheetah, that's fine. You want ONE really good Cheetah story, agreed. I think we can ALL agree that both characterization and powerlevels are important.

Here is my question to you. What makes villains interesting? What makes us care about them?

I would argue that a major part of that is threat level. Is Cheetah dangerous? I mean to Wonder Woman specifically, sure, outside though? The comics, movies, and shows would say she is. And we could all pull out scans to show Cheetah tagging flash or cutting up Wonder Woman to prove that. However, is that public perception? I don't think so. If it was, we wouldn't have Cheetah vs Batman/Catwoman/Green Arrow as a scene or movie or comic panel.

Del Myer is right, and I thank him for thinking I have some good ideas. But, you keep throwing out this word of "characterization" and seem to ignore critical aspects of it. Lex is dangerous. Joker is dangerous. We've seen what they are capable of doing, because multiple different writers allow them to show off what they are capable of. Cheetah..... not really, no, no she gets shot by random gun men, and KOed by Batman and gets to fight catwoman. Because outside the Wonder mythos, she ain't anything. And none of that has to do with her not having a "Killing Joke"

[Rightoya]

So is claiming that some are willing to sacrifice physical prowess for characterization. All I'm saying is that making a character interesting should be more important than making them powerful. Otherwise, why should anyone care?

I have read this very often already, typically as a justification for all the silly things DC and WB do so often with Wonder Woman or her villains, but i have never found any story where i truly saw this, on the contrary most stories where Wonder Woman was especially weak were even terrible and/or boring and just look at how DC has even managed to make Wonder Woman and Aquaman both just look bad and like incompetent morons in multiple of their half-assed attempt to use her to make him look stronger than before. So where can i even find examples of this trade-off, and why should Wonder Woman even have a writer who lacks the ability to have good characterization or a good story without the need to turn Wonder Woman or her villains into something they shouldn't be?

[WonderLight789]

I have read this very often already, typically as a justification for all the silly things DC and WB do so often with Wonder Woman or her villains, but i have never found any story where i truly saw this, on the contrary most stories where Wonder Woman was especially weak were terrible and/or boring to be honest. So where can i find examples, and why should Wonder Woman even have a writer who lacks the abilitys to have good characterization or a good story without the need to turn Wonder Woman or her villains into something they shouldn't be?

And let's face it. Wonder Woman already proved her worth yet again. By giving DC and WB their most acclaimed film yet and at the time, their biggest comercial hit in the DCEU. 5 years later. WW and her lore still get treated like trash. So the excuse of ''create memorable stories, character development'' first has proven to be false 100%. WW label just doesn't care to put the effort. And sexis, as i have shown is also a factor. Did you see the link i posted BTW? It says a lot about how things were with comics, and how little things have changed since then.

[Alpha]

Oh i do care about it. You say it shouldn't matter because Cheetah doesn't have a memorable story yet. What kind of logic is that? Cheetah is supposed to be a powered up God like avatar that fights WW. She shouldn't be struggling with a human in a physical fight. Having a memorable story arc or not doesn't change that fact.

I ask again, when was Cheetah called "god like"?

[Mel Dyer]

I ask again, when was Cheetah called "god like"?

I missed that one, too.

[Confuzzled]

I ask again, when was Cheetah called "god like"?

Isn't it implied if she's supposed to be a physical threat to a literal demi-goddess?

[Alpha]

Isn't it implied if she's supposed to be a physical threat to a literal demi-goddess?

Plenty of other villains have fought Wonder Woman without ever being called godlike. Heck, would you call Blockbuster godlike?

[WonderLight789]

Plenty of other villains have fought Wonder Woman without ever being called godlike. Heck, would you call Blockbuster godlike?

She is sated to be powered up by a God and magic.

[Primal Slayer]

Isn't it implied if she's supposed to be a physical threat to a literal demi-goddess?

Silver Swan supposed to be godlike? And Medusa?

[WonderLight789]

Silver Swan supposed to be godlike? And Medusa?

The Silver Swan that is powered up by Ares is just like Cheetah being powered up by another God. Any reason why you think that characters powered up by Gods, that apparentyly can fight WW. Should be challenged physically by a human? Then again. WW herself just got easily damaged by the hit from a regular human in dc vs vampires. So obviously we have yet again, another example of how highly DC writers think of her.