Every team that Lebron has ever been on VS Kobe/Shaq Lakers

[Kuro]

Lebron from the current and previous eras takes on what is considered one of the most successful team ups in the league's history.

Who wins?

Cavs, Heat, Lakers teammates at the time are present in each scenario with him.

Please be respectful as always

[big_adventure]

Lebron from the current and previous eras takes on what is considered one of the most successful team ups in the league's history.

Who wins?

Cavs, Heat, Lakers teammates at the time are present in each scenario with him.

Please be respectful as always

2nd or 3rd year Heat team would win the large majority - there was so much bitterness towards them that it can be hard to remember just how freaking good they were. 27 straight wins, 4 straight finals, 3 first-ballot hall of famers (one of which is short-list for GOAT and another has a decent argument for being as good as Kobe albeit over a somewhat shorter timeframe and with a body that let him down more often), hall of fame coach and exec - they had it all. Lakers 19/20 team would take some as long as they stayed healthy. His Cavs teams would be in trouble.

Shaq personally, and to a lesser extent those Lakers (and it was definitely Shaq/Kobe, not Kobe/Shaq - the Big Aristotle was the beast) would have some issues with modern teams with modern coaching. They predated "rim or 3" thinking, and that thinking is much more efficient than "string of mid-rangers." Shaq would, as always, be hard to stop, but he'd be absolutely hopeless on defense against a team that can spread it out, and teams will exchange 2 for 3 all the livelong day. He'd also get somewhat denied the ball by LeBron, DWade and Bosh. Pick and roll? Please, Kobe didn't "pass" except by accident at that time, and the Heat were legendary good against PnR play. Shaq'd get his to some extent, obviously, but he'd get tired, frustrated, angry, and then just fouled until the end of time near the end of games. Heat don't care about the center position on the court, so the'd have a mountain of fouls to give.

[frankiedetroit]

This is a great matchup.

Joining LeBron in the starting five: Dwyane Wade, Anthony Davis, Kyrie Irving, old Shaquille O'Neal.
Seven guys off the bench: Chris Bosh, Brandon Ingram, Dwight Howard, Anderson Varejao, Ray Allen, Kyle Korver, Russell Westbrook

Joining young Shaq and Kobe in the starting five: Gary Payton, Glen Rice, Karl Malone
Seven guys off the bench: Ron Harper, Robert Horry, Eddie Jones, Elden Campbell, Nick Van Exel, Derek Fisher, Cedric Ceballos

It was tougher getting S&K Lakers. I left Carmelo Anthony out of LeBron's top 12, after all. The Mitch Richmond who played with S&K wasn't the one you'd choose. Same with Jerome Kersey, Dennis Rodman, Byron Scott, A.C. Green and Horace Grant. And too bad Pau Gasol didn't come till later cuz he was about the best PF the Lakers have ever had.

I'm a diehard Lakers fan. So will choose LBJ's squad as long as it's mostly the current Lakers doing damage. The 96-04 Lakers didn't have the gunners that more recent LBJ teams have.

[frankiedetroit]

Shaq personally, and to a lesser extent those Lakers (and it was definitely Shaq/Kobe, not Kobe/Shaq - the Big Aristotle was the beast) would have some issues with modern teams with modern coaching. They predated "rim or 3" thinking, and that thinking is much more efficient than "string of mid-rangers." Shaq would, as always, be hard to stop, but he'd be absolutely hopeless on defense against a team that can spread it out, and teams will exchange 2 for 3 all the livelong day. He'd also get somewhat denied the ball by LeBron, DWade and Bosh. Pick and roll? Please, Kobe didn't "pass" except by accident at that time, and the Heat were legendary good against PnR play. Shaq'd get his to some extent, obviously, but he'd get tired, frustrated, angry, and then just fouled until the end of time near the end of games. Heat don't care about the center position on the court, so the'd have a mountain of fouls to give.

Agree with this assessment. If it's team vs. team, rather than All-Star lineups, I'd go with the Big Three Heat.

[Little_Mac]

This is a great matchup.

Joining LeBron in the starting five: Dwyane Wade, Anthony Davis, Kyrie Irving, old Shaquille O'Neal.
Seven guys off the bench: Chris Bosh, Brandon Ingram, Dwight Howard, Anderson Varejao, Ray Allen, Kyle Korver, Russell Westbrook

Joining young Shaq and Kobe in the starting five: Gary Payton, Glen Rice, Karl Malone
Seven guys off the bench: Ron Harper, Robert Horry, Eddie Jones, Elden Campbell, Nick Van Exel, Derek Fisher, Cedric Ceballos

It was tougher getting S&K Lakers. I left Carmelo Anthony out of LeBron's top 12, after all. The Mitch Richmond who played with S&K wasn't the one you'd choose. Same with Jerome Kersey, Dennis Rodman, Byron Scott, A.C. Green and Horace Grant. And too bad Pau Gasol didn't come till later cuz he was about the best PF the Lakers have ever had.

I'm a diehard Lakers fan. So will choose LBJ's squad as long as it's mostly the current Lakers doing damage. The 96-04 Lakers didn't have the gunners that more recent LBJ teams have.

For Lebron's team, let's take old Shaq out of the starting lineup. He's not really usefully in that lineup and Chris Bosh is a much better fit in that startup lineup. Much better spacing, shooting and defense. You aren't overpowering the Kobe/Shaq team so go with speed and shooting.

Speaking of the bench, O'Neal and Howard goes for Love & Big Z (Outside spacing). Ingram had a decent season, but Mo Williams made the all-star team with LeBron. If you want an irrational confidence guy on a Lebron team, it's J.R. Smith, not Russell Westbrook.

I agree that the LeBron teams win and the reason why. But LeBron's teammates in Cleveland and Miami are a bit underrated (compared to his Lakers teams).

[frankiedetroit]

For Lebron's team, let's take old Shaq out of the starting lineup. He's not really usefully in that lineup and Chris Bosh is a much better fit in that startup lineup. Much better spacing, shooting and defense. You aren't overpowering the Kobe/Shaq team so go with speed and shooting.

Speaking of the bench, O'Neal and Howard goes for Love & Big Z (Outside spacing). Ingram had a decent season, but Mo Williams made the all-star team with LeBron. If you want an irrational confidence guy on a Lebron team, it's J.R. Smith, not Russell Westbrook.

I agree that the LeBron teams win and the reason why. But LeBron's teammates in Cleveland and Miami are a bit underrated (compared to his Lakers teams).

Yikes -- I forgot about Kevin Love. He's definitely on the squad. Russ is one of my favorite players (though not a good fit just about anywhere -- has a former MVP who wasn't injured ever fallen like this so quickly?)

[big_adventure]

Yikes -- I forgot about Kevin Love. He's definitely on the squad. Russ is one of my favorite players (though not a good fit just about anywhere -- has a former MVP who wasn't injured ever fallen like this so quickly?)

He may have deserved the MVP in one year with weak candidates (down years in games and minutes for LBJ, Steph, KD), when voters had years of LeBron fatigue and when he was simply better than horrible shooting. It kind of came down to Russ versus Harden. Harden is generally a better offensive player, but Russ is, by virtue of not being an embarrassement, a significantly better defender than Harden. Russ is a conscience-free gunner and stat-hauler that just doesn't work on almost any team in the modern game. Only LBJ might have a claim at being more athletic, but Russ thinks that stuffing a box score is the same as playing winning basketball. It's not.

[Little_Mac]

He may have deserved the MVP in one year with weak candidates (down years in games and minutes for LBJ, Steph, KD), when voters had years of LeBron fatigue and when he was simply better than horrible shooting. It kind of came down to Russ versus Harden. Harden is generally a better offensive player, but Russ is, by virtue of not being an embarrassement, a significantly better defender than Harden. Russ is a conscience-free gunner and stat-hauler that just doesn't work on almost any team in the modern game. Only LBJ might have a claim at being more athletic, but Russ thinks that stuffing a box score is the same as playing winning basketball. It's not.

If you want Billy Donovan's biggest fault, it's that he had Harden, Westbrook and Durant (with Steven Adams as enforcer) and NEVER win the championship. Also, how did Harden and Westbrook become so bad a defender?

Westbrook is like Allen Iverson/Derrick Rose/Dwight Howard/Blake Griffin/Carmelo Anthony. They couldn't afford to lose that extra bit of athleticism they had. They turned from elite NBA player to journeyman very quickly. Some of them eventually were able to reinvent their games and stay in the league. Other couldn't do it. Russell lost a step and the rest of the NBA noticed it. They just challenged him to shoot and play the percentages. Russell is paid like a superstar and still thinks he is a superstar. Alas, time catches the best of players.

[frankiedetroit]

If you want Billy Donovan's biggest fault, it's that he had Harden, Westbrook and Durant (with Steven Adams as enforcer) and NEVER win the championship. Also, how did Harden and Westbrook become so bad a defender?

I don't think it's so bad cuz those three were only together for three years. They went to the playoffs the first year, lost in the Conference Finals the next and lost in the Finals the next. Then Harden was gone. They were like the Shaq/Penny Magic -- burned bright, neared the precipice and then it was over.

Westbrook is like Allen Iverson/Derrick Rose/Dwight Howard/Blake Griffin/Carmelo Anthony. They couldn't afford to lose that extra bit of athleticism they had. They turned from elite NBA player to journeyman very quickly. Some of them eventually were able to reinvent their games and stay in the league. Other couldn't do it. Russell lost a step and the rest of the NBA noticed it. They just challenged him to shoot and play the percentages. Russell is paid like a superstar and still thinks he is a superstar. Alas, time catches the best of players.

Good point about Russ and his athleticism. Seems like he's still an incredible athlete, it's just that, as you say, once the league discovered he couldn't shoot from the outside, his value waned dramatically. He seems to have lost his confidence, as evidenced by his free-throw shooting, which used to be over 80% but has been below 70% since he won MVP.

[Hiromi]

This is a great matchup.

Joining LeBron in the starting five: Dwyane Wade, Anthony Davis, Kyrie Irving, old Shaquille O'Neal.
Seven guys off the bench: Chris Bosh, Brandon Ingram, Dwight Howard, Anderson Varejao, Ray Allen, Kyle Korver, Russell Westbrook

Joining young Shaq and Kobe in the starting five: Gary Payton, Glen Rice, Karl Malone
Seven guys off the bench: Ron Harper, Robert Horry, Eddie Jones, Elden Campbell, Nick Van Exel, Derek Fisher, Cedric Ceballos

It was tougher getting S&K Lakers. I left Carmelo Anthony out of LeBron's top 12, after all. The Mitch Richmond who played with S&K wasn't the one you'd choose. Same with Jerome Kersey, Dennis Rodman, Byron Scott, A.C. Green and Horace Grant. And too bad Pau Gasol didn't come till later cuz he was about the best PF the Lakers have ever had.

I'm a diehard Lakers fan. So will choose LBJ's squad as long as it's mostly the current Lakers doing damage. The 96-04 Lakers didn't have the gunners that more recent LBJ teams have.

Bosh or Love would be starting over old Shaq, 2009-10 Shaq would struggle to make to make the bench over Ilgauskas or Mozgov, he was well into "should have already retired" territory by that point. But yeah I think Lebron's team takes this pretty handedly, the NBA's game plan has really evolved since the 2000s Lakers and Prime Lebron was basically the embodiment of it, we saw that Kobe's style of play(high volume of low efficiency mid range shooting) wasn't able to transition with it very well in the late 2000s into the 2010s and the paint dominant center is all but extinct. Shaq would be useless trying to guard Bosh/Davis/Love from the perimeter and while he'd score plenty he'd also probably get in foul trouble and/or get hacked to death

Yikes -- I forgot about Kevin Love. He's definitely on the squad. Russ is one of my favorite players (though not a good fit just about anywhere -- has a former MVP who wasn't injured ever fallen like this so quickly?)

Westbrook's game is entirely dependent on his physicality, he's never been a good shooter, doesn't have good hands, is bad/lazy on defense, and has always been just as prolific in turnovers as any other stat. As good of a solo player as he is I don't think he's ever really been that good as a complimentary player with other stars(he's never been a good off ball player) and now that he's on the wrong side of 30 it doesn't really surprise me to see this. The League's had over a decade to realize that for as amazing athletically he's really easy to game plan for, you crowd the interior and dare him to shoot from outside(which he loves to do for some reason despite his never having shot above .343 from 3 and having shot below .300 in 8 seasons) and accept that he'll get his fast break points because he'll probably give them back to you in turnovers over the course of the game. He's even turned into a bad free throw shoot in the last five years(which is absolutely inexcusable for a guard) so you're not even afraid to foul him anymore. So yeah, he's undoubtedly a first round hall of famer but at this point I question if he's even a starter on most playoff teams and I can't understand why so many supposed contenders keep falling into the same trap with him year after year.

[big_adventure]

Bosh or Love would be starting over old Shaq, 2009-10 Shaq would struggle to make to make the bench over Ilgauskas or Mozgov, he was well into "should have already retired" territory by that point. But yeah I think Lebron's team takes this pretty handedly, the NBA's game plan has really evolved since the 2000s Lakers and Prime Lebron was basically the embodiment of it, we saw that Kobe's style of play(high volume of low efficiency mid range shooting) wasn't able to transition with it very well in the late 2000s into the 2010s and the paint dominant center is all but extinct. Shaq would be useless trying to guard Bosh/Davis/Love from the perimeter and while he'd score plenty he'd also probably get in foul trouble and/or get hacked to death



Westbrook's game is entirely dependent on his physicality, he's never been a good shooter, doesn't have good hands, is bad/lazy on defense, and has always been just as prolific in turnovers as any other stat. As good of a solo player as he is I don't think he's ever really been that good as a complimentary player with other stars(he's never been a good off ball player) and now that he's on the wrong side of 30 it doesn't really surprise me to see this. The League's had over a decade to realize that for as amazing athletically he's really easy to game plan for, you crowd the interior and dare him to shoot from outside(which he loves to do for some reason despite his never having shot above .343 from 3 and having shot below .300 in 8 seasons) and accept that he'll get his fast break points because he'll probably give them back to you in turnovers over the course of the game. He's even turned into a bad free throw shoot in the last five years(which is absolutely inexcusable for a guard) so you're not even afraid to foul him anymore. So yeah, he's undoubtedly a first round hall of famer but at this point I question if he's even a starter on most playoff teams and I can't understand why so many supposed contenders keep falling into the same trap with him year after year.

I agree 98% with your assessment of Russ, except for one thing - I don't even know if he's a first-ballot HoF guy. It's really going to depend on what happens over the rest of his career. He's probably the second or third most physically ridiculous player in history, after LeBron and perhaps Wilt, but he's got zero titles, a somewhat dubious MVP, none of the "natural born winner" goodness that follows some people around, and has often been a bit prickly in his interactions. If he retired today, and the election was in 2 years because, I don't know, reasons, sure, maybe. But he's likely to stick around for 5 more years at the very least, and in the NBA, you only make first ballot HoF with a bucket of titles or if you are beloved for other reasons. Give him five years of decline, if he doesn't wind up getting a veterans minimum chip somewhere, then the waiting period, and you can see people falling hard on his incompatibility with winning basketball more than his stratospheric physical talent. We'll see. He deserves it, as any MVP with a great and long career does, but... man there are a lot of very deep holes in his resumé.

[Hiromi]

He's a sure thing first balloter, he's an mvp, two time scoring champ, 9 time all star etc, but more than anything he averaged a triple double over a full season four times. And while I think those stats were inflated and ultimately don't translate into post season success he's still only the second player to ever do it and the only player to do it more than once, those kinds of things are HoF guarenteers, Basically he'll go in the same way Steve Nash did, by doing something historic numberswise(Nash mostly went in for being the most consistent 50/40/90 guy ever)

[big_adventure]

He's a sure thing first balloter, he's an mvp, two time scoring champ, 9 time all star etc, but more than anything he averaged a triple double over a full season four times. And while I think those stats were inflated and ultimately don't translate into post season success he's still only the second player to ever do it and the only player to do it more than once, those kinds of things are HoF guarenteers, Basically he'll go in the same way Steve Nash did, by doing something historic numberswise(Nash mostly went in for being the most consistent 50/40/90 guy ever)

I agree with you that it's likely, but we'll see what happens over the rest of his career. Also, of course, it will depend on who's up for election at the same time. If he's up at the same time Harden and/or Durant are...

Nash was the worst MVP choice in history not named Rose, and he won two of them. Being charitable, one could say that he won because people didn't want to give it to Shaq due to fatigue, Duncan due to boredom, or the new kid from Akron due to youth. Voters also like the little guy - Nash looked like your mailman, not an All NBA player. Being uncharitable, there might have been a teensy bit of something else involved on top of those factors. OTOH, the guy was generally beloved as a teammate, a competitor and a person. Russ is respected for... maybe half of one of those things? He's a selfish, arrogant, entitled man-child who plays his teams out of contention more often then he helps them win.

Putting it another way: you are almost likely to win a title if LeBron or Jordan is your best player. You can definitely win a title with Durant (another dude I do not like, but damn he's sublime on the court) or Wade or Kobe or Duncan or Shaq are your best player. If Russ is your best player, you need to plan for the Lottery.