Was it a mistake for Star Wars to be part of Disney?

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

So far I'm enjoying the star wars content outside of the Skywalker saga like Andor and The High Republic. Fallen Order is a bit weaker than those two but I'm still excited for its sequel.

I'm fine with it.

I don't imagine people would've enjoyed Lucas's sequel trilogy given how poor the reception for the prequels.

I dislike that they got rid of the Expanded Universe but I understand why. I would've preferred them jumping ahead to a post Legacy era instead.

[Timothy Hunter]

I think the Expanded Universe would've been in a really dire state if Disney didn't purchase Lucasfilm. Filoni's Clone Wars was wrecking havoc on the Prequel era continuity and the Legacy era novels are near universally hated to this day. If Lucasfilm didn't outright reboot the EU, we probably would've had a situation similar to how DC Comics is now where no one has any idea about what is or isn't canon, and everything's just a ginormous mess.

Speaking as someone who actually prefers the Expanded Universe to the Star Wars movies, I think it was necessary for the EU to take a break so Lucasfilm could course correct. Unfortunately that never happened.

[Tobei Miyake]

I don't imagine people would've enjoyed Lucas's sequel trilogy given how poor the reception for the prequels.

George Lucas himself said a lot of the fans would have hated it.

Star Wars: George Lucas’ Original Plans Doubled Down on Midi-Chlorians

In a 2018 interview with James Cameron, for the six-part AMC series James Cameron’s Story of Science Fiction, Lucas revealed midi-chlorians weren’t alone in the microbiology of Force-sensitive individuals – there were also the Whills, the physical representations of the Force.

“The Whills,” Lucas explained, “are the ones who actually control the universe. They feed off the Force.” Lifeforms, meanwhile, be they Jedi or Sith, or bounty hunters or mechanics, are simply “vehicles for the Whills to travel around in. ... And the conduit is the midi-chlorians. The midi-chlorians are the ones that communicate with the Whills. The Whills, in a general sense, they are the Force.”

Even crazier, Lucas promised that the next three films – i.e. the current trilogy, concluding in December with The Rise of Skywalker – “were going to get into a microbiotic world,” had he not sold Lucasfilm to Disney in 2012. Whether this was going to involve science lectures or actually visiting the organisms, Fantastic Voyage-style, is unknown.

Either way, Lucas confessed, “A lot of the fans would have hated it.”

I probably would have liked it, because I thought Midi-Chlorians was kind of a cool idea. But I could easily see it not being liked by many.

The issue with Star Wars is that I'm not sure there is a story going forward after Return of the Jedi. Because I don't know if you can get bigger and better than Darth Vader.

[godisawesome]

I think the Expanded Universe would've been in a really dire state if Disney didn't purchase Lucasfilm. Filoni's Clone Wars was wrecking havoc on the Prequel era continuity and the Legacy era novels are near universally hated to this day. If Lucasfilm didn't outright reboot the EU, we probably would've had a situation similar to how DC Comics is now where no one has any idea about what is or isn't canon, and everything's just a ginormous mess.

Speaking as someone who actually prefers the Expanded Universe to the Star Wars movies, I think it was necessary for the EU to take a break so Lucasfilm could course correct. Unfortunately that never happened.

Yeah, the decision to dump the old Legends canon was the right one - though a wise Disney-era LFL would have looked over the Legends stuff for what seemed like the most creative and profitable assets much sooner than they actually did. Now that Filoni *is* doing that as a matter of course, it’s a lot more consistently engaging and interesting.

When TFA came out, I thought they were sort of doing that by noting that an evil Solo kid was a profitable concept for a villain when removed from Legacy of the Force’s crappy execution, and that they’d likely follow through by noting that a heroic Skywalker girl would be the best idea for a counterweight, based off the huge success of Jaina Solo and other Skywalker/Solo character going forward alongside the profitability and fun of a Mara Jade character.

Instead, it turns out they both weren’t doing that and were also about to hire their own version of Karen Traviss for the second film: a generally great storyteller who unfortunately has contempt and disdain for significant parts of Star Wars and an inability to work well with other creators. Which is why, as bad as Legends got, it was still preferable to have the family story not ended in a dead end, and why I struggle to think of anything in Legends as bad as Reylo.

Luckily, even early on into the Rebels era, they had Filoni being smarter about using Legends material as inspiration with the Inquisitors and a more varied Mandalroian culture.

George Lucas himself said a lot of the fans would have hated it.



I probably would have liked it, because I thought Midi-Chlorians was kind of a cool idea. But I could easily see it not being liked by many.

The issue with Star Wars is that I'm not sure there is a story going forward after Return of the Jedi. Because I don't know if you can get bigger and better than Darth Vader.

I think there was actually a pretty simple answer to that, and one that both Rey Skywalker theorists and even the Reylo fans realized - just make a bunch of adventure stories with the Skywalker Family Soap Opera still going on, and where a new member being a dark sider gives you some chance to tackle Vader’s legacy and *maybe* execute the new guy’s story better than George did in the PT.

The problem? While Rey Skywalker fans rather sensibly figured that meant giving her her own stake in the family story and developing Kylo as a greater villain than Vader in some ways, and that regardless the end goal should be to have the family survive on for future stories or at least for a happy ending, there was already a cadre Reylo fans at LFL determined to make the story about Kylo, and thus inadvertently doom the family in a loathsomely pathetic ending.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

George Lucas himself said a lot of the fans would have hated it.



I probably would have liked it, because I thought Midi-Chlorians was kind of a cool idea. But I could easily see it not being liked by many.

The issue with Star Wars is that I'm not sure there is a story going forward after Return of the Jedi. Because I don't know if you can get bigger and better than Darth Vader.

I disagree because I liked alot of the prequel villians. You don't need to go bigger, you just need to be different or unique. That's something Disney lacks with its inquistors but Andor picked up the slack.

[ChrisIII]

The prequel villains sort of kind of reflected Vader in a few ways-Maul=Sith Lord, Dooku=Fallen Jedi, Grevious=Cyborg etc.


Dooku's general personality and sense of humor kind of was Vader-esque at points as well.

[Timothy Hunter]

Yeah, the decision to dump the old Legends canon was the right one - though a wise Disney-era LFL would have looked over the Legends stuff for what seemed like the most creative and profitable assets much sooner than they actually did. Now that Filoni *is* doing that as a matter of course, it’s a lot more consistently engaging and interesting.

When TFA came out, I thought they were sort of doing that by noting that an evil Solo kid was a profitable concept for a villain when removed from Legacy of the Force’s crappy execution, and that they’d likely follow through by noting that a heroic Skywalker girl would be the best idea for a counterweight, based off the huge success of Jaina Solo and other Skywalker/Solo character going forward alongside the profitability and fun of a Mara Jade character.

Instead, it turns out they both weren’t doing that and were also about to hire their own version of Karen Traviss for the second film: a generally great storyteller who unfortunately has contempt and disdain for significant parts of Star Wars and an inability to work well with other creators. Which is why, as bad as Legends got, it was still preferable to have the family story not ended in a dead end, and why I struggle to think of anything in Legends as bad as Reylo.

Luckily, even early on into the Rebels era, they had Filoni being smarter about using Legends material as inspiration with the Inquisitors and a more varied Mandalroian culture.



I think there was actually a pretty simple answer to that, and one that both Rey Skywalker theorists and even the Reylo fans realized - just make a bunch of adventure stories with the Skywalker Family Soap Opera still going on, and where a new member being a dark sider gives you some chance to tackle Vader’s legacy and *maybe* execute the new guy’s story better than George did in the PT.

The problem? While Rey Skywalker fans rather sensibly figured that meant giving her her own stake in the family story and developing Kylo as a greater villain than Vader in some ways, and that regardless the end goal should be to have the family survive on for future stories or at least for a happy ending, there was already a cadre Reylo fans at LFL determined to make the story about Kylo, and thus inadvertently doom the family in a loathsomely pathetic ending.

I think I misspoke. I wasn't vouching for the permanent discontinuation of Legends, I was arguing that the EU should've taken a temporary break and then relaunch into a smaller, more tightly controlled line of books and comics much like Marvel's Ultimate universe.

As someone who only cares about the Legends continuity I have no interest in the new Canon bringing back aspects of the old Expanded Universe, I just want to see new storiesmull being told in that universe.

[ChrisIII]

EUs tend to get contradicted/discontinued a great deal with many other franchises; I think part of the reason the old Legends continuity lasted so long was the long gaps between the trilogies. But even the prequels and Clone Wars were already kind of chipping away at that foundation long before the sequels. The whole Mandalorian culture mess with the Karen Traviss books for example, the huge amount of Death Star origins and 'stealing the plans' missions that contradicted each other etc.

Some of the oldest reference books even place the Clone Wars as being over by the time of Phantom Menace!

[Timothy Hunter]

EUs tend to get contradicted/discontinued a great deal with many other franchises; I think part of the reason the old Legends continuity lasted so long was the long gaps between the trilogies. But even the prequels and Clone Wars were already kind of chipping away at that foundation long before the sequels. The whole Mandalorian culture mess with the Karen Traviss books for example, the huge amount of Death Star origins and 'stealing the plans' missions that contradicted each other etc.

Some of the oldest reference books even place the Clone Wars as being over by the time of Phantom Menace!

That may be true, but I think that the amount of great stories told in the old Expanded Universe merits it's continued existence.

[Tobei Miyake]

I think there was actually a pretty simple answer to that, and one that both Rey Skywalker theorists and even the Reylo fans realized - just make a bunch of adventure stories with the Skywalker Family Soap Opera still going on, and where a new member being a dark sider gives you some chance to tackle Vader’s legacy and *maybe* execute the new guy’s story better than George did in the PT.

The problem? While Rey Skywalker fans rather sensibly figured that meant giving her her own stake in the family story and developing Kylo as a greater villain than Vader in some ways, and that regardless the end goal should be to have the family survive on for future stories or at least for a happy ending, there was already a cadre Reylo fans at LFL determined to make the story about Kylo, and thus inadvertently doom the family in a loathsomely pathetic ending.

A Skywalker family soap opera is fine and all, but to what end?

What's the story? What are they doing? What's the goal? What's the objective?

That's why I say there may not be a story after Return of the Jedi.

If the fate of the galaxy doesn't hang in the balance, then what are we doing? TV shows about a baby Yoda? (And that's my obligatory dig at The Mandalorian.)

I disagree because I liked alot of the prequel villians. You don't need to go bigger, you just need to be different or unique. That's something Disney lacks with its inquistors but Andor picked up the slack.

I liked the prequels, but the main prequel villain was the same villain as in the original trilogy. And the prequels were just telling the origin of Darth Vader.

And the sequel trilogy didn't go bigger but they did do different. And then they went back to Palpatine.

And Andor I think is the greatest Star Wars ever. But the villains in Andor are obviously the original trilogy villains too.

Star Wars has to move forward, but I don't even think George Lucas had a what comes next idea.

And I guess that's why it's taking them so long to come up with what comes next.

[ChrisIII]

Kind of wonder if the Ashoka series, should it feature Thrawn (and it seems to be that it will) might set up a version of the Grysk, the "Vong-lite" villains from the Disney canon Thrawn novels.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

A Skywalker family soap opera is fine and all, but to what end?

What's the story? What are they doing? What's the goal? What's the objective?

That's why I say there may not be a story after Return of the Jedi.

If the fate of the galaxy doesn't hang in the balance, then what are we doing? TV shows about a baby Yoda? (And that's my obligatory dig at The Mandalorian.)


I liked the prequels, but the main prequel villain was the same villain as in the original trilogy. And the prequels were just telling the origin of Darth Vader.

And the sequel trilogy didn't go bigger but they did do different. And then they went back to Palpatine.

And Andor I think is the greatest Star Wars ever. But the villains in Andor are obviously the original trilogy villains too.

Star Wars has to move forward, but I don't even think George Lucas had a what comes next idea.

And I guess that's why it's taking them so long to come up with what comes next.

I preferred Dooku, Maul, Ventress etc over Palpatine. The sequels need more like them than returning to him.

Although Hux and Plasma are interesting but in the expanded universe entries than the movies.

[ChrisIII]

One of the weird things about TLJ's marketing was that some of it was heavily fixated on Phasma. She had a helmetless appearance on Vanity Fair's cover (Then again VF's SW stuff rarely matches the films) had a limited comic series about how she escaped starkiller and a novel (revealing her backstory) at the same time. Kathleen Kennedy also said the character was going to be big. I was thinking maybe she was kind of going to be like Mace Windu, who had a fairly small role in TPM but got a lot more screen time in AOTC and ROTS.


Then she's only in the film for about five minutes and dies.

[godisawesome]

A Skywalker family soap opera is fine and all, but to what end?

What's the story? What are they doing? What's the goal? What's the objective?

That's why I say there may not be a story after Return of the Jedi.

If the fate of the galaxy doesn't hang in the balance, then what are we doing? TV shows about a baby Yoda? (And that's my obligatory dig at The Mandalorian.)


I liked the prequels, but the main prequel villain was the same villain as in the original trilogy. And the prequels were just telling the origin of Darth Vader.

And the sequel trilogy didn't go bigger but they did do different. And then they went back to Palpatine.

And Andor I think is the greatest Star Wars ever. But the villains in Andor are obviously the original trilogy villains too.

Star Wars has to move forward, but I don't even think George Lucas had a what comes next idea.

And I guess that's why it's taking them so long to come up with what comes next.

Before I start trying to defend some of the ST ideas (both with what happened and what we know of Lucas's ideas), I do sort of want to agree with the second part of your post about needing new villains - and I'd argue that's part of the reason why "Past Sagas" set thousands of years before the the OT were so popular pre-Disney, and are likely to make a comeback. Go back in the past, and you can have Mandalorian warlords as marauding victims, or different, more sorcerous Sith Kingdoms, or a more sincere Republic Civil War, etc. The past is the nearest and dearest friend of LFL creators who want to do something different.

However... I would also argue that the core concept of "One of Darth Vader's grandkids does to the dark side and threatens to erase Anakin's redemption and the heroic legacy of the good kids of the family" answers the "What are they doing? What's the goal? What's the objective?" question. Legacy is a very resonant topic, and the audience has a reason to care about whether or not the fictional family we love has its legacy preserved or consumed (see: All the fans who were pissed at TLJ dooming the family and ruining Luke's legacy... and *also* all the people who loved the ending of TLJ for what it did for Luke's legacy and demanded Ben Solo be the real main character.) In fact, I'd argue that legacy aspect is why there's no interest for ST properties after TROS - the Skywalkers are dead, and no one really likes that. Lucas kind of knew that, which was why his version of the ST also had a Solo kid go wrong; the family legacy being under threat motivates fans to pay attention because of the resonance of the family story.

It's also why I'd argue that Kylo Ren, as he was originally portrayed in TFA, actually had three "layers" behind why he could be a good post-OT threat: 1) he's a formidable and destructive threat tanks to being Vader Without The Suit, 2) he's a threat to the family legacy both metaphorically and literally, and 3) he's basically "Darth Alt-Right." Part of the reason the St went off the rails is because it forgot all of that, and tried making Darth Alt-Right a romantic lead.

I'd also, separately, argue that Andor and The Mandalorian both show that Star Wars has such an epic scale that mere cities and villages under threat can suffice for stakes, while planetary and solar system level threats are still massive enough for huge stakes while still being ignored by the Galaxy at large.

[Tobei Miyake]

It's also why I'd argue that Kylo Ren, as he was originally portrayed in TFA, actually had three "layers" behind why he could be a good post-OT threat: 1) he's a formidable and destructive threat tanks to being Vader Without The Suit, 2) he's a threat to the family legacy both metaphorically and literally, and 3) he's basically "Darth Alt-Right." Part of the reason the St went off the rails is because it forgot all of that, and tried making Darth Alt-Right a romantic lead.

I did love Kylo Ren.

JJ started him off well, I thought. And I am one "those people" who are fans of Rian Johnson and really liked The Last Jedi.

Rian Johnson really didn't give JJ Abrams many other places to go after that though, and so we got what we got.

Going forward, what I would like to see while they figure everything out, is to go all the way back to the beginning.

I want to see an origin of the Jedi movie. Or series of movies.

When Disney took over, maybe that's what they should have done. Or now that the Skywalker Saga is over, maybe it's now what they should do. Reset Star Wars.

Maybe call such a movie "The Jedi."

Or "The Je'daii."

And just do your own thing for 30,000 years. Movies. Disney+ shows. Everything.