Was it a mistake for Star Wars to be part of Disney?

[Somecrazyaussie]

As far as I know, Abrams ok'd Johnson's script and even changed the ending on his request to better match Johnson's visions. So I don't really buy the idea that Kasdan and JJ had some great story arc in mind where somehow everything would have made sense. Although TFA is a competent movie in terms of directing, cinematography and acting, it has the least ambitious and interesting plot of all Star Wars movies. All the supposed 'mystery boxes' were mostly 'meta mysteries' which fans came up by themselves as preceding Star Wars lore had educated them that everything must be always somehow connected to this incredibly inbred core group of characters and bloodlines.

Rey-Poe romance would have made little sense as that's the pairing with the least onscreen chemistry.

I just remember that it was stated in a few articles that rough outlines were being tossed round. As godisawesome pointed out, those were likely "priorities" or "possible guides" for the various threads. In all likelihood these weren't cemented in stone and were flexible enough to be adapted in accordance with the hot potato method they were going for.

Having 3 different directors isn't a bad thing at all. The OT made it work with different directors at the helm of each installment. However the OT had Kasdan in place. So there WAS a sense of cohesion to the narrative. The sequel trilogy didn't have that. TLJ is as 180 degrees to TFA as TRoS is to the TLJ.

As for the Rey/Poe pairing? That was Trevorrow's idea based in the fact that both were pilots. You see a hint of it in TLJ and some of it is still in the first few scenes of TRoS. Mind you, that was when the intention was that Rey was going to be revealed as a childhood friend of Ben who had been sent away when it was discovered that her and Ben were strong in the force and shared a unique connection.

[Somecrazyaussie]

I think Filoni was outside of or at least not a major factor in that group, being occupied with Rebels at the time, and that Kennedy probably sussed out how he should occupy the story group's old role, while the story group should just stick to expanded universe stuff.

Wasn't the story group put in place purely to keep the narrative straight? From memory it wasn't meant to dictate the story, just ensure everything lined up and made sense. The general consensus being Lucas was approving stuff left and right and the expanded universe had become too bogged down as a result of nobody keeping continuity tight.

[godisawesome]

Wasn't the story group put in place purely to keep the narrative straight? From memory it wasn't meant to dictate the story, just ensure everything lined up and made sense. The general consensus being Lucas was approving stuff left and right and the expanded universe had become too bogged down as a result of nobody keeping continuity tight.

The story group's main job was overseeing the Expanded Universe, which they're... usually*... very good at.

But they were also meant to serve as a small advisory group to the directors as well, to at least provide info and feedback on request, and of course to help connect expanded universe material to the St films. And some of their members clearly acted as a sounding board specifically to Johnson (possibly because he was the only one who had the time to use them in the ST), as shown by that transcribed conversation in one of the few BTS books they released where they echo-chamber themselves into thinking Rey Random is a good idea at about the exact same time Johnson is being hired, creating ambiguity about whether he was encouraged to do that or not.

Of course, there's also other non-story group executives who I tend to kind of "throw in" with the story group, so I'm not exactly using the term correctly. I think Pablo Hidalgo is sort of an unofficial spokesman for both the story group and those executives, particularly in regards to being defensive about TLJ and in denial about the consequences of their prejudices on the story. I also think that Boyega and others have pretty strongly implied that LFL executives *did* interfere in TROS against Finn specifically, and possibly also for including the kiss between Rey and Kylo (it was confirmed they filmed a version without it), which fits with the biases of the story group and the affiliated executives.

And I personally feel like Abrams never thought of Rey as being a "Random" or "Nobody" because as lackadaisical as he could be at planning, I think he was observant enough to realize that a "Random" main character would have problems when opposed by a Skywalker antagonist; that's why we've got Daisy Ridely confirming he mentioned Kenobi as a possibility, Simon Pegg hinting it had to be someone specific, and why pretty much everyone thinks Skywalker should have been heavily considered if they're focused on Rey.

And I think one reason Trevorrow got screwed was because he was trying to share LFL's focus on Ben, and not Rey and certainly not Finn; the childhood friendship story he wrote about Ben and Rey about is definitely more in line with TLJ's priorities than TFA's, since it still puts most of the actual focus on Ben instead of her, and I truly believe that Trevorrow was reflecting LFL's distaste for Finn by pushing for Poe instead as a romance option. There really isn't any good reason for Poe to be a romance option in the last film; even the one line exchange that was cut from TFA and put in TLJ doesn't have any meat to it, Rey still has a much more established relationship with Finn. I think LFL 100% didn't want Finn as Rey's love interest because it would overshadow Ben Solo's importance to them, especially when they realized how electric Boyega and Ridley could be together even just platonically.

*I'd add that I think the story group intentionally encouraged lackluster Finn stories after TFA, and seems completely apathetic to Rey, all while being enthusiastic about Kylo, which only worsens the problem in the EU.

[inisideguy]

All I know is I learned a lot about the inside making of these last 3 Star Wars films by just reading the last couple pages here

[godisawesome]

All I know is I learned a lot about the inside making of these last 3 Star Wars films by just reading the last couple pages here

Well, you learned the handful of facts, and lots of hearsay, rumors, implications, and amateur deductions of the BTS story of the ST here.

It does seem like Filoni runs a much tighter ship with Favreau, and his ascension to an overall story guy above the rest of LFL is probably why we won’t hear much about dissension, backbiting, or the need to replace directors for a while at least.

[inisideguy]

Well, you learned the handful of facts, and lots of hearsay, rumors, implications, and amateur deductions of the BTS story of the ST here.

It does seem like Filoni runs a much tighter ship with Favreau, and his ascension to an overall story guy above the rest of LFL is probably why we won’t hear much about dissension, backbiting, or the need to replace directors for a while at least.

I really think the real story will come out one day. Even if in the end it was a total mess, the actual making of this mess is fascinating. To me anyway. The ducks were all in a row for doing something really good with arguably before the MCU the biggest franchise of all time. And lots of mistakes were made. Its amazing to me they didn't seem to have a plan. Or if they did that plan was ignored.

[LordMikel]

I really think the real story will come out one day. Even if in the end it was a total mess, the actual making of this mess is fascinating. To me anyway. The ducks were all in a row for doing something really good with arguably before the MCU the biggest franchise of all time. And lots of mistakes were made. Its amazing to me they didn't seem to have a plan. Or if they did that plan was ignored.

I think they did have a plan, but it was along the lines of, "We don't want to pay any royalties to Extended Universe, so the movies have to be completely different and have no similarities." They succeeded by making it as crappy as possible so no one would compare the two.

[inisideguy]

I think they did have a plan, but it was along the lines of, "We don't want to pay any royalties to Extended Universe, so the movies have to be completely different and have no similarities." They succeeded by making it as crappy as possible so no one would compare the two.

LOL. I mean thats an interesting theory. My personal opinion is they wanted to start off with a Big Bang and they wanted to make it as similar to the TOS as possible to achieve that. Which they did. But after that for whatever reason didn't know where to go or didn't know how to execute it. In the end even if TFA was entertaining, it was playing it safe. And then they were stuck, with ok we just made A New Hope again, now what. And it all went to crap. Its easy for me to say well, they should have been braver and not made TFA in the first place, and done something different. And in retrospect I think I am right. However I wasn't a Disney Executive in 2012 and put in the position to make that decision which I am sure there was a lot of pressure on them to have a massive hit.

[Ikari]

Yup. "Having a goal to work towards" *can*, in its simplest form, just be shared priorities and an agreed upon "feel" and focus for the ending - and I don't think Kennedy, Abrams, and Disney were wrong to think that most combinations of directors/writers were more likely to coalesce around those things in at least a reciprocal fashion. But once Johnson came aboard, i think he exposed some elements of LFL that were a bit too sexist, racist, and a bit too shallow to really share any priorities with TFA's actual successes, but were fully capable of doubling down on its weaknesses.

Because it needs to be understood that while TFA was sort of broken, it still had a lot of strengths that could easily be reinforced to fix it: in terms of representation and getting the new non-white-dude leads over, it was a firm success, as it was with re-engaging the audience and having Han Solo pass the torch to the new heroes (and villain.)

TFA *did* have genuine mystery boxes that went far beyond "meta mysteries", and were simply examples of Abrams's tendency to create narrative blank spaces that demand answers... but for someone else to answer. I actually don't think he was so short-sighted as to not think there *should* be a solid story answer for Snoke, Rey's parentage, and Kylo's fall; he'd be shortsighted enough to think the next guy should have free reign to answer them, but not to think there just shouldn't be an answer.

If TRoS is example of how JJA planned to resolve his 'mystery boxes', then more power to Johnson.

Rey's parentage was not played as a particularly big deal: it was a big deal to her, and part of her character, but nobody else seemed to care. There was even less mystery about Snoke: nobody in the movie acted like he was some kind of mystery character. They seemed to know who he was and what he was doing. It was only a mystery to us because nothing was told about him and he did not have a useful moniker such as "Emperor" which would immediately tell something about him. The way his character was created was that they picked up a figure from a lineup of studio designs which they thought was scary enough, and built it up from there. So an 'idea' of Snoke never existed. He was simply a visual focus.

Exploring Rey-Kylo romantic tension made sense as they had good chemistry, and Adam Driver proved to be a heart throb.

The problem with Abrams is that he always goes for the quick thrill, gag, shock or lens flare, and does not care about anything else. He is simply not good with anything in an estabilished setting. Make him direct Lord of the Rings, he will decide that Tom Bombadil is actually Witch-King of Angmar and he will run away with the ring once Frodo hands it to him, taking it to Numenor where he raises an army of undead dwarves to destroy both Mordor and Gondor. It's what he did with new Star Treks.

[godisawesome]

If TRoS is example of how JJA planned to resolve his 'mystery boxes', then more power to Johnson.

Rey's parentage was not played as a particularly big deal: it was a big deal to her, and part of her character, but nobody else seemed to care. There was even less mystery about Snoke: nobody in the movie acted like he was some kind of mystery character. They seemed to know who he was and what he was doing. It was only a mystery to us because nothing was told about him and he did not have a useful moniker such as "Emperor" which would immediately tell something about him. The way his character was created was that they picked up a figure from a lineup of studio designs which they thought was scary enough, and built it up from there. So an 'idea' of Snoke never existed. He was simply a visual focus.

Exploring Rey-Kylo romantic tension made sense as they had good chemistry, and Adam Driver proved to be a heart throb.

The problem with Abrams is that he always goes for the quick thrill, gag, shock or lens flare, and does not care about anything else. He is simply not good with anything in an estabilished setting. Make him direct Lord of the Rings, he will decide that Tom Bombadil is actually Witch-King of Angmar and he will run away with the ring once Frodo hands it to him, taking it to Numenor where he raises an army of undead dwarves to destroy both Mordor and Gondor. It's what he did with new Star Treks.

There was no fucking chemistry between Daisy Ridley and Adam Driver.

There was only Daisy Ridley working her ass off to pretend Driver was enough of a heartthrob to sell an abusive, illogical, unbelievable and shallow as hell Neo-Nazi fanfiction at the cost of Rey having any believable characterization or a reason for the audience to be invested in her. Adam Driver didn’t do **** for that storyline but stand there and look pretty, because that’s all Ben Solo fans need to start allow racism and sexism in the story to dominate it.

They *had* chemistry in TFA, where he got to be a monster she reacted with loathing and fear towards. He actually had something to do under Abrams both time. He could have been replaced with a cardboard cutout in Johnson’s film, and it would have improved the story.

And hell yes, those mysteries matter, because this was not a fucking stand alone story. It’s a generational family storyline with developed characters. Abrams screwed up by leaving holes for someone else to fill in, but frankly, that’s because he was naive enough to think LFL would realize those needed answers. And even though Abrams screwed up that way, he still built up more depth and dynamism to the new cast than Rian Johnson could stomach. Abrams new Rey’s parentage needed an answer, and Snoke needed an origin, because this was a 9-film story; he screwed up by passing the answer on so Johnson could be pretentious and ignore it.

TFA is a TV producer trying to make a twisted version of the OT.

TLJ is a dumb Michael Bay blockbuster that’s high on its farts and convinced it’s saying anything new.

Episode IX was going to be screwed over regardless because TLJ doomed Rey’s story and the Skywalker family story to a **** ending if it couldn’t reject TLJ.

[Somecrazyaussie]

And now Charles Soule has been made a creative consultant at Lucas Film.

[Ikari]

And hell yes, those mysteries matter, because this was not a fucking stand alone story. It’s a generational family storyline with developed characters. Abrams screwed up by leaving holes for someone else to fill in, but frankly, that’s because he was naive enough to think LFL would realize those needed answers. And even though Abrams screwed up that way, he still built up more depth and dynamism to the new cast than Rian Johnson could stomach. Abrams new Rey’s parentage needed an answer, and Snoke needed an origin, because this was a 9-film story; he screwed up by passing the answer on so Johnson could be pretentious and ignore it.

TFA is a TV producer trying to make a twisted version of the OT.

TLJ is a dumb Michael Bay blockbuster that’s high on its farts and convinced it’s saying anything new.

Episode IX was going to be screwed over regardless because TLJ doomed Rey’s story and the Skywalker family story to a **** ending if it couldn’t reject TLJ.

Of course it's not a standalone story. That's why it was a mistake to hire someone like JJA to handle the first part (or any part), who doesn't care or understand how one works in an estabilished setting.
Rey's parentage was important only as a part of her character. She wanted her abandonement to matter, to have a reason: a very natural wish for someone who was abandoned. Johnson's reveal was one of the better solutions, because it broke the tired trope of Star Wars, that you need to be related to someone famous to have Force. The fanbase ideas that she was lost daughter of Skywalker/Kenobi/Palpatine/Yoda were and are lame.

If Snoke needed an origin, then JJA and Kasdan should have thought of one BEFORE releasing the character. The fact that everyone onboard ok'd Johnson killing him off tells that nobody had thought an interesting origin for him. Certainly the one Abrams came up in TRoS was not one and only served to demean the character further in retrospect.
TLJ is the least blockbuster-esque of New Trilogy movies. It is an attempt to restore mysticism to Force, plus somewhat ill-guided attempts at social commentary and Marvelesque humour glued on top of it. Like TFA, it did not leave any follow-up in a good place.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Of course it's not a standalone story. That's why it was a mistake to hire someone like JJA to handle the first part (or any part), who doesn't care or understand how one works in an estabilished setting.
Rey's parentage was important only as a part of her character. She wanted her abandonement to matter, to have a reason: a very natural wish for someone who was abandoned. Johnson's reveal was one of the better solutions, because it broke the tired trope of Star Wars, that you need to be related to someone famous to have Force. The fanbase ideas that she was lost daughter of Skywalker/Kenobi/Palpatine/Yoda were and are lame.

If Snoke needed an origin, then JJA and Kasdan should have thought of one BEFORE releasing the character. The fact that everyone onboard ok'd Johnson killing him off tells that nobody had thought an interesting origin for him. Certainly the one Abrams came up in TRoS was not one and only served to demean the character further in retrospect.
TLJ is the least blockbuster-esque of New Trilogy movies. It is an attempt to restore mysticism to Force, plus somewhat ill-guided attempts at social commentary and Marvelesque humour glued on top of it. Like TFA, it did not leave any follow-up in a good place.

I agree with all these points and I am firmly in the camp that Rey really shouldn't have had any heritage to existing characters.

[ChrisIII]

Of course it's not a standalone story. That's why it was a mistake to hire someone like JJA to handle the first part (or any part), who doesn't care or understand how one works in an estabilished setting.
Rey's parentage was important only as a part of her character. She wanted her abandonement to matter, to have a reason: a very natural wish for someone who was abandoned. Johnson's reveal was one of the better solutions, because it broke the tired trope of Star Wars, that you need to be related to someone famous to have Force. The fanbase ideas that she was lost daughter of Skywalker/Kenobi/Palpatine/Yoda were and are lame.

If Snoke needed an origin, then JJA and Kasdan should have thought of one BEFORE releasing the character. The fact that everyone onboard ok'd Johnson killing him off tells that nobody had thought an interesting origin for him. Certainly the one Abrams came up in TRoS was not one and only served to demean the character further in retrospect.
TLJ is the least blockbuster-esque of New Trilogy movies. It is an attempt to restore mysticism to Force, plus somewhat ill-guided attempts at social commentary and Marvelesque humour glued on top of it. Like TFA, it did not leave any follow-up in a good place.

Think ESB in a sense was toned down as well. There's no huge space battles, mainly just chases; the big action set piece is early in the movie.although it introduces several new iconic themes it's also the most musically silent of the films as well. John Williams did intend for spectacular music during the Luke/Vader fight but ultimately the final edit largely edited that out, making the fight somewhat much more tense.

[godisawesome]

Of course it's not a standalone story. That's why it was a mistake to hire someone like JJA to handle the first part (or any part), who doesn't care or understand how one works in an estabilished setting.
Rey's parentage was important only as a part of her character. She wanted her abandonement to matter, to have a reason: a very natural wish for someone who was abandoned. Johnson's reveal was one of the better solutions, because it broke the tired trope of Star Wars, that you need to be related to someone famous to have Force. The fanbase ideas that she was lost daughter of Skywalker/Kenobi/Palpatine/Yoda were and are lame.

If Snoke needed an origin, then JJA and Kasdan should have thought of one BEFORE releasing the character. The fact that everyone onboard ok'd Johnson killing him off tells that nobody had thought an interesting origin for him. Certainly the one Abrams came up in TRoS was not one and only served to demean the character further in retrospect.
TLJ is the least blockbuster-esque of New Trilogy movies. It is an attempt to restore mysticism to Force, plus somewhat ill-guided attempts at social commentary and Marvelesque humour glued on top of it. Like TFA, it did not leave any follow-up in a good place.

There *was* actually a lot of room left over after TFA to take the story to a good place; Finn’s in great shape and just needs something like a Stormtrooper Reblellion as his next arc, Rey has enough dimension to be a good main character if she gets the “torch passed” from Luke as his student (which was one of the things Abrams and a Kasdan were explicit on), Kylo has an explicitly laid out path to grow as a villain and has a compelling of loathsome madness plaguing him, and as derivative as the rest of the story is, it’s at the same level as 95% of all good Star Wars material under Disney in regards to trying to copy the more intelligent parts of the OT.

Abrams gave them a working “ship” that could go places, with its biggest problem being no real navigation… but that’s entirely different from Johnson taking a dump on it and sinking everything. As shallow as Abrams is, I’d argue *ANY* competent Star Wars director could eaisly make a great follow up to TFA that used it’s actually decent strengths as jumping off points…

…Though I would argue that, yes, the easiest way t9 do that would be to make Rey a Skywalker, and I genuinely don’t respect the opinion that would have been “tired” or bad at all.

There is no actual “tired trope” about the heroes having to be related to someone famous in Star Wars; people holding that stupid of an opinion aren’t paying enough attention to matter, as about five seconds of obeservation shows it’s not a problem. But people have a good reason to think a sequel to the PT and OT should star a Skywalker, because the family story was the story; everything else was just attached to it.

And the fact Ben Solo has a fanbase that the character in no way deserves shows the value of legacy to Star Wars. Legacy isn’t a bad thing; it’s merely a central aspect that has to be used correctly. Finn in TFA is a better character than all other Star Wars characters after only one story in the history of the franchise, so he shows you don’t *need* the connection to be a success… but LFL themselves and the vast bulk of TLJ fans sought to retcon and erase that because Ben has “Solo” in his name, and once he was the only family member left, they became willing to screw over everyone else for him.

Rey was screwed when the decision was made to *both* not make her a Skywalker *and* to not fight the uphill battle neccessary to put her story as more important than the Skywalker family story, because that’s the actual long term story you’re dealing with; the family story is paramount to the most people. Make her a Skywalker, and she holds center stage over everyone because of the connection. Work your ass off to make Rey Random a character, and you might be able to make her hold center stage… but we can see that Rian Johnson and most of LFL couldn’t do that.

And frankly, I don’t see people who hate predictable reveals like Rey Skywalker as being an issue; I’ve yet to meet a single person who dislikes the idea who makes me think that would have actually killed their interest in the character or story (well, except for Ben Solo fans desperate to protect him) but I know it killed off interest in Rey among the mainstream and hardcore fans because Kylo was there. half the fans left after TLJ came out,

If there were no Ben Solo in the story, than yeah, Rey wouldn’t need either the family tie or a legendary-level story to be the main character. But Ben Solo was in the story.

You can’t tell me that the minority of people who would go “Man, itks predictable, so I don’t like it” would stack up at all to the TFA fans who would be told “Hey, girl, here’s that girl Skywalker hero you”be been promised since the 80’s/Hey, fans, the Skywalker family is going to be alright.”

Most people aren’t that pretentious, and that’s a good thing that LFL ignored.