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  1. #76
    Extraordinary Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Again, I think a lot of it comes down to how much one values certain things. I’m overall happy with the current situation… but I’m still disappointed that the current status quo involves an abysmal, pathetic ending to the foundational story of the franchise, and that while the Live Action shows have ambition and wisdom, most of the printed media seems to be written by creators walking on metaphorical egg shells to avoid possibly getting in the way of any live action stuff.

    Like, on the one hand, it’s amazing that we can see Star Wars be a prestige format TV machine, and that The Clone Wars Legacy is continuing strong. That is a definite improvement from the Lucas age, since I think that his mix of perfectionism but sometimes flawed approach likely wouldn’t produce either as much or as good content as we have with Favreau and Filoni.

    …But, well, The Skywalkers mean more than the other IPs of the franchise, and they got trashed enough that both they and the characters who were supposed to take their place need rehabilitation to maximize appeal and creative energy going forward.

    And I do almost singularly blame this on The Last Jedi screwing everything up because neither Rian Johnson nor a bunch of lifelong LFL employees got Star Wars *enoigh*. If The Force Awakens had a competent follow-up from someone who genuinely understood the appeal of the OT (all of it, including ROTJ) *and* the potential of the new characters and factions (as derivative as they were), I think we’d be looking at a beast of a continuing franchise larger than the MCU, rather than a fairly distant, currently TV-locked second. Solo could be shaken off… but even though all three ST films made over a billion dollars, having half the audience run off by the last one is far worse.

    Star Wars is an inspirational and escapist adventure story designed for as many people from as many walks of life as possible to enjoy it - something that I believe Lucas was always certain of, especially as a businessman. The Last Jedi, in contrast, is a film that holds both certain segments of the audience and the franchise in contempt as childish or bland - it’s contemptuous of people who want an inspiring female hero, a black hero, and even just fulfilling escapist storytelling.

    If everything were great, we’d be looking at spin-off D+ shows with Rey, Finn, Poe, and maybe even a living Ben Solo… and instead, half the new actors don’t want to return, and Mark Hamill has to be told to watch his opinions about Luke.

    I like the current generations of Star Wars because of The Mandalorian, but in spite of LFL’s Adam Driver obsessed would-be pretentiousness.
    Understandably, individual tastes vary but the objective truth is that Star Wars is doing well at Disney. Very well indeed.

    There's literally no objective argument that can be made against that. It's a big success and is raking in money hand over fist and just seems to be getting bigger every time you turn around, which even if you don't care for half of what is getting made is still a net good because the better it's doing the more likely you are to get content that you might enjoy.
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  2. #77
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    Understandably, individual tastes vary but the objective truth is that Star Wars is doing well at Disney. Very well indeed.
    This.

    I loathe the way the sequels treated the original cast just as much as anyone. A lot of effort is gonna have to go into fixing that eventually, and repairing the damage the sequels did.

    But the sequels each made a billion at the box office, the live-action stuff has done well (even Boba was technically successful I think, even if it was lackluster and largely disappointing), the Disney-era cartoons have largely been successful as well. Bit of a mixed bag but the franchise has made plenty of money and I don't think we're any worse off than we were with Lucas, because he screwed up plenty of his own stuff too.

    But if you put more weight behind the fate of the Skywalker family, then it's easy to see how the sequel films overshadow all the successes. And I get that, I view the Skywalkers as the keystone of the franchise too. But if we're talking hard, cold cash as a metric for success, then Disney has done just fine.
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  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    Understandably, individual tastes vary but the objective truth is that Star Wars is doing well at Disney. Very well indeed.

    There's literally no objective argument that can be made against that. It's a big success and is raking in money hand over fist and just seems to be getting bigger every time you turn around, which even if you don't care for half of what is getting made is still a net good because the better it's doing the more likely you are to get content that you might enjoy.
    Now it is , yeah.

    I just kind of want it acknowledged that TLJ-TROs (with Solo in-between) *is* an objective argument for massive missed opportunities, lessened profit margin, and something that Favreau and Filoni are kind of "digging out of."

    It's a net good, but there was a while there where it wasn't. Ask this question after Solo comes out, and its a break-even at best.

    And the cold, hard cash estimates reflect that a bit; since Solo was a flop, and since the ST lost half its audience while likely going over mildly over-budget due to BTS issues, it needs to be acknowledged as a possibility that for a while there, the brand was carrying the franchise in spite of the output, especially considering TFA and Rogue One had s outperformed expectations in comparison.

    When Disney-era LFL took off using some left-over stuff from Lucas - the rough idea of Episode VII, Rebels by Filoni, and Rogue One based off some ideas that Lucas had himself and stuff in Legends. They mad BANK. They then shifted away from that and tired to make a "bitter Gen Xers fix Star Wars period" for a brief time, self-congratulated themselves with The Last Jedi, Solo and The Resistance show no one watched, and ran off half their fans, making decent cash, but NOT "bank". Then they adjusted, gave Filoni and Favreau authority, and course corrected back to making bank... but only after having to cede their role as an MCU-level movie franchise.
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  4. #79
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    I don't see it as a mistake. We probably wouldn't have what we have as far as new Star Wars stuff now if not for Disney. Have they made mistakes? Yea. But they have had some big hits as well. And I'm sure Obi wan is going to be a huge hit for them. So no.

  5. #80
    the devil's reject choptop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    Understandably, individual tastes vary but the objective truth is that Star Wars is doing well at Disney. Very well indeed.

    There's literally no objective argument that can be made against that. It's a big success and is raking in money hand over fist and just seems to be getting bigger every time you turn around, which even if you don't care for half of what is getting made is still a net good because the better it's doing the more likely you are to get content that you might enjoy.
    I wouldn't say very well but they are doing ok the movies are not making there full potential and have been going down profit Wise however the comics and tv shows seem to be on the up so there's that.

  6. #81
    Extraordinary Member Zero Hunter's Avatar
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    I think the main problem with selling to Disney is that Disney had no idea what to do with it at first. If Disney would have taken a step back and came up with and actual plan and mapped out where they wanted the franchise to go instead of winging it things would have been much better. They do seem to have more a plan or roadmap now with the shows and animated series, and they have been great. With the movies I'm not sure what they can do. Most people don't want to see a return to those characters from the sequel era (honestly I really think if Disney came out tommorow and said from now on we are consdiering the sequels their own universe and the future is wide open again most people would be ok with it)

  7. #82
    Ultimate Member ChrisIII's Avatar
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    ^Think it's possible Poe could fit into the new Rogue Squadron movie, although when it's set is kind of vague-the announcement said something about "The future of the Star Wars galaxy" but that could also be the period between the OT and ST.
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  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero Hunter View Post
    I think the main problem with selling to Disney is that Disney had no idea what to do with it at first. If Disney would have taken a step back and came up with and actual plan and mapped out where they wanted the franchise to go instead of winging it things would have been much better. They do seem to have more a plan or roadmap now with the shows and animated series, and they have been great. With the movies I'm not sure what they can do. Most people don't want to see a return to those characters from the sequel era (honestly I really think if Disney came out tommorow and said from now on we are consdiering the sequels their own universe and the future is wide open again most people would be ok with it)
    When all is said and done, I don't think selling it was a mistake. But moreso the fact they didn't take time to map out what they actually wanted to do with it once they had it. As soon as they had it Episode 7 was announced. Plus I think they really need solid creative's in place from the get go. They have that now with Dave and Jon.

  9. #84
    Put a smile on that face Immortal Weapon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somecrazyaussie View Post
    When all is said and done, I don't think selling it was a mistake. But moreso the fact they didn't take time to map out what they actually wanted to do with it once they had it. As soon as they had it Episode 7 was announced. Plus I think they really need solid creative's in place from the get go. They have that now with Dave and Jon.
    It would have been better for Disney if Lucasfilm had a plan in place when they made the purchase. The purchases of Marvel and Pixar made financial sense because of how many projects they had in the pipeline at the time negotiations happened. Disney didn't need to do anything other than let them continue what they were doing and take their piece.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Immortal Weapon View Post
    It would have been better for Disney if Lucasfilm had a plan in place when they made the purchase. The purchases of Marvel and Pixar made financial sense because of how many projects they had in the pipeline at the time negotiations happened. Disney didn't need to do anything other than let them continue what they were doing and take their piece.
    They *did* have ST ideas Lucas left behind, but it seems clear that Disney, Kennedy, and everyone else eventually involved (including both Abrams and Johnson) had some kind of “We must avoid any kind of PT situation!” that resulted in different levels of over-compensating. They mostly seemed to have kept ideas of a female main character, a Solo boy gone bad, and Luke in exile… but at various points failed on several of the elements.

    Now, I’d still say the biggest mistake with the ST wasn’t even starting without a fully formed plan, per se; it was when it became possible for Rian Johnson’s TLJ script to get through the vetting process. Once LFL’s executives were capable of approving a story that got sexist and racist enough to waste the goodwill from TFA’s new main heroes by denigrating or pimping them out for the villain, and short sighted enough to make all the wrong choices on each mystery box and still screw up stuff that wasn’t a mystery box… that’s when the ST got screwed. Johnson just happened to then delver such a script.

    Now, the best thing about the situation is that Kennedy is the type to take a charge like “make content!” from Disney and make the type of decisions Lucas probably should have years ago - find someone you trust to do the big stories, like Filoni and Favreau, and let them do their thing.
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  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    They *did* have ST ideas Lucas left behind, but it seems clear that Disney, Kennedy, and everyone else eventually involved (including both Abrams and Johnson) had some kind of “We must avoid any kind of PT situation!” that resulted in different levels of over-compensating. They mostly seemed to have kept ideas of a female main character, a Solo boy gone bad, and Luke in exile… but at various points failed on several of the elements.

    Now, I’d still say the biggest mistake with the ST wasn’t even starting without a fully formed plan, per se; it was when it became possible for Rian Johnson’s TLJ script to get through the vetting process. Once LFL’s executives were capable of approving a story that got sexist and racist enough to waste the goodwill from TFA’s new main heroes by denigrating or pimping them out for the villain, and short sighted enough to make all the wrong choices on each mystery box and still screw up stuff that wasn’t a mystery box… that’s when the ST got screwed. Johnson just happened to then delver such a script.

    Now, the best thing about the situation is that Kennedy is the type to take a charge like “make content!” from Disney and make the type of decisions Lucas probably should have years ago - find someone you trust to do the big stories, like Filoni and Favreau, and let them do their thing.
    That was why Lucas started actively developing episodes 7 through to 9. On the one hand he wanted to sweeten the pot to entice Disney to pay big bucks for it. On the other hand he wanted something in place for them to work with. But, as we know, Disney scrapped those ideas in favour of their own (which they had the right to do).

    However, as you point out, the whole thing became derailed by Johnson. JJ Abrams and Kasdan had roughly sketched out a storyline for episodes 8 and 9 when they did episode 7. These were offered to Johnson as a means of keeping some continuity. For his own reasons, he ditched them. Preferring to do his own script.

    You could tell it had a domino effect because Trevorrow was working from the same outline and expressly wanted three things to carry over 1. Luke had to be kept alive, 2. Rey's parentage to still be unknown and 3. He wanted to set up a romance between Rey and Poe. When he realised that Johnson did his own thing and shot the outline to hell, he walked.

    Kathleen Kennedy should have kept a much tighter leash. That's where they really went wrong. Thankfully they've learned their lesson and things have improved over at Lucas Film with their output. But the sequel trilogy really came undone with Johnson.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somecrazyaussie View Post
    That was why Lucas started actively developing episodes 7 through to 9. On the one hand he wanted to sweeten the pot to entice Disney to pay big bucks for it. On the other hand he wanted something in place for them to work with. But, as we know, Disney scrapped those ideas in favour of their own (which they had the right to do).

    However, as you point out, the whole thing became derailed by Johnson. JJ Abrams and Kasdan had roughly sketched out a storyline for episodes 8 and 9 when they did episode 7. These were offered to Johnson as a means of keeping some continuity. For his own reasons, he ditched them. Preferring to do his own script.

    You could tell it had a domino effect because Trevorrow was working from the same outline and expressly wanted three things to carry over 1. Luke had to be kept alive, 2. Rey's parentage to still be unknown and 3. He wanted to set up a romance between Rey and Poe. When he realised that Johnson did his own thing and shot the outline to hell, he walked.

    Kathleen Kennedy should have kept a much tighter leash. That's where they really went wrong. Thankfully they've learned their lesson and things have improved over at Lucas Film with their output. But the sequel trilogy really came undone with Johnson.
    I don't think I'd say a rough story was sketched out - in part because Abrams himself likes to still try and "TV produce" movies where the next guy can come up with answers. I think all three directors (Abrams, Johnson, and Trevorrow) started out believing in the idea of a "hot potato story," and that the "hot potato story" could have worked... if they'd shared the same priorities.

    And I WOULD say that Abrams and Kasdan established a set of priorities when they did episode 7, which included expectations and general assumptions about where things should go or what shape they should take. Their priorities were for a story that served Rey first as the main character and "Skywalker" of the story (and in a way that was likely to be literal if that priority was kept), Finn as the male lead and likely romantic lead if there was one, Kylo on a Villain's Journey but still strictly an antagonist, the OT3 character was there to act as a mentor and pass the torch to the new guys, and an attempt to ape the OT - but specifically the Kasdan-penned sections of the OT where the baddies are more competent, clever, and energetic.

    Where things went wrong was that LFL never bought into those priorities, and neither did Johnson or Trevorrow, with Johnson establishing a contradictory set of priorities that LFL embraced, and that then impacted Trevorrow's initial ideas before his writing revealed the problems inherent in them even to LFL's new Johnson-inspired priorities.

    Johnson's priorities were primarily Kylo-centered, subconsciously hostile to Finn and objectifying of Rey, with a sincere if misguided belief that Star Wars needed a deconstructive commentary because it was "inherently shallow" - which could only really come form a shallow view itself. It's why TLJ doesn't just seem to actively sabotage Finn and Rey while being enamored with Kylo, and not just consciously project it's contempt for some Star Wars elements onto Luke, but also almost unknowingly sabotage the primary conflict - like how the Resistance, the First Order, and the entire Galaxy all seem to be an exceptionally stupid recreated of the OT.

    Trevorrow got screwed even when he tried to share those priorities: he likely pushed Poe as a romance interest because he wasn't Finn, and still focused the story more on Kylo than Rey... only for LFL to start cluing in this meant the entire external conflict was crap, and that Kylo pulling double duty as the main villain and co-protagonist meant the audience was still encouraged to cheer against him and not see him as a hero. That's why LFL's reported demands form him had little to do with Rey or Finn and everything to do with trying to create a new main villain.

    When Trevorrow was fired and Abrams replaced him, Abrams tried to merge the two different priorities, and it led to a mess where you can tell he wants the focus back on Rey and Finn, has LFL sabotaging that, and is likewise not enthusiastic or supportive of the Ben Solo story they want. Meanwhile, the entire Sith Fleet and General Pryde story arc is an attempt to fix the external conflict, with Pryde a success but the Sith Fleet way too much way too late.

    Now, I would actually argue that Kennedy can sort of be excused for not having a tight enough leash - she was concurrently overseeing two BTS-issue-dominated spin-offs and giving Filoni the greenlight for Rebels, developing a Disney Park expansion, and managed to turn on a dime into the Disney+ shows when things went sideways. I think the problem was the Story Group and other executives she promoted to be the middle men but were underqualified for the job - guys like Pablo Hidalgo and Jason Fry are great lore fiends who can oversee an expanded universe, but they clearly share too much in common with Johnson. Filoni's promotion above them is a sign of Kennedy getting a handle on that.
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  13. #88
    Spectacular Member Ikari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somecrazyaussie View Post
    That was why Lucas started actively developing episodes 7 through to 9. On the one hand he wanted to sweeten the pot to entice Disney to pay big bucks for it. On the other hand he wanted something in place for them to work with. But, as we know, Disney scrapped those ideas in favour of their own (which they had the right to do).

    However, as you point out, the whole thing became derailed by Johnson. JJ Abrams and Kasdan had roughly sketched out a storyline for episodes 8 and 9 when they did episode 7. These were offered to Johnson as a means of keeping some continuity. For his own reasons, he ditched them. Preferring to do his own script.

    You could tell it had a domino effect because Trevorrow was working from the same outline and expressly wanted three things to carry over 1. Luke had to be kept alive, 2. Rey's parentage to still be unknown and 3. He wanted to set up a romance between Rey and Poe. When he realised that Johnson did his own thing and shot the outline to hell, he walked.
    As far as I know, Abrams ok'd Johnson's script and even changed the ending on his request to better match Johnson's visions. So I don't really buy the idea that Kasdan and JJ had some great story arc in mind where somehow everything would have made sense. Although TFA is a competent movie in terms of directing, cinematography and acting, it has the least ambitious and interesting plot of all Star Wars movies. All the supposed 'mystery boxes' were mostly 'meta mysteries' which fans came up by themselves as preceding Star Wars lore had educated them that everything must be always somehow connected to this incredibly inbred core group of characters and bloodlines.

    Rey-Poe romance would have made little sense as that's the pairing with the least onscreen chemistry.

  14. #89
    Spectacular Member Ikari's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I don't think I'd say a rough story was sketched out - in part because Abrams himself likes to still try and "TV produce" movies where the next guy can come up with answers. I think all three directors (Abrams, Johnson, and Trevorrow) started out believing in the idea of a "hot potato story," and that the "hot potato story" could have worked... if they'd shared the same priorities.

    And I WOULD say that Abrams and Kasdan established a set of priorities when they did episode 7, which included expectations and general assumptions about where things should go or what shape they should take. Their priorities were for a story that served Rey first as the main character and "Skywalker" of the story (and in a way that was likely to be literal if that priority was kept), Finn as the male lead and likely romantic lead if there was one, Kylo on a Villain's Journey but still strictly an antagonist, the OT3 character was there to act as a mentor and pass the torch to the new guys, and an attempt to ape the OT - but specifically the Kasdan-penned sections of the OT where the baddies are more competent, clever, and energetic.

    Where things went wrong was that LFL never bought into those priorities, and neither did Johnson or Trevorrow, with Johnson establishing a contradictory set of priorities that LFL embraced, and that then impacted Trevorrow's initial ideas before his writing revealed the problems inherent in them even to LFL's new Johnson-inspired priorities.
    Indeed I am sure everybody onboard thought that "Tag, you're it" method of writing a trilogy could work, after all Lucas himself made much of the OT up on the fly and changed concepts and characters etc. I also think that many people involved thought a new Star Wars cannot possibly fail in any way as they would be fixing one of the most glaring problems of the Prequel Trilogy - that Lucas directed them by himself in an incredibly lazy, uninspired fashion which made them so undynamic and unengaging. Put 3 fresh directors to film them using all their tricks and lens flares - a sure success!

    I think what Lucasfilm was worried was that the movies might come across as too indistinguishable and similar if they were all given to the same team. All JJ Abrams movies are very same-y, for example. So they gave the second installment to someone who would make it different from the first. I don't think this is a bad thing, in principle. But there was apparently nobody watching over the whole thing, to ensure that the transitions make sense and there is some kind of goal to work towards. JJ and Kasdan handed a broken toy to Johnson who fixed it up to his liking, broke it again and dumped it to Trevorrow who went "Oh ****". And then when Lucasfilm decided that his attempt did not cut the mustard, there was very little time to refine the script to something passable, leaving Abrams just to pick up every possible low-hanging fruit, blend them quickly together and declare it a jam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Indeed I am sure everybody onboard thought that "Tag, you're it" method of writing a trilogy could work, after all Lucas himself made much of the OT up on the fly and changed concepts and characters etc. I also think that many people involved thought a new Star Wars cannot possibly fail in any way as they would be fixing one of the most glaring problems of the Prequel Trilogy - that Lucas directed them by himself in an incredibly lazy, uninspired fashion which made them so undynamic and unengaging. Put 3 fresh directors to film them using all their tricks and lens flares - a sure success!

    I think what Lucasfilm was worried was that the movies might come across as too indistinguishable and similar if they were all given to the same team. All JJ Abrams movies are very same-y, for example. So they gave the second installment to someone who would make it different from the first. I don't think this is a bad thing, in principle. But there was apparently nobody watching over the whole thing, to ensure that the transitions make sense and there is some kind of goal to work towards. JJ and Kasdan handed a broken toy to Johnson who fixed it up to his liking, broke it again and dumped it to Trevorrow who went "Oh ****". And then when Lucasfilm decided that his attempt did not cut the mustard, there was very little time to refine the script to something passable, leaving Abrams just to pick up every possible low-hanging fruit, blend them quickly together and declare it a jam.
    Yup. "Having a goal to work towards" *can*, in its simplest form, just be shared priorities and an agreed upon "feel" and focus for the ending - and I don't think Kennedy, Abrams, and Disney were wrong to think that most combinations of directors/writers were more likely to coalesce around those things in at least a reciprocal fashion. But once Johnson came aboard, i think he exposed some elements of LFL that were a bit too sexist, racist, and a bit too shallow to really share any priorities with TFA's actual successes, but were fully capable of doubling down on its weaknesses.

    Because it needs to be understood that while TFA was sort of broken, it still had a lot of strengths that could easily be reinforced to fix it: in terms of representation and getting the new non-white-dude leads over, it was a firm success, as it was with re-engaging the audience and having Han Solo pass the torch to the new heroes (and villain.)

    TFA *did* have genuine mystery boxes that went far beyond "meta mysteries", and were simply examples of Abrams's tendency to create narrative blank spaces that demand answers... but for someone else to answer. I actually don't think he was so short-sighted as to not think there *should* be a solid story answer for Snoke, Rey's parentage, and Kylo's fall; he'd be shortsighted enough to think the next guy should have free reign to answer them, but not to think there just shouldn't be an answer.

    I just think he was too quick to withdraw from actual involvement in accordance with the hot potato idea for the story, and thus didn't actually review TLJ's script that much; not only is TROS clearly in conflict with TLJ as much as TLJ is with TFA, but we've had comments from various people close to Abrams (Simon Pegg, Bad Robots editor team) that TLJ was moving against TFA. We've got some strong evidence that LFL's rank and file felt besmirched by Abrams bringing in Bad Robot, didn't like working with Abrams at all, and got a bit partisan not just towards TLJ and Johnson, but also in pursuit of what they expected the story to be back before Abrams took over. We also *do* have some evidence of LFL's story group and other middle men choosing the "Rey Random" answer that singularly screwed over her and the rest of the story in exactly the same month that Johnson was hired, making it a bit of a question as to who influenced who, and whether or not Abrams could have really influenced Johnson at all in regards to the most important question of the ST.

    Clearly, there's a bit of a "old boy's club" in some parts of LFL (not at all unusual for Hollywood, though perhaps the make-up of this group would be) that had enough conscious/subconscious sexism that it warped their treatment of Rey and Kylo, and likely some similar racism turning them against Finn... and all before TFA was even released, and possibly while TLJ was being written.

    I think Filoni was outside of or at least not a major factor in that group, being occupied with Rebels at the time, and that Kennedy probably sussed out how he should occupy the story group's old role, while the story group should just stick to expanded universe stuff.
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