Dark Crisis Announced

[kilderkin]

Lets define sales...

Is that book ordered of books someone entered a store and BOUGHT.

Generally what we hear is books ordered.

Ordered in large numbers.

Reprints are based on copies sold to stores and NOT copies bought.

Yet we rarely hear about how many copies are sold.

The only time we seem to hear complaints about unsold copies is when it's a POC (mainly black) lead book by those who don't want those books to ever exist in the first place.

Events automatically get large orders (depending on who the leads are see Outlawed at Marvel) and you never hear about them selling out everywhere.

Why? Because too many copies were ordered. Which eventually find their way into bins, comic con boxes and Midtown comics sales.

If this was a great story-why is only one person attacking folks over it? Wouldn't more folks be saying good things about it?

I have yet to hear anything good about this.

If this is a definition, I'll just leave it here

It says a lot about the industry

[SuperX]

The thing is DC needs to have these big multiverse type changes to explain 2 things
1 for main DC to interact with different versions of DC
2 to explain all the changes in the timeline,you know the ones some on here spend hours debating with others about.

[Menacer]

Sales don't mean that it's a good story...literally every event sells well but you won't hear many say that they're all the best stories around.

Well Okay true sales dont indicate its good. But its definitely more of an indication that its good then that its bad.

Someone mentioned Identity Crisis earlier. And I've seen it shit on here before. And people take a very small sample size from here and call that the gospel. But Identity Crisis has over 20,000 reviews on Goodreads and had a sold 4 star out of 5 rating.

SO who do I believe? Is it an event that is enjoyed and liked? This forum says no. But a very small sample size says that, loudly.

Or do I believe 20k reviews from goodreads...

True maybe neither is a great metric but I lean towards believing that in general terms Goodreads fan base is morr reliable then maybe 100 vocal people here.

Now trades recieve more ratings then singles on goodreads but im gonna generally pay over all more attention to that larger fan base of reviews then people here.

Dark crisis is still to new to get the best metric on what people think. But frankly it wont matter. I still enjoyed it and no matter what people say you guys will hate it.

Thats totally fine. DARK crisis certainly isnt a perfect event. But i enjoyed the journey and art and Liked it enough that I wanna reread it.

We may never get exact numbers for sales and even if we do you'll discount that anyhow.

So ive said all I can say. I read to relax and enjoy myself. Not to be a harsh critic and I definitely dont hate read like it appears some wanna do here.

This is all im gonna say on this. Time to move onto a more productive convo.

[thwhtGuardian]

Well Okay true sales dont indicate its good. But its definitely more of an indication that its good then that its bad.

Someone mentioned Identity Crisis earlier. And I've seen it shit on here before. And people take a very small sample size from here and call that the gospel. But Identity Crisis has over 20,000 reviews on Goodreads and had a sold 4 star out of 5 rating.

SO who do I believe? Is it an event that is enjoyed and liked? This forum says no. But a very small sample size says that, loudly.

Or do I believe 20k reviews from goodreads...

True maybe neither is a great metric but I lean towards believing that in general terms Goodreads fan base is morr reliable then maybe 100 vocal people here.

Now trades recieve more ratings then singles on goodreads but im gonna generally pay over all more attention to that larger fan base of reviews then people here.

Dark crisis is still to new to get the best metric on what people think. But frankly it wont matter. I still enjoyed it and no matter what people say you guys will hate it.

Thats totally fine. DARK crisis certainly isnt a perfect event. But i enjoyed the journey and art and Liked it enough that I wanna reread it.

We may never get exact numbers for sales and even if we do you'll discount that anyhow.

So ive said all I can say. I read to relax and enjoy myself. Not to be a harsh critic and I definitely dont hate read like it appears some wanna do here.

This is all im gonna say on this. Time to move onto a more productive convo.

Sales aren't a measure of quality and they don't indicate quality either...that's just a flat fact.

Heck, in terms of comic sales that's even more so as the sales don't even represent end user purchases, just what is being ordered(and even then, just what's being ordered by a small sample of stores).

I've never met someone who wasn't aware that Goodreads was an absolutely terrible source of reviews for actual readers before. I was pretty certain that anyone with any interest in reading, whether it be comics,novels or non-fiction knew that Goodreads was almost entirely corporate shill. It lost all its credibilty nearly a decade ago when it was bought by Amazon and has been a cesspool ever since.

I guess it really is possible to learn something new everyday.

It's totally fine to like something.

It's also fine not to like something.

What isn't fine is trying to pretend one's opinion is more valid than another's, especially when the "proof"is just a string of very obvious logical fallacies(appealing to a false authority and band wagoning)

[Bruce Wayne]

Well Okay true sales dont indicate its good. But its definitely more of an indication that its good then that its bad.

Jim Lee's X-Men #1 sold 8 million prints and is in the Guiness Book of World Records. I think this example blows away your claim that more sales = better comic argument. Because a lot of these monthly purchases are built on hype, misleading incomplete information/advertising and sunk cost fallacy.

[Frontier]

Where did the thing with Green Arrow vanishing happen?

Death of the Justice League?

[Wally West]

Multiverse stories get boring after while. They should just stick to telling good stories on earth 1 or prime
Or whatever

[dornwolf]

I‘ll go on record and say I love multiverse stories they can be fun. What I’d like to see is projects like Earth-One again or limited series like they did awhile back with the Nazi Earth I think Robert Vinditti wrote. Lets explore President Supermans world already.

[Dataweaver]

The thing is DC needs to have these big multiverse type changes to explain 2 things
1 for main DC to interact with different versions of DC
2 to explain all the changes in the timeline,you know the ones some on here spend hours debating with others about.

The Multiverse does the former; and you can sort of kludge it to get something that resembles the latter. Hypertime does both, with a focus on the latter.

[Dataweaver]

Where did the thing with Green Arrow vanishing happen?

Dark Crisis #… 6, I think? The one where the Justice League returned. Oliver wasn't with them when they got back.

[Restingvoice]

Agreed. Hypertime does everything that an Infinite Multiverse does, and then some; so it's arguably better than an infinite Multiverse.

Also, an Infinite Multiverse doesn't preclude other Multiverses; and “infinite worlds” doesn't mean “every Earth”: the Dark Multiverse is infinite but doesn't include even one world that isn't corrupted or falling apart. And the new Infinite Multiverse may not include the pre-Crisis Earths 1, 2, 3, 4, 8, S, or X; certainly not under those labels.

I think Multiverse is more appealing because of it has a definitive place in space. Whereas Time is more abstract. The way they describe or use Hypertime it's like it's constantly in flux, weaving around, like it can disappear at any time especially since the focus is on Earth-0 90% of the time.

They function the same in storytelling, but my mind can understand parallel space better than parallel time, because when I think time, I think the way it's used in time travel or Zero Time series, disappearing and out of focus once you change it. Like how Flashpoint is supposed to disappear once it's fixed, and now that it's brought back made me confused, even though I know they should exist somewhere in Hypertime.

Map of the Multiverse helps a lot.

[Dataweaver]

Multiverse stories get boring after while. They should just stick to telling good stories on earth 1 or prime
Or whatever

I‘ll go on record and say I love multiverse stories they can be fun. What I’d like to see is projects like Earth-One again or limited series like they did awhile back with the Nazi Earth I think Robert Vinditti wrote. Lets explore President Supermans world already.

We're getting things like Dark Knights of Steel, Jurassic League, DC: Mech, Injustice, and DCeased. There were recent attempts at Earth 2 and Earth 3 stories, though those didn't pan out very well. Earth 6 will be revisited soon as a tribute to Stan Lee. However, none of these stories require a Multiverse; that only becomes a necessity once they start interacting with other worlds.

For all its faults, Justice League Incarnate brought a spotlight to the Marvel and Image pastiches; I wouldn't mind getting a sequel to it that isn't setting up a Crisis; something more in the vein of Marvel's Exiles.

Morrison said that he had lots of material to work with for Earth 4, his answer to Watchmen. With Captain Adam having left Earth 4 and Johns having brought the actual Watchmen back, it might be interesting to do an Earth 4/Watchmen crossover. More on that below.

I also wouldn't mind a Thunderworld ongoing, especially if it gets into reimagining other Fawcett heroes besides the Marvel family. Having them encounter Earth 0's Shazam family would be a great way to highlight the difference between the two, both the good and the bad. (For instance, Earth 5 apparently doesn't have much diversity on it; you're unlikely to find anyone there who's black, hispanic, or Asian; so no Darla, Pedro, or Eugene. On the other hand, I could see Darla being Earth 23's Shazam.)

I wouldn't mind an Earth One reboot, but done in the style of of Marvel's Ultimate Universe rather than the Graphic Novel format that DC opted to go with.

Earth 12 seems to have suffered the same fate as Earth 2: Batman Beyond has become a possible future for Earth 0, and had an entire series set in that future. What's left for Earth 12 to cover?

Earth 11 doesn't interest me as much as a sequel to Elseworlds Finest would: a world where Batgirl and Supergirl premiered instead of Batman and Superman would be fun to explore further. Unfortunately, that appears not to be among the current Infinite Earths, just like every other Convergence timeline that was revealed to have “evolved” into worlds in the Orrery. I'd invoke Hypertime, and reveal that the Metaversal phenomena from Doomsday Clock aren't unique to Earth 0: if you go to Earth 11 and search its timeline for connections to past iterations, you can find Elseworld's Finest in a related Hypertimeline.

[dietrich]

Jim Lee's X-Men #1 sold 8 million prints and is in the Guiness Book of World Records. I think this example blows away your claim that more sales = better comic argument. Because a lot of these monthly purchases are built on hype, misleading incomplete information/advertising and sunk cost fallacy.

That's not a good example at all. That just proves that No 1 issue of the era's best selling team will sell exceedingly well especially when it has a lot of variants and headlines by one of the most well known creators in the industry.

The sales for X-Men no 1 wasn't anything to do with the story and you know this. Everyone knows this. No 1 issues like that are all about the variants and the spectator market.

plenty of well loved comic runs have also sold in the millions. A number of good beloved runs also broke records. A lot of the great titles from the 90's are to this day still permanent mainstays on the Amazon top 100 best selling GN every month. Pretty much all the DC titles on that list are classics from back in the day.

Proving that a good story does lead to high sales even 30 years after they were published, titles like Watchmen, Year one, long Halloween etc are still selling more than whatever Dc put out each week at least on Amazon.

Yeah sometimes bad runs sell outrageously but you can't use the example of X-Men no 1 as an example since those sales weren't much to do with the story quality.

[dietrich]

Well Okay true sales dont indicate its good. But its definitely more of an indication that its good then that its bad.

Someone mentioned Identity Crisis earlier. And I've seen it shit on here before. And people take a very small sample size from here and call that the gospel. But Identity Crisis has over 20,000 reviews on Goodreads and had a sold 4 star out of 5 rating.

SO who do I believe? Is it an event that is enjoyed and liked? This forum says no. But a very small sample size says that, loudly.

Or do I believe 20k reviews from goodreads...

True maybe neither is a great metric but I lean towards believing that in general terms Goodreads fan base is morr reliable then maybe 100 vocal people here.

Now trades recieve more ratings then singles on goodreads but im gonna generally pay over all more attention to that larger fan base of reviews then people here.

Dark crisis is still to new to get the best metric on what people think. But frankly it wont matter. I still enjoyed it and no matter what people say you guys will hate it.

Thats totally fine. DARK crisis certainly isnt a perfect event. But i enjoyed the journey and art and Liked it enough that I wanna reread it.

We may never get exact numbers for sales and even if we do you'll discount that anyhow.

So ive said all I can say. I read to relax and enjoy myself. Not to be a harsh critic and I definitely dont hate read like it appears some wanna do here.

This is all im gonna say on this. Time to move onto a more productive convo.

I also enjoyed Dark Crisis.

[dietrich]

Sales aren't a measure of quality and they don't indicate quality either...that's just a flat fact.

Heck, in terms of comic sales that's even more so as the sales don't even represent end user purchases, just what is being ordered(and even then, just what's being ordered by a small sample of stores).

I've never met someone who wasn't aware that Goodreads was an absolutely terrible source of reviews for actual readers before. I was pretty certain that anyone with any interest in reading, whether it be comics,novels or non-fiction knew that Goodreads was almost entirely corporate shill. It lost all its credibilty nearly a decade ago when it was bought by Amazon and has been a cesspool ever since.

I guess it really is possible to learn something new everyday.

It's totally fine to like something.

It's also fine not to like something.

What isn't fine is trying to pretend one's opinion is more valid than another's, especially when the "proof"is just a string of very obvious logical fallacies(appealing to a false authority and band wagoning)

Pretty much every comic reviews sites these days are just shills. It's outrageous how they bend over backwards to put a good spin on some of the worst garbage printed.

It can be funny seeing a reviewer try to find something positive or explain bad takes.