Avengers vs X-Men

[Marvelman]

What grated on me is how outmatched the X-Men were until the Phoenix Five arrived. It was ridiculous! The Thing beat Namor, a character who has successfully taken on the entire FF! Red Hulk beat Colossus/Juggernaut. Iron Man beat Magneto by re-directing the gravity of Jupiter at him! I realize that sounds great, but it means that Iron Man's powers are whatever a writer says they are at the time! Who writes this stuff anyways?

[Ambaryerno]

Who writes this stuff anyways?

Bendis.

10char

[Askani's Flame]

So many thoughts I share with other posters but this comment:

AvX only works if you ignore pretty much EVERY story about the Phoenix after DPS. Rachel had to be almost completely cut out because her very EXISTENCE punches a hole in the plot so big you can drive a Helicarrier through it.

is key. Everything that was the Phoenix Force prior to the Iron Man mini (Iron Age: Alpha) while not always in sync with each other did have levels of continuity and understanding of previous hosts. Jean. Rachel. Feron. QQ. The Cuckoos. The concept of the Phoenix Force as sentient cosmic being with overall good intentions to the universe. All of those existed. And then the start of the Avengers line co-opting Phoenix Force with this mini and moreso with AvX. AvX removed all historical positive interactions the Phoenix Force or a Phoenix host (namely Rachel) had had with the MU and the Avengers since the Dark Phoenix Saga (which as a reminder NO AVENGER MINUS BEAST was part of) for the mere sake of creating a narrative that the Phoenix Force is a destructive force of chaos. So with Rachel being an active member of the X-Men who had a LONG history of positive use and control of the Force, she was relegated to the X-Men spin-off books mainly with cameo appearances in the actual main series. It was even noted by Captain Britain in an Avengers book that Rachel had control of the Phoenix in a different way than Jean had. Or did during the Morrison run (which was completely ignored). It was a very failed event where the Avengers chose to listen to turncoat Wolverine as the premiere expert on all things Phoenix, instead of consulting Rachel. Or even Storm who had a better understanding than Wolverine did (but because Aaron had given him a brief portion of the PF from a gun in a weird Spider-Man mini he knows all).

All and all for me it showed that Marvel as a company was more than ok with stealing concepts and villainizing the line that kept the company afloat while everything else was mediocre in the 90's for the sole aspect of making the Avengers feel as heroic and important as they were becoming in the movies. But their actions in the books were more villainous that how the X-Men were portrayed to be: Claiming to come to talk in peace but bringing a helicarrier full of heroes to attack the X-Men and kidnap a teenager; recruiting Xavier (who was on the outs with the current X-Men) to lay traps against his students and to take out/apprehend/incarcerate Rachel who was deemed a high threat; constantly attack the Phoenix Five and claim they were ruining the world when they were at fault for creating them;

And then there was the Spider-Man is a better trainer on hosting the Phoenix Force than Cyclops or again Rachel (who was even sidelined in the X-books from interacting with Hope); the never-before-known history of Iron Fist into the Phoenix mythos with a random red-headed Asian woman Fonjean...I mean Fonji who herself was the Iron Fist and a Phoenix host (who has never been brought up again). So much nonsense to then include Wanda as using her powers to again destroy potential mutants by destroying the Phoenix Force.

the whole event was a marketing ploy to erode the X-Men in the eyes of causal readers and push the narrative that the Avengers know what's best for the planet-mutants be damned cuz we don't give a eff about you.

[ChronoRogue]

What grated on me is how outmatched the X-Men were until the Phoenix Five arrived. It was ridiculous! The Thing beat Namor, a character who has successfully taken on the entire FF! Red Hulk beat Colossus/Juggernaut. Iron Man beat Magneto by re-directing the gravity of Jupiter at him! I realize that sounds great, but it means that Iron Man's powers are whatever a writer says they are at the time! Who writes this stuff anyways?

It's just PIS with these things tbh. In Inhumans vs X-Men, I remember a scene where Medusa was somehow managed to either sneak up on Betsy or Betsy allowed herself to get close despite a) being a telepath and b) having telekinesis.

[Maestro 216]

So many thoughts I share with other posters but this comment:



is key. Everything that was the Phoenix Force prior to the Iron Man mini (Iron Age: Alpha) while not always in sync with each other did have levels of continuity and understanding of previous hosts. Jean. Rachel. Feron. QQ. The Cuckoos. The concept of the Phoenix Force as sentient cosmic being with overall good intentions to the universe. All of those existed. And then the start of the Avengers line co-opting Phoenix Force with this mini and moreso with AvX. AvX removed all historical positive interactions the Phoenix Force or a Phoenix host (namely Rachel) had had with the MU and the Avengers since the Dark Phoenix Saga (which as a reminder NO AVENGER MINUS BEAST was part of) for the mere sake of creating a narrative that the Phoenix Force is a destructive force of chaos. So with Rachel being an active member of the X-Men who had a LONG history of positive use and control of the Force, she was relegated to the X-Men spin-off books mainly with cameo appearances in the actual main series. It was even noted by Captain Britain in an Avengers book that Rachel had control of the Phoenix in a different way than Jean had. Or did during the Morrison run (which was completely ignored). It was a very failed event where the Avengers chose to listen to turncoat Wolverine as the premiere expert on all things Phoenix, instead of consulting Rachel. Or even Storm who had a better understanding than Wolverine did (but because Aaron had given him a brief portion of the PF from a gun in a weird Spider-Man mini he knows all).

All and all for me it showed that Marvel as a company was more than ok with stealing concepts and villainizing the line that kept the company afloat while everything else was mediocre in the 90's for the sole aspect of making the Avengers feel as heroic and important as they were becoming in the movies. But their actions in the books were more villainous that how the X-Men were portrayed to be: Claiming to come to talk in peace but bringing a helicarrier full of heroes to attack the X-Men and kidnap a teenager; recruiting Xavier (who was on the outs with the current X-Men) to lay traps against his students and to take out/apprehend/incarcerate Rachel who was deemed a high threat; constantly attack the Phoenix Five and claim they were ruining the world when they were at fault for creating them;

And then there was the Spider-Man is a better trainer on hosting the Phoenix Force than Cyclops or again Rachel (who was even sidelined in the X-books from interacting with Hope); the never-before-known history of Iron Fist into the Phoenix mythos with a random red-headed Asian woman Fonjean...I mean Fonji who herself was the Iron Fist and a Phoenix host (who has never been brought up again). So much nonsense to then include Wanda as using her powers to again destroy potential mutants by destroying the Phoenix Force.

the whole event was a marketing ploy to erode the X-Men in the eyes of causal readers and push the narrative that the Avengers know what's best for the planet-mutants be damned cuz we don't give a eff about you.

I do find it funny Echo of all people is now Phoenix's host.

[Askani's Flame]

I do find it funny Echo of all people is now Phoenix's host.

I mean the Phoenix is a Marvel concept and essentially managed by the Avengers now so sure. I'm surprised they haven't given it to Wanda yet....

[Saithor]

Do I like being reminded of a comic by a man who I think ruined the Avengers ruining them even further while kicking off a dumb fandom war that has made being a fan of both franchises a major pain as I watch both sides pummel each other and endure stupid headcannon’s like “Cap killed Avalaunche in Uncanny Avengers”? No. Not really. Dumb event

Also goddamnit Bendis

[Saithor]

I mean the Phoenix is a Marvel concept and essentially managed by the Avengers now so sure. I'm surprised they haven't given it to Wanda yet....

They realize the sheer rage from the X-fandom would probably obliterate a continent if that ever happened.

[Askani's Flame]

They realize the sheer rage from the X-fandom would probably obliterate a continent if that ever happened.

If the rage from AvX and everything coming out of Secret Wars through the end of IvX didn't phase them, nothing will and I'm sure it has been brought up already.

[useridgoeshere]

Do I like being reminded of a comic by a man who I think ruined the Avengers ruining them even further while kicking off a dumb fandom war that has made being a fan of both franchises a major pain as I watch both sides pummel each other and endure stupid headcannon’s like “Cap killed Avalaunche in Uncanny Avengers”? No. Not really. Dumb event

Also goddamnit Bendis

That's me! And if you don't like that, you have no sense of humor. It's hilarious.

[Baron of Faltine]

What grated on me is how outmatched the X-Men were until the Phoenix Five arrived. It was ridiculous! The Thing beat Namor, a character who has successfully taken on the entire FF! Red Hulk beat Colossus/Juggernaut. Iron Man beat Magneto by re-directing the gravity of Jupiter at him! I realize that sounds great, but it means that Iron Man's powers are whatever a writer says they are at the time! Who writes this stuff anyways?

So far thebonly satisfying battle was Daredevil vs Psylocke, mostly because fighting telepathic sexy ninja is Monday for Matt Murdock(Tuesday is fat mob boss, Thursday stiltman, Wednesday saving and failing to save a poor unfortunate soul whose grim fate mirror Matt's recent miserable life, Friday soem colorful hitman with dark unfortunate sympathetic past that will make Matt more miserable for having won, Saturday crossover that will end up with Matt having to remember the other hero that they are you know heroes and feel miserable doing so. SUNDAY is girlfriend time.....😱
Also Spidey holding back and being pummeled by phonixed Colossus, was actually kind of cool.

The others feel so....weird and oddly bland, like they could have been background fight and won't have changed much
(Note do not undersell Ben he is one of the most strongest being in MU( once time there were him, Colossus and Hulk...OK Gladiator too) nowadays floating around 15th place Namor is 4 places behind because his dependency upon water, Colossus normally is same level as the thing, but with Juggernaut powers he is close to Hulk, who still remain up there, alone in his being strongest , followed by Thor-albeit blue marvel is always close..usually 3rd or 4th depending on the existing you chose.)

[Gnostic]

AvX only works if you ignore pretty much EVERY story about the Phoenix after DPS. Rachel had to be almost completely cut out because her very EXISTENCE punches a hole in the plot so big you can drive a Helicarrier through it.

AvX also contradicted the DPS itself.

[Huntsman Spider]

AvX also contradicted the DPS itself.

Yeah, because in the original Dark Phoenix Saga, Jean/Phoenix didn't just snap and become Dark Phoenix one day; it took a sustained campaign of psychic manipulation and tampering on the parts of Mastermind and Emma Frost for Jean/Phoenix to succumb and then snap when she realized she was being manipulated and tricked by them. AvX made it sound like Dark Phoenix was an inevitable outcome of being possessed by or bonded with the Phoenix Force, though funny enough, the Avengers' continued antagonism toward the Phoenix Five even when they were using their newfound power to help the world instead of burning it to a cinder immediately for all humanity had done to mutants over the years more than likely sped it up.

[Gnostic]

Yeah, because in the original Dark Phoenix Saga, Jean/Phoenix didn't just snap and become Dark Phoenix one day; it took a sustained campaign of psychic manipulation and tampering on the parts of Mastermind and Emma Frost for Jean/Phoenix to succumb and then snap when she realized she was being manipulated and tricked by them. AvX made it sound like Dark Phoenix was an inevitable outcome of being possessed by or bonded with the Phoenix Force, though funny enough, the Avengers' continued antagonism toward the Phoenix Five even when they were using their newfound power to help the world instead of burning it to a cinder immediately for all humanity had done to mutants over the years more than likely sped it up.

Yeah, it felt like the writers got that idea from X-Men: The Last Stand.

[Winter_fury]

It sucked the avengers office basically came in and highjacked what should’ve have been the conclusion to hope storyline and messiah era.