Avengers vs X-Men

[RachelGrey]

Why didn't any writer remember that Rachel Summers had more control over the damn Phoenix Force than anyone else.

Rachel should have just came in and seized the Phoenix Force and then forced the Avengers and X-Men to sign a peace treaty, end of story...
Then Rachel tells them, "Do you want to see why you shouldn't fight each other, let me send you to my world where the Sentinels killed the X-Men, Avengers, and Fantastic Four at the same time to eliminate anyone who could challenge the machines!"
"Here let me send you to the graveyard of heroes on my planet so you can get over your stupid conflict!"

[Huntsman Spider]

The Avengers acted like idiots as a group(with the exception fo Spidey who, apart his usual mentor role -you know power and responsibility thing- was the most "WTF are wedoing here?! Alos LOGAN WATF AREYOU PLANNIG TO DO YOU PSYCHO!!! WE DO NOT KILL KIDS IS SUPERHERO ABC!! WTF!!!!") X-men were more idiots individually, each one in their specifically unique "jerkass" way . Infact now that i said out loud...The avengers with the exceptions of an onliners here and there, outside the "leaders" Cap, Iron man and Iron Fist oddly -and of course Spider Man actin like MU Jimny Cricket and being squashed for this, did not had significant dialogue, or memorable impact whatsoever. They could as well being anonymous SHIELD agents for what they did.
By contrast all the X-men has fully dialogue and interactions, that made them look....kind of dumb and jerkass...
Seriously....AvX was...weirdly build...it lacked....coherence and solid story. Everythign is confusign and forgettable but some kickass fight here and there(still better than Original Sin and the blue ball tease that ended up being Age of Ultron...I wante Ultron vs. MU NOT LOGAN AND SUE EXCELLENT ADVENTURE!!!).

Good point about Spidey as the (ignored) conscience of the Avengers, which might explain why he let his membership with them lapse in more recent years.

Why didn't any writer remember that Rachel Summers had more control over the damn Phoenix Force than anyone else.

Rachel should have just came in and seized the Phoenix Force and then forced the Avengers and X-Men to sign a peace treaty, end of story...
Then Rachel tells them, "Do you want to see why you shouldn't fight each other, let me send you to my world where the Sentinels killed the X-Men, Avengers, and Fantastic Four at the same time to eliminate anyone who could challenge the machines!"
"Here let me send you to the graveyard of heroes on my planet so you can get over your stupid conflict!"

I like that idea. That should have been what happened. And yes, Sentinels killing or capturing everyone with powers, regardless of whether or not they had an X-gene . . . in retrospect, the original Civil War could have foreshadowed that as well, within the in-universe chronology of the MU, the idea that eventually humankind as a whole would turn against everyone and anyone with superpowers, seeing them all as dangerous freaks and abominations threatening their very existence and future.

[plasmaintights]

So I've recently started a complete re-read of this storyline, I have my own thoughts of it mainly that in the end it really made the X-Men look bad in particular Cyclops. But what are you thoughts on it? What could have been changed to make it a better story or been done differently in the same story?

It could have been written without making most of the characters one-half dumber than they typically were in their own books. Captain America not being in dialog with Cyclops ahead of showing up was ridiculous. It was, in comics time, about a minute after Cap arranged for Cyclops getting a presidential medal of freedom for leading the x-men's efforts to fight Bastion and save, at least, the whole Bay Area from destruction. It was an absolutely unnecessary conflict that ignored decades of all these characters working together in different ways. I still thought there were cool moments (I have a sentimental spot for Hulk saying "Hulk will smash for you") but it ultimately felt really cynical in several directions.

[cam18]

I was fully on the Avengers side for that.

Phoenix was coming to earth destroying everything in it's path and Cyclops was going on like a fanatic about how Phoenix was their one true savior and it was coming back to earth to do something it had never done before nor showed the ability or desire to do. And in the meantime, Cyclops thought the best way to get get Hope ready for the Phoenix was to beat the crap out of her and make her hate him.

Even prior to the Phoenix showing up, Cyclops had been showing signs of becoming less and less reasonable.

Wolverine was the only member of the X-men that actually showed any sense during this. The guy had BEEN Phoenix before, he knew had bad things could get, yet Scott seemed to want to go out of his way to make sure things turned out as bad as possible.

This makes sense because the X-Men were written heavily OOC the entire event and significant parts of X lore where either changed or flat out ignored to push this story.

[Agent Z]

1) I think the Avengers were egregiously mislead by Tony Stark and Wolverine. And because of that they made some errors in how they handled this from the start. That is the crux of these awful her vs hero stories. Because when a team of heroes, the Avengers, is told the Phoenix is coming to Earth and has been affecting other planets (good and bad) en route, they should have immediately reached out to X-Men leaders (as they were divided) and those with intimate knowledge of the PF. They had Ororo as a member and Logan in their midst. Ignoring everything else on the word of Wolverine, who was a turncoat in this series, the Avengers decided that in order to get Hope away from Scott they would bring an assault team to Utopia to get her. Knowing that talks might break down because Logan convinced them they would. This is why Storm left the Avengers and went to the JGS to warn them. Based off a biased alternative timeline hijinks Tony had, and Wolverine's clouded judgement for all things Jean-related, they attacked. And the writers needed to have a "compelling" event. Later I think the Avengers truly antagonizing the Phoenix Five was problematic but I, as should the Avengers, hold Tony and Logan accountable for the nonsense of the series. Now I do think that bringing Hope off-world was a reasonable conclusion based off the loudest voices of Tony and Logan, but given that Logan convinced Steve that Scott would never go for jointly bringing Hope off world, it set the stage for Scott to be adamant and Steve be rigid and the fight begin.

The Phoenix Force was also restoring planets as well, not just razing. But that was new for the Phoenix Force as it did not do that in the past unless it was a Dark Phoenix type scenario where it was consuming stars for energy (like in the DPS or Galactus). The whole destroying planets for the sake of destroying planets was brand new and created to fit the narrative.

They were not "barely familiar" with Rachel. They all had fought beside her during Secret Wars II and knew of her exploits in Excalibur. The FF knew of her well, as well as other Avengers. Rachel was ignored and sidelined t make the narrative "work". I think that's my overall issue with any of these contrived battles of hero: Plot Induced Stupidity or Plot Induced Amnesia. Both have to be enacted in order for things to "work" for writers and editors.

They had been told the Phoenix was destroying planets on its way to Earth. There is no way to spin that into a positive. And what would consulting Rachel or Storm accomplish? They would have either been unable to give an explanation for the Phoenix's destructive actions or tried to excuse it.

The fight started because Steve asked to take Hope off world and Scott responded with violence first. And Steve wasn't as rigid as you're claiming. He was trying to work with Scott and the latter wouldn't hear of it. And Steve was against Wolverine killing Hope. In fact, Logan was the only one who thought killing Hope was a good idea, so his actions can hardly be a reflection on either faction.

One event from years ago (decades in the real world) and a few stories on her exploits. It's not like they knew her personally. For all they knew, Rachel's case was a fluke.

[Agent Z]

Everyone likes to use the Phoenix Force was destroying worlds as an excuse, like that still didn't make the Avengers' behaviour messed up.

They went to the island looking for a fight.
They're main thing wwas wanting to kidnap a minor.
They are the one who created the PENIS 5.
They are the ones that provoked the Phoenix 5.

The X-Men acted like idiots too, but most of their actions were defensive or in response to what the Avengers were doing.

It would've been better if they showed them try to do something together the first issue and then have them disagree and begin the VS from there. And the Avengers whole point falls apart because at the end they did what the X-Men were planning to do from the start, train Hope to accept the Force.

The Avengers did not show up looking for a fight. They expected one and Cyclops proved them right by throwing the first punch.

Hope wanted to go with the Avengers and the P5 tried to stop her.

The X-Men bear as much responsibility for the Phoenix 5 as the Avengers did given they kept interfering with the Avengers' plan to stop the Phoenix from destroying Earth.

I also think people greatly overstate just how much of the Avengers' attacking the 5 had to do with them going dark. We saw them showing signs of corruption independent of that. Even Reed Richards pointed out that the 5 would go corrupt eventually. His concern was that the Avengers would speed up the process, not that they would be the sole cause of it.

[rcaguy]

The Avengers did not show up looking for a fight. They expected one and Cyclops proved them right by throwing the first punch.

Hope wanted to go with the Avengers and the P5 tried to stop her.

The X-Men bear as much responsibility for the Phoenix 5 as the Avengers did given they kept interfering with the Avengers' plan to stop the Phoenix from destroying Earth.

I also think people greatly overstate just how much of the Avengers' attacking the 5 had to do with them going dark. We saw them showing signs of corruption independent of that. Even Reed Richards pointed out that the 5 would go corrupt eventually. His concern was that the Avengers would speed up the process, not that they would be the sole cause of it.

Wrong. The Avengers started the fight by showing up. They had a shitty attitude and people like Reed picked up on it. The avengers were also engaging in a Self-fulfilling prophecy which they tend to do on a fairly regular basis.

[Spiderfan001]

The Avengers did not show up looking for a fight. They expected one and Cyclops proved them right by throwing the first punch.

Hope wanted to go with the Avengers and the P5 tried to stop her.

The X-Men bear as much responsibility for the Phoenix 5 as the Avengers did given they kept interfering with the Avengers' plan to stop the Phoenix from destroying Earth.

I also think people greatly overstate just how much of the Avengers' attacking the 5 had to do with them going dark. We saw them showing signs of corruption independent of that. Even Reed Richards pointed out that the 5 would go corrupt eventually. His concern was that the Avengers would speed up the process, not that they would be the sole cause of it.

People keep forgetting that phoenix was in this event a clear "bad" force, as much as I hate the PIS it can't be ignored

From everything w/ Nova to the prophecy to what Logan informed Cap the Avengers had all the reason to stop the phoenix and more

As for what happened w/ the 5, we already saw them turn darker in many ways and they were ticking time bombs waiting to go off.And w/ people like Magik, Namor and Emma being the hosts that would be a disaster.

[Agent Z]

Wrong. The Avengers started the fight by showing up. They had a shitty attitude and people like Reed picked up on it. The avengers were also engaging in a Self-fulfilling prophecy which they tend to do on a fairly regular basis.

And that's how the fight started.

[Agent Z]

First, Scott had information from Cable that the future would go to absolute hell if the Avengers prevented Hope from getting the Phoenix.

Which Scott never mentioned once to the Avengers. I don't even think he told the other X-Men about it. Either way, it doesn't change the fact he went about it in the worst way possible.

I also notice that X-fans don't seem to have an issue with Cable attacking the Avengers unprovoked in X-Sanction. I'm sure that played a part in the Avengers' attitude during this event.

[Baron of Faltine]

Wrong. The Avengers started the fight by showing up. They had a shitty attitude and people like Reed picked up on it. The avengers were also engaging in a Self-fulfilling prophecy which they tend to do on a fairly regular basis.

As I said before, and I repeat it now:
Avengers acted poorly and in unwise way more as group, highlighting the team main weakness. Excessive group thinking, and certain tendency to favor certain "cliques" within the group. This was evident in AvX but was horrifying obvious when the Avengers dealer with sudden pregnancy of Carol Dangers all those years ago. In fact is kind of sad trend for Avengers where the team , or better the appointed "clique" not necessary thh whole group or the official leader, decide a thing, and this blow off In their face. Because the Avengers are not a dysfunctional family, they are bunch of dysfunctional coworker...essentially "the office" with superpowers (in MCU is more obvious, but really it had been like that forever I comic)

X-men on the other side are a VEEEERRRRY dysfunctional family, enlarged more to ancient clan way, with lot of strong headed individuals, obvious considering the great value the mutants put on being unique and personal responsibility ( mostly because they know is unfair for groups to suffer for individuals misbehaviour). Of course this led to arising of certain....Ego...amongst them most powerful and capable mutants. On bad daytime lead to "home superior should be allowed to do whatever **** the want to whoever they want all the times, regardless of petty thing like laws, decency, or morality"..thankfully despite what one cam think this is uncommon
But still most mutants , expecially those tasked to lead these bunch of strong headed, at time childishly egotistical superpowered people, always behave as they were right, not allowing themselves the minimal doubt. A necessity, as given what they are and their history, doubt could doom them all. Sadly this lead them at times to behave more hostile than they should, and coming out a bit(not much really) like a cult. Or at least more paranoid they should be(but paranoia in MU,be it mutant, mutate, spider totem, Hulk, godly avatar if not godly being, and expecially mystics...IS JUSTIFIED CONSIDERING THAT THE EMBODIMENT OF DREAMS, FEAR, ANXIETY AND DEATH EXIST AND HATE US ALL)
So yeah it was power keg

[cam18]

The very narrative of the PF just destroying planets for no reason on its way to earth is a very flawed interpretation of the PF its purpose and how its got corrupted.....AvX was doomed from the start with its very premise.

[jpmst17]

Pretty awful event due to characters being written completely irrationally. Scott and Steve could have absolutely just had a conversation about the situation, like they have for pretty much everything else in the history of their friendship. Logan was trash in this series too. So much bad writing, but I don't think Scott came out of it horribly, but Wolverine, Beast and Captain America sure did

[rcaguy]

And that's how the fight started.

You show up on somebody's doorstep with a shitty attuide begging them to punch you in the face and you expect to walk away from it?

[jwatson]

And that's how the fight started.

These are the worst kinds of people to me, not you perse but those who antagonize the suffering just so they can get the type of reaction cap got there and then those who don't think contextually simply label it as first hit. The problem with A vs X for me for me was simple, you can't not be there in universe and don't do anything for the oppressed people in your own universe and then foam at the mouth to jump on them when there one glimmer of hope shows up and act like your the voice of reason. That feeling was exhaberated by the real world hypocrisy i saw from fans who were at multiple times saying well you can't tell mutant stories in avengers books because then it becomes about them but then here they are always with a story ready to fight the in universe oppressed. Civil War, Registration, and on and on, like where is the energy then? So purely in universe the set up was awful and the avengers didn't earn their voice in theis story, there was no buildup and in real life people used it as true power porn in my opinion. It's okay to beat up on the oppressed if they shoot lasers.