Avengers vs X-Men

[Agent Z]

You show up on somebody's doorstep with a shitty attuide begging them to punch you in the face and you expect to walk away from it?

Try reading the comic again. Steve wasn't the one with a bad attitude.

[jwatson]

And to take it a step further in universe we saw the avengers show more grace and humility to doctor doom, red skull, to many groups and many factions who were actually just flat out doing wrong stuff. So as someone who reads both sides and just coming off all the loss mutants experienced and not once on the avengers books did they show up for the main part, the x-books at the very beginning did try to show some of them at least attempting but after the whole civil war there was a clear divide between the two lines and so for years there wasn't much positive interaction and then out of the blue the avengers show up because phoenix is on the way and instead of calling, talking, they show up fully armored after having a meeting about mutants without mutants which i felt the only thing written well was storm getting up and bouncing. So the story itself on paper wasn't bad but in universe it made no sense and came out of nowhere in the sense i read dark avengers, new avengers, thor, jane, the main mu was not f)$)$ing with mutants through that seven year period from 2005- to like 2012. You can just go back and read the actual comics from both sides and straight up it made no sense and made the avengers look like villains.

And thats without bringing up stuff already brought up to make this forced story work. Like rachel, who i guess they felt giving her the moment of jobbing thor was suppose to erase the very idea she was phoenix after Dark Phoenix and never destroyed a planet. That alone if you are in universe, and the character was right there makes one go "Well why are we fighting right now." And then there is the question like if mutant stories take so much away from avenger stories or they can't be there in a story to help them then why go out of your way to do a story where you go after an already grieving and decimated group of people and expect to be the hero. Then when they got gassed, ya'll disappeared again. The only connection the avengers and cap etc have right now outside of wolverine has been done in the x-books with care and kindness because they had the time and it didn't take away from the books. The only reason we know Cap cares about an oppressed group in 2021 (reffering to the stories last year that referenced them not that i think it's 2021 lol)is because those same books sad it. In a shared universe that's not really that great.

[Agent Z]

These are the worst kinds of people to me, not you perse but those who antagonize the suffering just so they can get the type of reaction cap got there and then those who don't think contextually simply label it as first hit. The problem with A vs X for me for me was simple, you can't not be there in universe and don't do anything for the oppressed people in your own universe and then foam at the mouth to jump on them when there one glimmer of hope shows up and act like your the voice of reason. That feeling was exhaberated by the real world hypocrisy i saw from fans who were at multiple times saying well you can't tell mutant stories in avengers books because then it becomes about them but then here they are always with a story ready to fight the in universe oppressed. Civil War, Registration, and on and on, like where is the energy then? So purely in universe the set up was awful and the avengers didn't earn their voice in theis story, there was no buildup and in real life people used it as true power porn in my opinion. It's okay to beat up on the oppressed if they shoot lasers.

The Avengers are told that a cosmic entity is destroying planets and is headed for Earth next, specifically targeting a teenage girl. Steve goes to the X-Men and tries to convince Scott that the planet is at risk and they want to work together to protect it. Scott gives a laughably weak argument that the Phoenix is mutantkind's last hope despite showing neither the desire nor the ability to restore the X-gene up until the end of the story. Considering that this was after Cable tried to kill the Avengers, their response is actually pretty restrained but I guess that doesn't matter.

The only reason the Avengers look like jackbooted idiots is because this story ignores much of the Phoenix's convoluted and contradictory history. That doesn't change the fact that in-universe they were trying to stop the planet from being destroyed. And for all the flak the Avengers get for not understanding the Phoenix, the X-Men themselves don't act like they have a clue what this thing is like either.

The X-Men's status as an oppressed group can only excuse so much of their actions. If we're going to go down that rabbit hole, the Avengers can ask where they are every time Kang, Galactus or some other villain causes trouble. To say nothing of profoundly insulting moments like Kitty Pryde using the n-word or Wolverine telling Luke Cage - black man who was unjustly incarcerated and experimented on - that he will never know what it's like to be oppressed.

[jwatson]

The Avengers are told that a cosmic entity is destroying planets and is headed for Earth next, specifically targeting a teenage girl. Steve goes to the X-Men and tries to convince Scott that the planet is at risk and they want to work together to protect it. Scott gives a laughably weak argument that the Phoenix is mutantkind's last hope despite showing neither the desire nor the ability to restore the X-gene up until the end of the story. Considering that this was after Cable tried to kill the Avengers, their response is actually pretty restrained but I guess that doesn't matter.

The only reason the Avengers look like jackbooted idiots is because this story ignores much of the Phoenix's convoluted and contradictory history. That doesn't change the fact that in-universe they were trying to stop the planet from being destroyed. And for all the flak the Avengers get for not understanding the Phoenix, the X-Men themselves don't act like they have a clue what this thing is like either.

The X-Men's status as an oppressed group can only excuse so much of their actions. If we're going to go down that rabbit hole, the Avengers can ask where they are every time Kang, Galactus or some other villain causes trouble. To say nothing of profoundly insulting moments like Kitty Pryde using the n-word or Wolverine telling Luke Cage - black man who was unjustly incarcerated and experimented on - that he will never know what it's like to be oppressed.

So are we going to assume no jewish person has ever said the n word EVER in the history existence? Are we suppose to cancel the significance and horror of the history they endured as a people because of the choices of individual people who happen to be jewish? so i would ask how far do you want to take it? or how far do you want to delve into the idea of fiction vs reality and where they can and where they shouldn't blend? or oppression?

[Saithor]

Here we go again with this crap. I love how we have to act like this crappy event, which pretty much everyone considers to be hot flaming trash, is cannon every time it’s time to bash on the Avengers around here. Which is quite literally every day of the week. This is why I gave up on posting here as often, it feels like you’re not allowed to be a fan of the wider marvel world and X-men at the same time because a contingent of X-fans has built up the wider marvel universe as the ultimate villains against mutantkind.

Seriously, why we have to treat an event penned by one of the worse Avengers writers of this century as if it’s the defining moment of Mutant relations with them is more a reflection on the fandom than the comics at this point.

[Baron of Faltine]

So are we going to assume no jewish person has ever said the n word EVER in the history existence? Are we suppose to cancel the significance and horror of the history they endured as a people because of the choices of individual people who happen to be jewish? so i would ask how far do you want to take it? or how far do you want to delve into the idea of fiction vs reality and where they can and where they shouldn't blend? or oppression?

By the way the Kitty Pride N-word moment had to be contextualised within the story, where Phil, the guy antagonising her and wit who she used the n word, was doing something suspicious, was openly against her for being a mutant and turned out he and his friends were responsible for soem bombs. And yes she was little bit, over the nudge what with Magneto hanging around at the begin of his "redeeming phase", the Beyonder bombing on planet, httjngnon boom boom(and later snuffing out the new mutants in way very similar to Superboy prime e snuffing out teen Titans).

[Saithor]

The Avengers are told that a cosmic entity is destroying planets and is headed for Earth next, specifically targeting a teenage girl. Steve goes to the X-Men and tries to convince Scott that the planet is at risk and they want to work together to protect it. Scott gives a laughably weak argument that the Phoenix is mutantkind's last hope despite showing neither the desire nor the ability to restore the X-gene up until the end of the story. Considering that this was after Cable tried to kill the Avengers, their response is actually pretty restrained but I guess that doesn't matter.

The only reason the Avengers look like jackbooted idiots is because this story ignores much of the Phoenix's convoluted and contradictory history. That doesn't change the fact that in-universe they were trying to stop the planet from being destroyed. And for all the flak the Avengers get for not understanding the Phoenix, the X-Men themselves don't act like they have a clue what this thing is like either.

The X-Men's status as an oppressed group can only excuse so much of their actions. If we're going to go down that rabbit hole, the Avengers can ask where they are every time Kang, Galactus or some other villain causes trouble. To say nothing of profoundly insulting moments like Kitty Pryde using the n-word or Wolverine telling Luke Cage - black man who was unjustly incarcerated and experimented on - that he will never know what it's like to be oppressed.

Okay, wait. Where was the Luke Cage thing? Because if that actually happened, wow was whoever wrote that completely tone-deaf

[Baron of Faltine]

Here we go again with this crap. I love how we have to act like this crappy event, which pretty much everyone considers to be hot flaming trash, is cannon every time it’s time to bash on the Avengers around here. Which is quite literally every day of the week. This is why I gave up on posting here as often, it feels like you’re not allowed to be a fan of the wider marvel world and X-men at the same time because a contingent of X-fans has built up the wider marvel universe as the ultimate villains against mutantkind.

Seriously, why we have to treat an event penned by one of the worse Avengers writers of this century as if it’s the defining moment of Mutant relations with them is more a reflection on the fandom than the comics at this point.

Oh I know....is a consequence of this politic of putting fandom vs. fandom, just to raise attention toward a product that in all honestly most of the time is forgettable, because really, the only memorable thing this particular event left behind was the lingering bitter feelings between readers. Really most of the whole"Phoenix bad"? Completely ignored, expecially since now one of the avengers is host and apparently she is Thor's mom...yeahhh, still trying to wrap my mind around that...Hope Summers? First she got her "shtick stolen by teen Jean, then got ignored till now. And even now she is more than living macguffin that character. I think so far she had like what totalt of two or three page of dialogue? ....avengers and x-men seem to completely had forgotten the events passed, Scott killing Prof X? They are closer now than ever, and apparently people got madder at him more for fighting pollutionthant for Chucks death.

[marhawkman]

I like that idea. That should have been what happened. And yes, Sentinels killing or capturing everyone with powers, regardless of whether or not they had an X-gene . . . in retrospect, the original Civil War could have foreshadowed that as well, within the in-universe chronology of the MU, the idea that eventually humankind as a whole would turn against everyone and anyone with superpowers, seeing them all as dangerous freaks and abominations threatening their very existence and future.

Yeah, one version of it has it that Sentinels really don't care WHY you have power. Not a normal human? EXTERMINATE! or maybe lock up in slave camps.

[Baron of Faltine]

Yeah, one version of it has it that Sentinels really don't care WHY you have power. Not a normal human? EXTERMINATE! or maybe lock up in slave camps.

This was logically explained in that superhuman had extremely high chance to birth a mutants (before somehow ignored retconned...I mean now the child of superheroes can have powers but not necessary x-gene...even if powers manifest at puberty like usual...) so make sense for Sentinels attacking those who could generate more mutants. Of course usually this degenerate into "wipe out all who do not have a standard human dna according to our algorithm" and Sentinels algorithm is on par of YouTube....

[Spiderfan001]

Here we go again with this crap. I love how we have to act like this crappy event, which pretty much everyone considers to be hot flaming trash, is cannon every time it’s time to bash on the Avengers around here. Which is quite literally every day of the week. This is why I gave up on posting here as often, it feels like you’re not allowed to be a fan of the wider marvel world and X-men at the same time because a contingent of X-fans has built up the wider marvel universe as the ultimate villains against mutantkind.

Seriously, why we have to treat an event penned by one of the worse Avengers writers of this century as if it’s the defining moment of Mutant relations with them is more a reflection on the fandom than the comics at this point.

Spitting, so many X-fans act like you can't like anything else in the MU if you like X-men.Weird as heck

[Sutekh]

Yeah, one version of it has it that Sentinels really don't care WHY you have power. Not a normal human? EXTERMINATE! or maybe lock up in slave camps.

That was back in the 80s, when all the superhumans (who weren't mages or aliens or gods) derived their power from the Celestial tinkering adding the X-gene to humanity, such that a small percentage unlocked it naturally at puberty, and were called mutants, and a much larger percentage *could* have it unlocked artificially, by super-soldier serums or cosmic rays or gamma rays or Terragenesis or radioactive spider bites or chemical spills or whatnot, and were 'latent' mutants, with the potential for mutation, just needing a triggering agent to activate (and a third, smaller, segment of humanity that lacked the gene entirely, and the Sentinels regarded as 'pure', and allowed to breed).

These days, the thought that Spider-Man, the Hulk, the Fantastic Four, the entire Inhumans race, Savage Land mutates, etc. are effectively now mutants, just mutants who had their X-gene activated after puberty by some triggering agent, is apparently a no-no.

(And various former mutates have gotten origin changes as well. Carol Danvers was a human mutate, but is now part alien. Then again, the Kree are incapable of mutation, there was a whole storyline about it!, so her powers would, ironically, stem from her *human* side, if the writers had ever read comics from the 80s and 90s and knew any of this stuff...)

[Agent Z]

And to take it a step further in universe we saw the avengers show more grace and humility to doctor doom, red skull, to many groups and many factions who were actually just flat out doing wrong stuff.

I don't recall any Avengers, especially not Captain America, showing grace to someone like the Red Skull.

So as someone who reads both sides and just coming off all the loss mutants experienced and not once on the avengers books did they show up for the main part, the x-books at the very beginning did try to show some of them at least attempting but after the whole civil war there was a clear divide between the two lines and so for years there wasn't much positive interaction and then out of the blue the avengers show up because phoenix is on the way and instead of calling, talking, they show up fully armored after having a meeting about mutants without mutants which i felt the only thing written well was storm getting up and bouncing. So the story itself on paper wasn't bad but in universe it made no sense and came out of nowhere in the sense i read dark avengers, new avengers, thor, jane, the main mu was not f)$)$ing with mutants through that seven year period from 2005- to like 2012. You can just go back and read the actual comics from both sides and straight up it made no sense and made the avengers look like villains.

The story had a cosmic entity destroying planets on its way to Earth and the Avengers were trying to stop it. Why do you keep ignoring this part to make it about the Mutants being oppressed as if that is the Avengers' or the Avengers writers' fault?

And thats without bringing up stuff already brought up to make this forced story work. Like rachel, who i guess they felt giving her the moment of jobbing thor was suppose to erase the very idea she was phoenix after Dark Phoenix and never destroyed a planet. That alone if you are in universe, and the character was right there makes one go "Well why are we fighting right now."

I would really like it if someone could explain how Rachel was supposed to do anything about the fact the Phoenix was destroying planets.

And then there is the question like if mutant stories take so much away from avenger stories or they can't be there in a story to help them then why go out of your way to do a story where you go after an already grieving and decimated group of people and expect to be the hero.

They didn't go after mutants. They went after the X-men and only because they essentially acted like a doomsday cult after the Avengers extended an olive branch.

Then when they got gassed, ya'll disappeared again. The only connection the avengers and cap etc have right now outside of wolverine has been done in the x-books with care and kindness because they had the time and it didn't take away from the books. The only reason we know Cap cares about an oppressed group in 2021 (reffering to the stories last year that referenced them not that i think it's 2021 lol)is because those same books sad it. In a shared universe that's not really that great.

Captain America has expressed care for minority groups before 2021.

[Agent Z]

So are we going to assume no jewish person has ever said the n word EVER in the history existence?

Did I say such a thing?

Are we suppose to cancel the significance and horror of the history they endured as a people because of the choices of individual people who happen to be jewish?

No. However, you seem perfectly willing to ignore the damage and death the Phoenix has caused if we're sticking just to the X-Men.

so i would ask how far do you want to take it? or how far do you want to delve into the idea of fiction vs reality and where they can and where they shouldn't blend? or oppression?

What the hell are you talking about?

[Baron of Faltine]

That was back in the 80s, when all the superhumans (who weren't mages or aliens or gods) derived their power from the Celestial tinkering adding the X-gene to humanity, such that a small percentage unlocked it naturally at puberty, and were called mutants, and a much larger percentage *could* have it unlocked artificially, by super-soldier serums or cosmic rays or gamma rays or Terragenesis or radioactive spider bites or chemical spills or whatnot, and were 'latent' mutants, with the potential for mutation, just needing a triggering agent to activate (and a third, smaller, segment of humanity that lacked the gene entirely, and the Sentinels regarded as 'pure', and allowed to breed).

These days, the thought that Spider-Man, the Hulk, the Fantastic Four, the entire Inhumans race, Savage Land mutates, etc. are effectively now mutants, just mutants who had their X-gene activated after puberty by some triggering agent, is apparently a no-no.

(And various former mutates have gotten origin changes as well. Carol Danvers was a human mutate, but is now part alien. Then again, the Kree are incapable of mutation, there was a whole storyline about it!, so her powers would, ironically, stem from her *human* side, if the writers had ever read comics from the 80s and 90s and knew any of this stuff...)

Interesting enough there was a weird trend, with result not despicable and quire good at times I have ot admit, to make soem characters more tied to the mystical side of MU, rather than the science one(albeit had tk be said that in an universe like Marvels the line between science and magic is blurred at best) with the three oldest characters/teams Spidey, Hulk and FF all now tied to ubernatural mysterious entities beyond cosmic being...essentially choosen ones, not just random guys who had to make moral choice with the Hand the fate handed them.
Kind if weird