JSA / Justice Society of America Appreciation Thread 2022 version

[Dataweaver]

I would definitely like to see Wonder Woman’s history with the JSA restored. Not Hippolyta but Diana. Make her a founder or the founder of the team as a way to make up for her being their secretary in the 40s. The general public already knows Wonder Woman as an immortal who has been in “Man’s World” for over 100 years, so it’s fine if she was leading the charge against the Nazis in WWII.

The Wonder Woman 80 year special had a story in it which was intended to introduce what was to be the new continuity; and it presented Wonder Woman being the inspiration for the Golden Age heroes, the way Superman had been in reality. Short of finding a way to shoehorn Superman back into the timeline too, I think this is a fine idea to keep. Which is another reason I'm also fine with letting the secretary thing die.

[Dataweaver]

Would rather have Earth 0 JSA, Hypertime past JSA and Earth 2 JSA.

My main problem with that is the extreme similarity of the Earth 0 and Earth 2 JSAs; specifically, just about the only difference between them (at least, in terms of where they stood back in the Golden Age) was that Superman and Batman didn't exist at all on Earth 0 at that time, whereas they were mostly-absent honorary members on Earth 2. That really isn't that much of a difference to start from; and it only becomes a significant difference later on, when Earth 2's Robin and Power Girl join the JSA and are joined later by Huntress.

Oh: and there probably wouldn't be a Golden Age Steve Trevor; so no Lyta Trevor on Earth 0 either.

[D.Z]

Earth 0 JSA has most of the old JSA people gone and more legacies added later.

Earth 2 JSA would have no other Earth characters making it more diff than Earth 0

[CaptCleghorn]

My main problem with that is the extreme similarity of the Earth 0 and Earth 2 JSAs; specifically, just about the only difference between them (at least, in terms of where they stood back in the Golden Age) was that Superman and Batman didn't exist at all on Earth 0 at that time, whereas they were mostly-absent honorary members on Earth 2. That really isn't that much of a difference to start from; and it only becomes a significant difference later on, when Earth 2's Robin and Power Girl join the JSA and are joined later by Huntress.

Oh: and there probably wouldn't be a Golden Age Steve Trevor; so no Lyta Trevor on Earth 0 either.

I think the JSA taking in the dimensional orphaned PG and Huntress makes sense. They're the team PG and Huntress would be most familiar with. And even if the characters didn't remember their original Earth Two (I use a spelled out Two for pre-Crisis) adventures, the presence of Superman and Batman in the JL might introduce an awkwardness the JSA would not have.

[Dataweaver]

Earth 0 JSA has most of the old JSA people gone and more legacies added later.

Earth 2 JSA would have no other Earth characters making it more diff than Earth 0

We've actually seen a possibility of the Earth 2 JSA; only, they called themselves the Justice Society Infinity. It wouldn't surprise me if the Infinite Frontier Earth 2 we briefly saw was in fact the pre-Flashpoint Earth 2.

That said, I was a little underwhelmed by that version of Earth 2; it was a little too limited for my taste. I would have preferred it to have embraced the All-Star Squadron, a retcon of the original Earth 2 that resulted in it featuring more than just the Justice Society and its children. Basically, Earth 2 became home to practically all of the Golden Age heroes that DC owned: JSA, Seven Soldiers of Victory, Freedom Fighters, various other heroes from Quality and Fawcett Comics (sadly not including the Marvel family, despite Roy Thomas' intentions; though they were brought in via crossovers with Earth-S). And, of course, Infinity Inc. I wouldn't mind the newest version of Earth 2 bring “what if the Crisis on Infinite Earths had never happened, and the pre-Crisis All-Star Squadron hadn't been disrupted by it?”

On the other hand, I have no problem with the post-Crisis developments in the All-Star Squadron remaining as part of Earth-0's history: in particular, the Young All-Stars, who were created to be stand-ins for those Golden Age characters who were too similar to their modern counterparts to be kept around: Iron Munro was a stand-in for Superman, Flying Fox stood in for the the Golden Age Batman, Fury (Helena Kosmatos) replaced the Golden Age Wonder Woman, and Neptune Perkins was basically a reimagining of the Golden Age Aquaman.

If both worlds are to be around and used (which I wouldn't rule out, but don't expect to see), I'd like to see efforts to differentiate them as much as possible. Treat Earth 2 as a world that's still somewhere in the latter half of the 20th century — say, in the 70s — with the exact year left vague if possible; and have it advance slowly from there. On Earth 2, there's no difficulty with the vast gap between WWII and the present, because that gap isn't nearly so large and is unlikely to get significantly larger any time soon. Just like the original All-Star Squadron included the Justice Society but tended not to focus on them, do so with the new Earth 2 as well.

I'm of two minds as to whether the Helena Wayne to be featured in the upcoming JSA series should be from this Earth, or if she should be some sort of “Hypertime paradox” like Flashpoint's Thomas Wayne and Earth-0's Eobart Thawne and Power Girl. The former would open up one way to naturally bring this new Earth 2 into the story; the latter would feel more like this being the return of the original Helena Wayne.

[Dataweaver]

One other thing I wouldn't mind seeing: bring back Val-Zod as the last survivor (?) of the New 52's Earth 2 (Val-Zod, because he's one of the few Wonders from that Earth who doesn't have an Earth-0 counterpart in some form or another; and of those, he's by far the most interesting). Don't necessarily confirm that that Earth has been destroyed/rewritten/whatever; but suggest that it might have been, and that whatever happened to it during the final days of Death Metal, Val-Zod somehow got separated from it and wasn't around to see its final (?) fate. Have him land on Earth-0 meet the JSA, and represent a very different kind of legacy of the Justice Society. (And yes, he was briefly a member of a Justice Society, though admittedly only in the final pages of the final issue of Earth 2: Society).

This leaves open the possibility of revisiting that Earth sometime in the future, should anyone feel so inclined.

[CaptCleghorn]

If both worlds are to be around and used (which I wouldn't rule out, but don't expect to see), I'd like to see efforts to differentiate them as much as possible. Treat Earth 2 as a world that's still somewhere in the latter half of the 20th century — say, in the 70s — with the exact year left vague if possible; and have it advance slowly from there. On Earth 2, there's no difficulty with the vast gap between WWII and the present, because that gap isn't nearly so large and is unlikely to get significantly larger any time soon. Just like the original All-Star Squadron included the Justice Society but tended not to focus on them, do so with the new Earth 2 as well.

The original Earth Two had 10+ years of superheroes before the JSA vanished. If we assume real time progression for that planet, the JSA reappeared in the early sixties. They progressed until 1985 when COIE hit. That makes over 30 years with super-powered characters, magic, and advanced science. My plan would use a retro-futuristic looking world where it may be 1985, but styles and tech do not match what we remember about 1985. Just don't talk about the date too much and you can lock in the original JSA in their mid to late sixties or so. Plenty old enough to stop active duty, but still young enough to provide programming abilities, detective talent, and knowledge.

I agree that this revamped Earth Two (I use the spelled out two to identify the Earth as being based on the original) should include DC's Golden Age characters. Dupes of Clark, Diana, Bruce, Dick, Ollie, and Roy existed as did any children they had or relatives they found the rocketship of. It doesn't take much to be convinced DC does not want a second Earth even though getting from one Earth to another is easier than getting from Metropolis to Gotham at rush hour.

As for the Huntress, I prefer a Helena who was raised by less intense parents. A Huntress from DC's main Earth would need to be from the future or artificially grown, or some sort of time travel. Which is comic booky, but where I don't like that idea is Helena somehow recognizing THIS Bruce and Selina as her parents.

At this point, all these ideas are is what I'd like to see. Speculating what DC is going to do here seems a game with very little chance of success, even if fun.

[MajorHoy]

. . . That said, I was a little underwhelmed by that version of Earth 2; it was a little too limited for my taste. I would have preferred it to have embraced the All-Star Squadron, a retcon of the original Earth 2 that resulted in it featuring more than just the Justice Society and its children. Basically, Earth 2 became home to practically all of the Golden Age heroes that DC owned: JSA, Seven Soldiers of Victory, Freedom Fighters, various other heroes from Quality and Fawcett Comics (sadly not including the Marvel family, despite Roy Thomas' intentions; though they were brought in via crossovers with Earth-S). And, of course, Infinity Inc. I wouldn't mind the newest version of Earth 2 bring “what if the Crisis on Infinite Earths had never happened, and the pre-Crisis All-Star Squadron hadn't been disrupted by it?”

Actually, prior to Roy Thomas going over to DC, the Seven Soldiers of Victory were already considered to originally be from Earth-2. Len Wein used them as part of his JLA & JSA annual team-up in Justice League of America #100-102 in 1972.
One place where I feel Roy went overboard is by having ALL of the Quality Comics heroes origination on Earth-2 prior to crossing over to Earth-X. I wouldn't have minded one or two having counterparts on both Earths (like Phantom Lady), but the idea that they all had been involved with the All-Star Squadron in the past made Len Wein's introduction of the Quality Comics heroes into the DC Universe in 1973's Justice League of America #107-108 confusing in hindsight since none of the Earth-2 JSA members and none of the Earth-X Freedom Fighters seemed to have ever heard of each other when they met.

[Dataweaver]

The original Earth Two had 10+ years of superheroes before the JSA vanished. If we assume real time progression for that planet, the JSA reappeared in the early sixties. They progressed until 1985 when COIE hit. That makes over 30 years with super-powered characters, magic, and advanced science. My plan would use a retro-futuristic looking world where it may be 1985, but styles and tech do not match what we remember about 1985. Just don't talk about the date too much and you can lock in the original JSA in their mid to late sixties or so. Plenty old enough to stop active duty, but still young enough to provide programming abilities, detective talent, and knowledge.

I agree that this revamped Earth Two (I use the spelled out two to identify the Earth as being based on the original) should include DC's Golden Age characters. Dupes of Clark, Diana, Bruce, Dick, Ollie, and Roy existed as did any children they had or relatives they found the rocketship of. It doesn't take much to be convinced DC does not want a second Earth even though getting from one Earth to another is easier than getting from Metropolis to Gotham at rush hour.

As for the Huntress, I prefer a Helena who was raised by less intense parents. A Huntress from DC's main Earth would need to be from the future or artificially grown, or some sort of time travel. Which is comic booky, but where I don't like that idea is Helena somehow recognizing THIS Bruce and Selina as her parents.

At this point, all these ideas are is what I'd like to see. Speculating what DC is going to do here seems a game with very little chance of success, even if fun.

Nitpick: we already have an Earth-0 Huntress: Helena Bertinelli. She's as distinct from Helena Wayne as the pre-Crisis Katar Hol was from the pre-Crisis Carter Hall.

I wouldn't mind an Earth-0 version of Helena Wayne showing up at some point, though; my personal candidate would be to treat the Batman/Catwoman series as a close parallel timeline that separates off from the mainstream timeline sometime before the marriage of Bruce and Selina (possibly all the way back in issue #1 of that series); and I could, for example, see Johns implementing the story seed he planted in Doomsday Clock (about Superman going on a quest to find Bruce's daughter so that she can save Bruce's son) by having Superman end up in that timeline and bringing that version of Helena Wayne to the present. Of course, she wouldn't be Huntress; and there's already a modern-day version of Batwoman, so she also wouldn't be that.

[CaptCleghorn]

Nitpick: we already have an Earth-0 Huntress: Helena Bertinelli. She's as distinct from Helena Wayne as the pre-Crisis Katar Hol was from the pre-Crisis Carter Hall.

I totally neglected Bertinelli. None of what I said pertains to her. It's possible a future Helena Wayne might use the Huntress identity to hide crime-fighting activities her parents may not approve of, but other than that, I'm finding a main Earth Helena Wayne without some plot hoops to jump through.

[Dataweaver]

I totally neglected Bertinelli. None of what I said pertains to her.

That's why I said it was a nitpick; which I had hoped my comparison between the Golden Age and Silver Age Hawkmen would have illustrated. Helena Bertinelli isn't Helena Wayne; but she is the Huntress native to Earth 0. And you did refer to “a Huntress from DC's main Earth”.

It's possible a future Helena Wayne might use the Huntress identity to hide crime-fighting activities her parents may not approve of, but other than that, I'm not finding a main Earth Helena Wayne without some plot hoops to jump through.

Agreed. And even “a future Helena Wayne” would require some sort of time travel to be relevant in the present. She might be an option in the Batman Beyond timeframe, of course; but again, that doesn't help in the present.

[D.Z]

When I mean Paradox I meant person that can't be erased and shouldn't exist.

Infinite Crisis 5 and more stated Bertinelli comes from pre Crisis Earth eight and she was folden in Earth 0, a retcon yeah but it stands.

[D.Z]

There was nothing wrong with the JSI Earth to me. But i think version is done.

[Dataweaver]

When I mean Paradox I meant person that can't be erased and shouldn't exist.

That's what I mean, too. There's ample evidence that Karen Starr is someone who by all rights ought to have been erased by the first Crisis, but wasn't; and that the retcon that attempted to integrate her into the post-Crisis Earth ultimately failed. She shouldn't exist, but can't be erased.

Further evidence for this exists during the latter part of the New 52, after World's Finest had ended and the New 52 Earth 2 Power Girl and Huntress had gone home, but before Earth 2 was destroyed: there were a few appearances of the pre-Flashpoint Power Girl in total defiance to the then-current continuity. I believe this was in the pages of Harley Quinn, and the result of the writer on that book wanting to use the pre-Flashpoint version of PG despite the fact that she wasn't in continuity; no attempt was made to explain her presence, and the writer went so far as to say that she had no intention of explaining it.

Infinite Crisis 5 and more stated Bertinelli comes from pre Crisis Earth eight and she was folden in Earth 0, a retcon yeah but it stands.

Earth 8 was mentioned once, when Alex Luthor was setting up his summoning station. We never saw it or even saw reference to it before or since. And when Alex did activate his tower, while heroes “native to other Earths” got sent to them, heroes that ought to have been “native to Earth 8” by that theory didn't go anywhere. Either Earth 8 wasn't what Alex said it was, or Earth 8, not Earth 1, served as the template for the combined post-Crisis Earth. Probably not the latter; because of it had been, the heroes native to Earth 1 would have found themselves teleported away to another world.

I think that “pre-Crisis post-Crisis Earth 8” is one of those inconsistencies, an idea that someone tossed in because it sounded nice at the time, but which was ultimately abandoned. It's also a bit of wonkery that is far more involved than I expect the current powerhouses at DC to bring back, whether it be Joshua Williams or Geoff Johns.

There was nothing wrong with the JSI Earth to me. But i think that version is done.

I wouldn't mind too much of it has been brought back; and I don't rule out the possibility: the fact that Infinite Frontier confirmed an Earth 2 Helena Wayne who's consistent with a JSI Earth 2 at least allows for the possibility.

[MajorHoy]

For the record, Justice Society Infinity:

from Justice Society of America Kingdom Come Special: The Kingdom #1