How do you see Bo-Katan?

[godisawesome]

Strictly a fun debate topic here, but: how heroic, anti-heroic, morally ambiguous, or even anti-villainous do you see her? Like in comparison to other characters.

I’ve found it fun to compare the character’s reputation for different people. She got introduced as part of a terrorist group and willfully participated in massacring a village and a false flag operation to install her boss as leader of Mandalore before showing any brighter sides… but then she became a freedom fighter for her people (to some, at least) and has remained, if not allied to the Angels, at least at war with hell. She can be honorable, petty, righteous, and malicious, and tends to be about as bellicose as expected of a Mandalorian warlord.

Like, I consider her about the same as The Armorer in terms of morality - a “champion” rather than a hero, just as much a part of the problem as the solution, and a nationalist to the Armorer’s fundamentalist. I think of her as a like asset to the heroes, and virtuous enough for some types of admiration, but a finite amount - and like the Armorer, she can also end up as a non-malicious antagonist.

I don’t think she’s on the same level as Sabine or Din, but nor is she on the same level as Pre Viszla or the Saxons.

How about you guys?

[j9ac9k]

From what I recall of her, I agree with your assessment. She has a level of self-interest that prevents her from being traditionally heroic, but whom I would expect to side with the heroes... unless it runs counter to that self-interest. She wouldn't like it, but she'd still prioritize her ambitions for herself and Mandalore.

[Frontier]

She means well but she's a bit of a screw-up.

In all seriousness I think she's an interesting contrast to Satine who tried to make a more progressive Mandalore while her own sister was a traditionalist who threw in with terrorists. They've never really explained what happened between the sisters that made them turn out so dramatically different or why Bo was okay with killing her sister up until she lost control of Death Watch. I always found it ironic that both sisters wanted to save Mandalore but could never quite realize either of their visions, but I guess in the end tradition did kind of win out on Mandalore and it's all the culture has left.

I think deep down Bo always thinks she's doing what she does best but she can be pig-headed and foolish enough to not think it through and not quite put in the proper work so she keeps having to pivot and pay for her own mistakes or screw-ups.

[godisawesome]

She means well but she's a bit of a screw-up.

In all seriousness I think she's an interesting contrast to Satine who tried to make a more progressive Mandalore while her own sister was a traditionalist who threw in with terrorists. They've never really explained what happened between the sisters that made them turn out so dramatically different or why Bo was okay with killing her sister up until she lost control of Death Watch. I always found it ironic that both sisters wanted to save Mandalore but could never quite realize either of their visions, but I guess in the end tradition did kind of win out on Mandalore and it's all the culture has left.

I think deep down Bo always thinks she's doing what she does best but she can be pig-headed and foolish enough to not think it through and not quite put in the proper work so she keeps having to pivot and pay for her own mistakes or screw-ups.

One of the implications that I’m curious about is whether the traditional Mandalorian way led directly to the Great Purge. I’ve long suspected that Bo pursued a public opposition and revolt against the Empire without sufficient coordination and cooperation with the Rebels, because she would insist on what she regards as a traditional Mandalorian Rebellion… and those traditions doomed her cause.

Those traditions definitely led straight into the other civil wars and invasions we’ve seen; The Lawless kind of perfectly showcased that with just how quickly and chaotically Sundari got turned into a desolate city of ambushes and explosions. Satine’s pacifism was capable of maintaining a prosperous status quo through peace, but not capable of defending it or advancing it; Bo’s commitment to martial prowess means that she’s constantly advancing her cause, but never seems to be able to defend it in the long term or maintain a status quo.

I’m very curious about whether or not there may be some armor-less Mandalorians still around, like Sabine’s father and the background crowd we still saw in the Siege of Mandalore. Bo Katan and the Armorer both feel like they belong to different types of “warrior elite” who can be a great asset to their people, but as long as they limit their perspective of their people to the “warrior elite,” all Mandalorians will suffer.

I know that armor-less Mandalorians can seem like a superfluous sidetrack when the armor defines them in- and out-of-universe… but the complexities that could emerge with civilian refugees, who are both more likely to be allied with the Republic but are also the opposite of Din, could really flesh out all out main Mandalorians - Bo included.

[Anthony W]

She is a character that can only be redeemed by a heroic death.

That's it.

No, she doesn't get to be ruler of Mandalore.
No, she doesn't get to go off and do her own thing.

But....she is a part of a royal family and that makes her a princess. This is Disney and nothing is more important to Disney than a princess. She will be redeemed and given the throne in a manner that undermines the character and every character around her that will be spun as "empowering"

[Tofali]

With Bo-Katan There was calamity on twitter after the episode of the Return of the Mandalorian when The Armourer described her as a cautionary tale lol! The character has been embraced so much as a heroic figure that nobody was happy about that little comment.

I don’t think she’s on the same level as Sabine or Din, but nor is she on the same level as Pre Viszla or the Saxons.

How about you guys?

Well at least Din has yet to create a weapon that kills and targets Mandalorian.

[Frontier]

With Bo-Katan There was calamity on twitter after the episode of the Return of the Mandalorian when The Armourer described her as a cautionary tale lol! The character has been embraced so much as a heroic figure that nobody was happy about that little comment.

I mean, in some respects she's not wrong...

[ZeroBG82]

Bo-Katan is fun because she's complex.

She's principled. She has a code, and a cause and she puts them before anything else. I 100% believe that she would willingly give her life for her vision of Mandalore if it came down to it.

But her principles are quite limited in scope. If you don't fit her model of what a Mandalorian is supposed to be, you are worth dirt. And god forbid you aren't Mandalorian, then you're only as valuable as your benefit to the movement.

And I don't think she's moral. I think she'd double cross anybody if it benefitted her cause. I think she's self-serving within the context of her code. She's Mando supremecist to her core.

She's really not a good person. Certainly not a hero. But she's not a villain, necessarily either. She's a believer. That makes her capable of both great good and evil depending on what her belief calls for at a given moment.

I wouldn't trust her farther than I can spit unless it benefits her and Mandalore. But if it did I would absolutely have her at my back. A tremendous ally, but not one you count on.

[godisawesome]

With Bo-Katan There was calamity on twitter after the episode of the Return of the Mandalorian when The Armourer described her as a cautionary tale lol! The character has been embraced so much as a heroic figure that nobody was happy about that little comment.

She definitely has a fanbase, and that fanbase has far more reason to like her than, say, Ben Solo’s fanbase… but she’s also got plenty of people who have a colder, more wary view of her.

There’s a reason more people have predicted she duels Din as an opponent at some point then figure she ends up as Mandalore now.

Really, she’s perfectly placed as an anti-heroic supporting character or a potential tragic hero, and that’s where she should hang out; she’s darker than the other heroes and not comparable to them, but still has admirable virtues and heroic aspirations at times.

Star Wars can have Saw Guerrera and Bo Katan as it’s “too flawed for the starting line-up but still on the team” heroes… just like the Armorer.

Well at least Din has yet to create a weapon that kills and targets Mandalorian.

…Got to say as a comparison, Sabine also never consciously considered handing over a baby to the Empire, especially not the Empire after the Mandalorian Purge.

Both Din and Sabine are well above Bo “I supported massacring a village shot shits and giggles in between terrorism against pacifists” Katan and The Mysterious “I also probably fought for Death Watch, but backed Maul” Armorer, who are still anti-heroic themselves. Both Din and Sabine have mistakes that the audience can more easily forgive for certain reasons - Din acted to undo his more conscious and blatant mistake while there was still time, while Sabine made a guileless mistake as a student out of ignorance about what the Empire would do and dedicated her life to stopping it when she realized it.

Now, I *do* think that The Armorer should be much more offended and angered by Sabine’s mistake - Bo herself was infuriated by the nature of The Duchess, and Bo’s only a nationalist rather than a Fundamentalist - but the audience is going to keep their heads on straight that Sabine’s less culpable for her mistake than the other flawed Mandos…

…At least as long as the writing doesn’t start playing favorites in sloppy, Rian Johnson-esque way…

[Frontier]

I'll always remember her slapping Ahsoka's butt:

[Tofali]

It has been awhile but isn't that the place where her and Death Watch massacred and enslaved a village?

[j9ac9k]

I'll always remember her slapping Ahsoka's butt:

I'd love for Ahsoka to do that to Bo on her show.

[godisawesome]

It has been awhile but isn't that the place where her and Death Watch massacred and enslaved a village?

Yup.

Which is why I kind of hope she and Din have a duel, even though I also hope she survives and becomes an ally again afterwards.

I get why she has some fans who really want her to just be a hero because she occupied that role for most of her other appearances, but I feel there should be some symbolic reminder of her… less-than-heroic introduction.

[Frontier]

Yup.

Which is why I kind of hope she and Din have a duel, even though I also hope she survives and becomes an ally again afterwards.

I get why she has some fans who really want her to just be a hero because she occupied that role for most of her other appearances, but I feel there should be some symbolic reminder of her… less-than-heroic introduction.

I feel like fans who want her to be a hero mistake her intentions. She's not really ever trying to be a hero, she's just doing what she feels is best for Mandalore, whether honorably or dishonorably.

[godisawesome]

I feel like fans who want her to be a hero mistake her intentions. She's not really ever trying to be a hero, she's just doing what she feels is best for Mandalore, whether honorably or dishonorably.

I agree that’s how she should be seen, and how I think Filoni and Favreau are portraying her. I think they made sure to include her being a bit too bellicose and belligerent in The Mandalorian, and made sure to plant the seed for conflict with Din there as well, though coached in the morally ambiguous manner of Gideon manipulating the Darksaber situation just so.

But I’m not shocked at the fans who just want her to be straight up hero; her last appearances in TCW and her one appearance in Rebels were pretty strait forward in their portrayal of her as a hero, and I’m half convinced her getting the darksaber in Rebels and being lauded a bit more than usual we’re in case Filoni ever found the best time to do a Mandalorian spin-off would best be served by her as the protagonist. I could easily see him pulling something like he did with Kallus if he felt it was the best way forward.

This *is* a fanbase that had elements of both the audience *and the creators* who desperately wanted Ben Solo to just be a perfect hero and hijack the ST’s story simply because Adam Driver has an epic lip-wobble game and the character had the right heritage, and in spite of the story very much not being sympathetic.

Some of them would gladly applaud Bo just being the hero and even getting the Darksaber back, and while it wouldn’t be as egregious as the Ben a solo situation, I really hope we get the properly nuanced anti-heroic story with her in support of Din or even Sabine.