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  1. #271
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    If Faora is as strong as Superman, that pretty much blows your theory out of the water. All that means in re to WW is that they don't think much of the WW mythos. Which would admittedly suck, but has nothing to do with sexism if another woman is shown to be as strong as he is.
    faora isn't as strong as SM anyway. So.

  2. #272
    Just crumbs...... BiteTheBullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    If Faora is as strong as Superman, that pretty much blows your theory out of the water. All that means in re to WW is that they don't think much of the WW mythos. Which would admittedly suck, but has nothing to do with sexism if another woman is shown to be as strong as he is.
    I don't think they have ever had a female kryptonian stronger than Superman or a male kryptonian for that matter. It might be sexist to say that, but unless examples are cited, I think that is the case.

    Note, when Supergirl came about during the Superman/Batman comic and they implied she might be stronger, that eventually resolved itself as Superman being the strongest.

  3. #273
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    faora isn't as strong as SM anyway. So.
    In the DCEU at least Faora is as strong as him.

  4. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    In the DCEU at least Faora is as strong as him.
    Accurate.

    10 characters.
    Keep in mind that you have about as much chance of changing my mind as I do of changing yours.

  5. #275
    Extraordinary Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zagre View Post
    As weird as this sounds, I was replaying the first Injustice game the other day and the writing for WW there is slightly more respectful there, all things considered. In the game she's basically a generic baddie, no more evil than the rest of her comrades, Superman is portrayed as the clear Big Bad there and in fact, the implication is that he influenced Wonder Woman change of behaviour, not the other way around (there's a part where Diana tells her good universe counterpart "Superman showed me the truth"). Even her relationship with Supes is portrayed as soemthing that happened relatively recently (i.e. 5 years after Lois' death, not 5 minutes) and something she has doubts about (out of respect for both Superman and Lois).

    Don't get me wrong, she's still an evil Warrior Woman version, but the hyper-bloodthirsty Lady Macbeth-esque closeted fascist that couldn't wait to conquer the world and get into Superman's pants while his wife memory was still fresh? That's all Taylor's invention.
    Ah, guess I was thinking about the second game then, pretty sure it's in that one there's a claim she may have done so, thanks for the correction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I don't know how much fan response factored into it, but Toriyama has stated he brought Goku back simply because he preferred writing him over Gohan.
    Fan response had Gohan as one of the most popular characters at the time, and Toriyama has stated in interviews he may do the opposite of what fans want just because (Like fans asking him to not kill Vegeta, then he goes ahead and kills Vegeta).

    There was editorial interference in DB, but Goku becoming the protagonist once again was Toriyama's doing, as he has said that editorial around Boo saga allowed him to do whatever as the third editor was less strict than the other two, which, does explain why Boo saga has more random bullshit happening.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    -The idea of Jon being stronger than Kal because he has both human and kryptonian genetics will never add up for me. In previous stories, like in Bryne's 'Superman/Batman: Generations' Clark's off springs with humans were weaker because they only had half of his kryptonian genetics. I wonder if there is a RL basis in biology for that.

    -Now, if a Kryptonian bred with an Amazon.... >_> .... <_< .... >_> or with a Daxamite or whatever Maxima's race is supposed then I can imagine that child being ridiculously powerful.
    I remember a post-Crisis story, maybe New Krypton, said that Daxamites are Kryptonians mixed with Daxamites, so them being this powerful is just Kryptonian genes, I don't think a Kryptonian + Daxamite kid would make much difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by BiteTheBullet View Post
    I don't think they have ever had a female kryptonian stronger than Superman or a male kryptonian for that matter. It might be sexist to say that, but unless examples are cited, I think that is the case.

    Note, when Supergirl came about during the Superman/Batman comic and they implied she might be stronger, that eventually resolved itself as Superman being the strongest.
    The Supergirl case quite clearly had the intention of her being stronger and faster, but eventually DC decided to undo that nonsense.

    Reminds me that, back in bronze age, Supes lost a lot of his powers and they became about a third of what they used to be, supposedly, a reader asked if that meant Supergirl was now stronger than him, and the reply was "No, because men are stronger than women".

    I'm not exactly sure if the question and reply actually happened, but back in Marvel, after Jean became Phoenix, writers wanted her to beat up Thor to show how strong she is, but editors refused to allow that 'cause a woman can't beat a man, yeah... Like I don't think defeating someone on Thor's level should happen just like that (Specially back then when his power was actually respected), but the point is how blatantly sexist the reasoning was, then again, it was 70's, so not surprising...
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    We all know that BND was a collective mid-life crisis from Marvel back then

  6. #276
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    In the DCEU at least Faora is as strong as him.
    She isn't. Look at juistice league.

  7. #277
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    Accurate.

    10 characters.
    Not at all. DCEU SM has by far better feats, and his JL performance totally outclasses DCEU faora by far.

  8. #278
    Just crumbs...... BiteTheBullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    In the DCEU at least Faora is as strong as him.
    That was a case of her being more skilled than Clark, not necessarily stronger.

    I would say that since Clark took Faora and the 9 foot giant on at the same time, Clark was stronger (than Faora at least).

  9. #279
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiteTheBullet View Post
    That was a case of her being more skilled than Clark, not necessarily stronger.

    I would say that since Clark took Faora and the 9 foot giant on at the same time, Clark was stronger (than Faora at least).
    Look at her easily blocking Kal El's punches, grabbing him by the throat and throwing him to the ground. She is just as strong as him, and her technique is what gives her the advantage instead of it being a standstill.

    Kal barely survives when he is 2 v 1 them. The only moment where he no lonelger gets to turn around his losing streak is when he uses his heat vision (which they can't do yet).

    And according to your logic Mystical, the reason why Cheetah is so strong is becauss she can take hits from Wonder Woman and throw her around. So if Faora can do the same vs Superman, we must assume Faora could also do what he does in Justice League, including overpowering all of them and easily dominating Steppenwolf

  10. #280

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Being bested isn't the same thing as being conquered. That's why I was very confused by that comparison of saying writers want Superman to conquer Diana the same way Hercules conquered Hippolyta. That's a much more assaulting take than people usually give here.

    Do people actually use Superman as the measure of power equality between the genders?

    So if Superman was shown as consistently being matched in strength by Faora, would it be okay for Wonder Woman to be weaker than the two of them?

    I'm not saying Diana has to be weaker than Superman, but DC has always said that Superman is the strongest Superhero on earth so there are no other male heroes that compare to him. Maybe Shazam at times, but he never has the same feats as Superman.
    Please read WW's appearances in Frank Miller's Dark Knight Strikes Again, All Star Batman and in Matt Wagner's Trinity then get back to us. Thank you.

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  11. #281
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Venus View Post
    Please read WW's appearances in Frank Miller's Dark Knight Strikes Again, All Star Batman and in Matt Wagner's Trinity then get back to us. Thank you.
    I didn't know the question being asked was "are there sexist writers that have mistreated Wonder Woman".

    I thought what we were discussing yesterday was " is Superman stronger than Wonder Woman just because of sexism".

    Because I have no doubt that many sexist writers have written Wonder Woman. There are lots of things I like about the Brian Azzarello run, but the "romance" with Orion was horrible.

    And I have no doubt that over the years many writers couldn't fathom the idea of any woman overpowering a powerful hero, specially Superman. In fact, probably even today
    Last edited by Alpha; 05-20-2022 at 12:16 AM.

  12. #282
    Astonishing Member El_Gato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Being bested isn't the same thing as being conquered. That's why I was very confused by that comparison of saying writers want Superman to conquer Diana the same way Hercules conquered Hippolyta. That's a much more assaulting take than people usually give here.

    Do people actually use Superman as the measure of power equality between the genders?

    So if Superman was shown as consistently being matched in strength by Faora, would it be okay for Wonder Woman to be weaker than the two of them?

    I'm not saying Diana has to be weaker than Superman, but DC has always said that Superman is the strongest Superhero on earth so there are no other male heroes that compare to him. Maybe Shazam at times, but he never has the same feats as Superman.
    I never got the Superman/Wonder Woman comparisons either. I mean itís not like Diana is even the strongest or most powerful female character in DC (Powergirl and Supergirl are stronger/ just as strong and Raven/Zatanna/Circe are definitely more powerful)
    Done with DC. Can't handle the constant whiplash! Time to go on a hiatus!

  13. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by El_Gato View Post
    I never got the Superman/Wonder Woman comparisons either. I mean itís not like Diana is even the strongest or most powerful female character in DC (Powergirl and Supergirl are stronger/ just as strong and Raven/Zatanna/Circe are definitely more powerful)
    Diana's beaten Power Girl and Supergirl, neither of whom have ever been stated to be stronger than her outside of maybe one time in New 52 for Kara. Neither Circe, Zatanna or Raven has ever been stated or shown to be more powerful than Diana.

  14. #284
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Look at her easily blocking Kal El's punches, grabbing him by the throat and throwing him to the ground. She is just as strong as him, and her technique is what gives her the advantage instead of it being a standstill.

    Kal barely survives when he is 2 v 1 them. The only moment where he no lonelger gets to turn around his losing streak is when he uses his heat vision (which they can't do yet).

    And according to your logic Mystical, the reason why Cheetah is so strong is becauss she can take hits from Wonder Woman and throw her around. So if Faora can do the same vs Superman, we must assume Faora could also do what he does in Justice League, including overpowering all of them and easily dominating Steppenwolf
    Superman beat Faora in MOS so she clearly isn't stronger. He put down Zod too. And none of those characters shoed the level of speed and strength SM showed in JL. So no. Faora wasn't his equal. In the comics. WW was already capable of fighting Faora one on one. But the trend of usually beingg helpless against Superman continued. I wonder why........

  15. #285

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    I didn't know the question being asked was "are there sexist writers that have mistreated Wonder Woman".

    I thought what we were discussing yesterday was " is Superman stronger than Wonder Woman just because of sexism".

    Because I have no doubt that many sexist writers have written Wonder Woman. There are lots of things I like about the Brian Azzarello run, but the "romance" with Orion was horrible.

    And I have no doubt that over the years many writers couldn't fathom the idea of any woman overpowering a powerful hero, specially Superman. In fact, probably even today
    You were asking about the relationship between Heracles and Superman on the previous page and how the story of Heracles and Hippolyta impacts modern depiction of Superman and Wonder Woman. Agent Z already broke it down on the previous, I'm only adding to it by citing some examples.

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