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  1. #1
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Default possible signs of sexism, including weisman.

    Instead of making one thread to discuss every one separately. Here we can discuss all of them in one place.

    First greg weisman.

    So i just saw his responds towards WW.

    He thinks:

    WW is not invulnerable. And apparently WW can't compete with Superman. Since according to him a no name character like blockbuster could never win against Superman. But he can beat WW. and Donna Troy is not as strong as superboy. And of course. The way that he made Cheetah catwoman's punching bag in the catwoman movie. Where a normal human was seen physically fighting Cheetah and dodging her attacks.

    matt wagner and his trinity book.

    I don't like how she spent the time talking about what a man superman is. Or how she acts like an angry cop talking about the patriarchy. OR how batman apparently couldn't resist to kiss her.

    Not to mention how she was treated as a weaklink.
    Superman protected her from granades explosions. He is always protecting her like she can't do anything on her own. Saved her from an explosion that SM took just fine. Beaten down like a helpless ant by bizarro. Then the lasso getting broken by him. Then almost fainting from fumes. Getting wrecked by sybil. Sure she was weakened from previous fight but still. That is a hughe sigh. Then struggling with bizarro again. While batman in a suit gives him more of a fight. And ghul giving WW a fight. SM and BM literally do all the heavy work while Diana goes from one beating to another. And outside of that, she is only there to praise SM. Be saved by him and BM. And for batman to fall ''prey'' of her grace, when he saw her on the island and couldn't resist to kiss her. Sigh

    Jeph's treatment of WW in Superman and Batman.

    The most infamous part is obviously the one where Superman easily overpowered her and killed her with her own lasso. I have seen that image used countless times by sexists on the internet talking about how Diana is nothing next to superman in terms of power.

    Mark Waid and alex ross kingdom come. A Wonder Woman that lost herself. Angry, bloodthirsty. And in the end. A glorified womb for superman's children. That have all the traits of him and nothing from her mother.

    geoff johns. The way he reduced WW to a glorified super human warrior that brags about killing, while superman has to teach her about compassion. And the way he treated WW84 no need to say more.

    priest. His comment about WW. Saying i don't relate to white women in tiaras talking big talk. And how he had the allegedly powerghouse and greatest warrior in DC, go down to a bullet that she also couldn't react to with those ''legendary'' reflexes of her.

    tim from DCAU. We already know how they treated Diana's character and her lore. A real mess.

    Alan Moore y Dave Gibbons in for the man who has everything. Need i say more?

    tom taylor. Both injustice and Dceased. And in those. WW is either a trophy for batman or superman. A murder or a weak link. And sometimes all of that at the same time. For example in Dceased. She is killed in one hit by superman. And Mary Marvel only needed a few months of training and boom, goodbye WW. And once again, tom taylor talked about how mary has powers from multiple Gods. While forgeting Diana has them too. In taylor's hands. WW is always portrayed as a weaklink next to men. Or next to women based on already existing male characters such as mary marvel, batwoman etc. So is there bias or sexism here? Or is he just that clueless about where WW is supposed to rank in power. And also in terms of her personality and goals? Because not only she is weak inder tom taylor, she is always talking about how great batman and superman are. And usually acting like a bloodthirsty barbarian.

    Snyder WW from DCEU. A helpless fodder next to superman and steppenwolf. A very violent type of warrior woman. The typical cliche approacch to show a ''strong'' woman by many writers.

    And i can't find a quote that i saw long ago. I don't know if it was from byrne. Saying basically how he felt that WW couldn't compete with the big boys like black adam and co. If somebody knows the comment i'm talking about, please post it.

    So why do we still deal with these bias writers that seem to be blinded by sexism. In their minds. WW and her wonder girls are always nothing next to the big male powerhouses. Not just in terms of power. But in principles, morality etc. Things don't seem to be improving at all. Do you think all that i mentioned is just coincidence, or there is direct or subconsciously sexism involved?

  2. #2
    Mighty Member Psy-lock's Avatar
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    Tom King's run on Batman used Diana as a sexy seductress.

    Will Pfeiffer who portrayed the Amazons as feminazis and had Batman beat Circe in Amazons Attack. Not to mention how he treated Cheetah. Hell, Cheetah deserves her own trash list after how many times she was mistreated.

    James Robinson having WW play a second fiddle to a man in her own book.

    And I'm sure I can name at least a dozen more. In fact, it's easier to name writers that don't treat her like garbage. We know for a fact it's not a coincidence, some writers (like George Perez) openly criticized DC for their mistreatment of WW.

  3. #3
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psy-lock View Post
    Tom King's run on Batman used Diana as a sexy seductress.

    Will Pfeiffer who portrayed the Amazons as feminazis and had Batman beat Circe in Amazons Attack. Not to mention how he treated Cheetah. Hell, Cheetah deserves her own trash list after how many times she was mistreated.

    James Robinson having WW play a second fiddle to a man in her own book.

    And I'm sure I can name at least a dozen more. In fact, it's easier to name writers that don't treat her like garbage. We know for a fact it's not a coincidence, some writers (like George Perez) openly criticized DC for their mistreatment of WW.
    I don't remember will pfeiffer. What did he do to Cheetah?

    Robinson literally made jason the center of WW's run. And don't forget he usggested he was more powerful than her. Supergirl or powergirl are never allowed to be as strong as their existing male counterpart. But WW gets a male version that nobody asked for after 75 years, and they made him allegedly stronger than the original. Sigh.

  4. #4
    Mighty Member Psy-lock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    I don't remember will pfeiffer. What did he do to Cheetah?

    Robinson literally made jason the center of WW's run. And don't forget he usggested he was more powerful than her. Supergirl or powergirl are never allowed to be as strong as their existing male counterpart. But WW gets a male version that nobody asked for after 75 years, and they made him allegedly stronger than the original. Sigh.



    And this is his Circe for good measure

  5. #5
    Beyond Good. Beyond Evil. Gaius's Avatar
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    Marston - Used WW to fulfill his horny fantasies, had WW lose to street-leveler Cheetah. Very disrespectful to Marston's creation.

    Perez - Had WW get taken out by a poison dart. Had Barbara Minerva get scared off by a shotgun, Perez clearly knows nothing about Cheetah

    Rucka - Batman didn't turn into jelly when WW punched him in Hiketeia, clearly trying to depower her.

  6. #6
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Marston - Used WW to fulfill his horny fantasies, had WW lose to street-leveler Cheetah. Very disrespectful to Marston's creation.

    Perez - Had WW get taken out by a poison dart. Had Barbara Minerva get scared off by a shotgun, Perez clearly knows nothing about Cheetah

    Rucka - Batman didn't turn into jelly when WW punched him in Hiketeia, clearly trying to depower her.
    Marston had a lot of vision for WW. Including a sexually liberated woman. Somebody that didn't see genders, and didn't see social classes since she grew up in an island where they were all equals. His WW is very radical more not sexist. And chains were a very popular image of feminist movement back then. And Marston was part of it. The message behind WW and chains is that it was WW herself that had to free herself from the chains and bonds. He truly created a very radical, open minded, free spirit and controversial character that truly put into question a lot of things that were considered norm in society.

    Priscilla Rich was actually a formidable foe when wtiten properly. She was smart to avoid physical battles with Diana. And smart enough to find ways to challenge her like stealing mystical items to give herself super powers. Or in batman brave and the bold. Where she beat Superman, preparing herself to battle him with a magic stone and claws. Or how she had a whole thing planed on Super Friends when she beat WW in the contest of the amazons. All of this goes to prove any character can beat any character under certain circumstances. Sadly that is not the case with writers that just nerf characters on purpose to keep the plot going.

    Early Post Crisis Diana was considerably weaker just like early post crisis Superman. Since they were just starting out. They grew in power as years went on. So there is nothging wrong with Perez WW. He gave her plenty of badass moments for a young inexperience hero. And that goes for Cheetah too. Who was around the same level as early Post Crisis Diana, who was very strong for somebody that was just starting to get to know her powers better, and she still had the susceptible point to bullets from pre crisis, until she became bulletproof in later Post Crisis. Cheetah would also get stronger with time just like Diana.

    Unless Ruka stated that WW was trying to kill Batman. It's safe to assume she was holding back. Since WW has been known to hold back against weaker opponents and when she doesn't want to hurt somebody.
    Last edited by mystical41; 02-14-2022 at 08:56 AM.

  7. #7
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Hum, Marston definitely believed there was a difference between the genders. He wasn't looking for gender equality, he asserted that women should be leading the world.

    (I'm not knocking down Marston but Mystical's claims are false)

  8. #8
    Beyond Good. Beyond Evil. Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    Marston had a lot of vision for WW. Including a sexually liberated woman. Somebody that didn't see genders, and didn't see social classes since she grew up in an island where they were all equals. His WW is very radical more not sexist. And chains were a very popular image of feminist movement back then. And Marston was part of it. The message behind WW and chains is that it was WW herself that had to free herself from the chains and bonds. He truly created a very radical, open minded, free spirit and controversial character that truly put into question a lot of things that were considered norm in society.

    Priscilla Rich was actually a formidable foe when wtiten properly. She was smart to avoid physical battles with Diana. And smart enough to find ways to challenge her like stealing mystical items to give herself super powers. Or in batman brave and the bold. Where she beat Superman, preparing herself to battle him with a magic stone and claws. Or how she had a whole thing planed on Super Friends when she beat WW in the contest of the amazons. All of this goes to prove any character can beat any character under certain circumstances. Sadly that is not the case with writers that just nerf characters on purpose to keep the plot going.

    Early Post Crisis Diana was considerably weaker just like early post crisis Superman. Since they were just starting out. They grew in power as years went on. So there is nothging wrong with Perez WW. He gave her plenty of badass moments for a young inexperience hero. And that goes for Cheetah too. Who was around the same level as early Post Crisis Diana, who was very strong for somebody that was just starting to get to know her powers better, and she still had the susceptible point to bullets from pre crisis, until she became bulletproof in later Post Crisis. Cheetah would also get stronger with time just like Diana.

    Unless Ruka stated that WW was trying to kill Batman. It's safe to assume she was holding back. Since WW has been known to hold back against weaker opponents and when she doesn't want to hurt somebody.
    That post was a joke.

  9. #9
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Hum, Marston definitely believed there was a difference between the genders. He wasn't looking for gender equality, he asserted that women should be leading the world.

    (I'm not knocking down Marston but Mystical's claims are false)
    Even if he belived that women should lead the world, so what? That in itself was a concept worth exploring. A breeze of fresh air. After such a long time with men being the ones calling all the shots. His vision was giving a what if kind of approach. It was puting a lot of things into question, and i see nothing wrong with that. In many aspects, Wonder Woman was ahead of her time.

  10. #10
    Fantastic Member donnafan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    Even if he belived that women should lead the world, so what? That in itself was a concept worth exploring. A breeze of fresh air. After such a long time with men being the ones calling all the shots. His vision was giving a what if kind of approach. It was puting a lot of things into question, and i see nothing wrong with that. In many aspects, Wonder Woman was ahead of her time.
    100%. Marston created Wonder Woman to be the female contemporary of Superman. Over the years, Superman's powers grew to god-like proportion while Wonder Woman's lagged somewhat behind. For instance, Wonder Woman was de-powered in the 70's which wasn't reversed until feminist activist Gloria Steinem lobbied DC Comics over their treatment of the character. After which, DC reversed this and gave Diana her powers back but, still nowhere near Superman's level. As recently as the Justice League movie, Superman was able to defeat Diana pretty easily in combat.

    In the comics, post nu52 Donna Troy's power was listed on DC's site as on par of the Amazon's and her flight was regularly missing until she received Joker venom and remembered her previous history and flew away to join the rest of Secret Six. Much reduced from pre-Crisis and even pre-Nu52 levels where Donna was historically shown to be able to stop Superman in his tracks, even if it wasn't for long. That power level was more on par with Superboy.

    The fact that it took 30 years for Wonder Woman and her "family" to appear together in a cross-over event or, even together regularly in her own book is sexist. The Bat and Superman families regularly appear together. In an interview with Perez, he stated that Wonder Woman was a book where writers and artists regularly went to "die" as it was seen as a dead-end position. It wasn't until DC decided to revamp the title during Crisis and Perez pitched his idea that the book and character was given some respect. DC didn't believe that it could be a number 1 selling book until Perez quickly proved them wrong.

    Overall, yes, female characters in comics have historically not been treated the same as male characters. This attitude is changing with more diverse comics creators and on the heels of the success of other media, notably the success of the Wonder Woman movie franchise. I'm hoping that we continue to see change because, the character is beloved by male and female fans alike and deserves better treatment.

  11. #11
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    DeConnick made a point in a recent interview that presenting the Amazons as flawless is dehumanizing. She mentioned before that she rejected Marston, or at least some of his ideas, and we can probably link those two statements together. Marston saying men are inferior to women isn't true feminism and can be harmful to both genders. Plus yeah, the fetish fuel.

    And I love Marston's run and his overall vision for Wonder Woman , but he was a land of contrasts. Ahead of his time in some ways, very much of his time in others. Even some creators who get certain things wrong about W W and have their own pitfalls when it comes to sexism manage to avoid some of his more problematic tropes

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    DeConnick made a point in a recent interview that presenting the Amazons as flawless is dehumanizing. She mentioned before that she rejected Marston, or at least some of his ideas, and we can probably link those two statements together. Marston saying men are inferior to women isn't true feminism and can be harmful to both genders. Plus yeah, the fetish fuel.

    And I love Marston's run and his overall vision for Wonder Woman , but he was a land of contrasts. Ahead of his time in some ways, very much of his time in others. Even some creators who get certain things wrong about W W and have their own pitfalls when it comes to sexism manage to avoid some of his more problematic tropes
    Took the word right out of my mouth.

  13. #13
    Mighty Member mystical41's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    DeConnick made a point in a recent interview that presenting the Amazons as flawless is dehumanizing. She mentioned before that she rejected Marston, or at least some of his ideas, and we can probably link those two statements together. Marston saying men are inferior to women isn't true feminism and can be harmful to both genders. Plus yeah, the fetish fuel.

    And I love Marston's run and his overall vision for Wonder Woman , but he was a land of contrasts. Ahead of his time in some ways, very much of his time in others. Even some creators who get certain things wrong about W W and have their own pitfalls when it comes to sexism manage to avoid some of his more problematic tropes
    Marston still created interesting concepts and was definitely behind the idea of creating a powerful woman. That would speak her mind and fight for what she believes in. His vision was giving a what if kind of approach. He put into question plenty of things about society and how it viwed women. Was his run perfect? No, but he had interesting ideas, and and open mind enough to try to explore things from a woman's point of view. To give a woman the power that was usually only given to men. And i highly doubt he was sexist. When i look at how the writers i just listed above treated her(among many others that i'm missing). Marston wasn't perfect with the way he executed some of his ideas. But he was far from treating Diana like arm candy, a weaklink that gets put in her place by male powerhouses. Or having men lecturing her about compassion and trash like that.

  14. #14
    Fantastic Member donnafan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    Marston still created interesting concepts and was definitely behind the idea of creating a powerful woman. That would speak her mind and fight for what she believes in. His vision was giving a what if kind of approach. He put into question plenty of things about society and how it viwed women. Was his run perfect? No, but he had interesting ideas, and and open mind enough to try to explore things from a woman's point of view. To give a woman the power that was usually only given to men. And i highly doubt he was sexist. When i look at how the writers i just listed above treated her(among many others that i'm missing). Marston wasn't perfect with the way he executed some of his ideas. But he was far from treating Diana like arm candy, a weaklink that gets put in her place by male powerhouses. Or having men lecturing her about compassion and trash like that.
    Not to mention that we are looking at this from a perspective of today's society and cultural norms as opposed to the 1940's. If invented today, Marston's depiction of WW would never get printed but, the character and underlying concept is as relevant today as it was then otherwise, Wonder Woman wouldn't have lasted 80 years or, become a feminist icon.

  15. #15
    Beyond Good. Beyond Evil. Gaius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    DeConnick made a point in a recent interview that presenting the Amazons as flawless is dehumanizing. She mentioned before that she rejected Marston, or at least some of his ideas, and we can probably link those two statements together. Marston saying men are inferior to women isn't true feminism and can be harmful to both genders. Plus yeah, the fetish fuel.

    And I love Marston's run and his overall vision for Wonder Woman , but he was a land of contrasts. Ahead of his time in some ways, very much of his time in others. Even some creators who get certain things wrong about W W and have their own pitfalls when it comes to sexism manage to avoid some of his more problematic tropes
    Just to note my bit about Marston was a joke but yes otherwise agreed.

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