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  1. #151
    Astonishing Member WonderLight789's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DABellWrites View Post
    All of the guys you listed were most likely pre-crisis readers. Canonically, Diana wasn't nowhere near Superman's power levels. So, they didn't know Diana should actually be written on par with the Man of Steel. Honestly, I can't go calling a preference sexist. Geoff Johns has always has his own ideas for WW, but WW1984 is all Patty Jenkins. Snyder is a mix bag. He clearly lost the pacing at the end of the fight to have time for Clark so a butterfly could fly on his hand (the theatrical cut proved half of the ZSJL wasn't need). When the line goes "You could've saved your sisters". Steppenwolf actually acknowledges her strength. As I stated mixed bag.
    Marston WW did feats like going faster than light. Moving moons, tossing planets etc. And his exact words were to make her an equal to SM. Sexism hurt WW badly. And she spent the 50s trapped in stories were she cared more about getting married than saving the world. The 60s she spent it powerless playing to be a sexy spy etc.

    The truth is in the pudding. snyder WW was treated as an ant next to SM. And geof johns is not without blame for WW84. It wasn't just jenkins. He wrote that too.

  2. #152
    Astonishing Member WonderLight789's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiteTheBullet View Post
    Problem was the consistency of these power feats. I think they should go back to something like Byrne's Man of Steel days in terms of power. Still very powerful, but not uber powerful. It seems the power creep, especially with the men, gets more and more as time goes on since the writers can't seem to play within boundaries. How many times to we have to hear that this character has always held back, etc... It gets old very quickly.
    Comics aren't consistent even today. And if male characcters can be uber powerful. So should the female powerhouses.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    Marston WW did feats like going faster than light. Moving moons, tossing planets etc.
    In what stories did those things happen? I don't remember reading anything by Marston with her doing those things

  4. #154
    Jax City/Kill The FIremen
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Even pre-crisis, Diana was doing stuff like moving an entire island out of a tidal wave's path and throwing a large chunk of Kryptonite half-way across the planet.
    True, but Superman was on a whole different level. It was shown many times Diana was nowhere his strength. Even the Earth-3 Superwoman was stronger than Wonder Woman.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by mystical41 View Post
    Marston WW did feats like going faster than light. Moving moons, tossing planets etc. And his exact words were to make her an equal to SM. Sexism hurt WW badly. And she spent the 50s trapped in stories were she cared more about getting married than saving the world. The 60s she spent it powerless playing to be a sexy spy etc.

    The truth is in the pudding. snyder WW was treated as an ant next to SM. And geof johns is not without blame for WW84. It wasn't just jenkins. He wrote that too.
    Robert Kanigher is very much inconsistent with Diana. In one issue, she could be shown to move so fast her body could become a blur and move through small rings. Beat Neptune using a giant swordfish, and much more. In the other, she could hardly beat the Wonder Woman from Dimension X or a robot Wonder Woman, whatever else he needed Diana to be weaker against. As I stated, Snyder is a mixed bag. Sure his name is attached to the film, but that doesn't meant anything in terms of what he contributed to the movie.

  6. #156
    Astonishing Member WonderLight789's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DABellWrites View Post
    Robert Kanigher is very much inconsistent with Diana. In one issue, she could be shown to move so fast her body could become a blur and move through small rings. Beat Neptune using a giant swordfish, and much more. In the other, she could hardly beat the Wonder Woman from Dimension X or a robot Wonder Woman, whatever else he needed Diana to be weaker against. As I stated, Snyder is a mixed bag. Sure his name is attached to the film, but that doesn't meant anything in terms of what he contributed to the movie.

    That's not a problem with WW only. Comics have always been inconsistent. Superman included. Which is why i don't support those who defend the idea that the plot is so important. That it doesn't if a character fluctuates in power drastically in the same story, because the most important thing is to tell a story. Consistency is important in all aspects and that includes power level. Comic writing has been lazy in countless examples and there is no way to justify it.


    snyder is not a mix. His WW is a glorified super human red sonja. He did nothing great with the charactr. Johns helped to write WW84. And some of the elements of that movie scream johns. lord being the main villain is one of them. Although Jenkins is not much better. She has done nothing to prove she can portray a really powerful Diana.

  7. #157
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    I would still like to find out in what Marston stories Diana was able to move planets, moons, and move at the speed of light.

  8. #158
    Astonishing Member WonderLight789's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    I would still like to find out in what Marston stories Diana was able to move planets, moons, and move at the speed of light.
    WW speed 7.jpg

    WW planet..jpg

    WW mars 2.jpg

  9. #159

  10. #160
    Mighty Member HestiasHearth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    In what stories did those things happen? I don't remember reading anything by Marston with her doing those things
    I have read them. Google them; it is all documented, and plenty of sites have those stories posted. They are cool tales.

    ETA: Oh, I see Mystical has already posted pics of some of the tales.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by DABellWrites View Post
    True, but Superman was on a whole different level. It was shown many times Diana was nowhere his strength. Even the Earth-3 Superwoman was stronger than Wonder Woman.
    The gap wasn't that wide. They fought at least once and Diana wasn't immediately steamrolled by him. Even if ahe wasn't exactly as strong as Superman, she was very close.

    And Earth 3 Superwoman being stronger is easily disproven by how often Diana has beaten her, not to mention her being beaten by Black Canary.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 03-06-2022 at 10:49 AM.

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by DABellWrites View Post
    True, but Superman was on a whole different level. It was shown many times Diana was nowhere his strength.
    That was later on, after very obvious sexism, odd pseudo feminism, and more had screwed Wonder Woman heavily over already, and barely ever like that in the direct comparisons themselves, because even the DC back then seemed to understand at times what a bad look that truly is. From Marston's days up into a part of Kanhiger's days it was almost impossible to give a definitive answer about who was truly stronger because they could do both anything that was necessary for the story without even a broad general strength level, and Superman was by no means on a whole different level which would have also literally meant that Marston would have been literally too incompetent for his own idea.

    Even the Earth-3 Superwoman was stronger than Wonder Woman.
    From where are you getting that, and about which specific era before the crisis are you even talking?
    Last edited by Rightoya; 03-03-2022 at 04:19 AM.

  13. #163
    Post Editing OCD Confuzzled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rightoya View Post
    That is probably true, but just sad, considering that she is typcally not even in the top 5 of Batman villains.
    Actually, considering that Ivy has been part of team titles like Gotham City Sirens, Birds of Prey, Suicide Squad, shared titles with Harley and even had her own mini-series, young adult graphic novel and multiple one-offs, she and the other two Sirens are among the top 5 most used Batman villains, along with Joker and Penguin, according to this website which does a pretty good job of counting as many appearances as possible made by each character in comics: https://comiccruncher.com/

    The Gotham City Sirens are the only 3 villainesses (if they can even be called that at this point) who appear in the Top 100 (I'm not counting Emma Frost as a villain as she has firmly been on the X-Men's side since the 90's). After the Sirens, the most used DC villainesses are Amanda Waller and then Talia Al Ghul. Cheetah is the 6th most used DC villainess but she's not in the Top 200 most used characters. Marvel has a worse record with their highest used villainess Mystique appearing out of the Top 100 at #120, with Black Cat and Moonstone being the only other two female villains in the Top 200, and Lady Deathstrike missing out at #252

    It is quite the terrible showing for female villains as there are only 9 who appear in the Top 250 most used characters, 6 of which are from DC:

    1. Catwoman (Rank #56) DC
    2. Harley Quinn (#80) DC
    3. Poison Ivy (#94) DC
    4. Mystique (#120) Marvel
    5. Amanda Waller (#130) DC
    6. Black Cat (#137) Marvel
    7. Moonstone (#171) Marvel
    8. Talia Al Ghul (#182) DC
    9. Cheetah (#216) DC

    https://comiccruncher.com/

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled View Post
    Actually, considering that Ivy has been part of team titles like Gotham City Sirens, Birds of Prey, Suicide Squad, shared titles with Harley and even had her own mini-series, young adult graphic novel and multiple one-offs, she and the other two Sirens are among the top 5 most used Batman villains, along with Joker and Penguin, according to this website which does a pretty good job of counting as many appearances as possible made by each character in comics: https://comiccruncher.com/

    The Gotham City Sirens are the only 3 villainesses (if they can even be called that at this point) who appear in the Top 100 (I'm not counting Emma Frost as a villain as she has firmly been on the X-Men's side since the 90's). After the Sirens, the most used DC villainesses are Amanda Waller and then Talia Al Ghul. Cheetah is the 6th most used DC villainess but she's not in the Top 200 most used characters. Marvel has a worse record with their highest used villainess Mystique appearing out of the Top 100 at #120, with Black Cat and Moonstone being the only other two female villains in the Top 200, and Lady Deathstrike missing out at #252

    It is quite the terrible showing for female villains as there are only 9 who appear in the Top 250 most used characters, 6 of which are from DC:

    1. Catwoman (Rank #56) DC
    2. Harley Quinn (#80) DC
    3. Poison Ivy (#94) DC
    4. Mystique (#120) Marvel
    5. Amanda Waller (#130) DC
    6. Black Cat (#137) Marvel
    7. Moonstone (#171) Marvel
    8. Talia Al Ghul (#182) DC
    9. Cheetah (#216) DC

    https://comiccruncher.com/
    Should Black Cat and Catwoman still count as villains?

  15. #165
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Should Black Cat and Catwoman still count as villains?
    Well, they're definitely characters that straddle the line.

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