possible signs of sexism, including weisman.

[Confuzzled]

Should Black Cat and Catwoman still count as villains?

Black Cat temporarily returned to villainy in the Superior Spider-Man era and her Queenpin arc. But yeah, both felines are morally ambiguous.

Considering the top 9 characters I listed above, the pattern that I picked up is that a female villain is usually only taken seriously and is given importance and development is if she becomes part of a line-up of a team book (Waller, Moonstone), becomes anti-heroic enough to lead her own title (Catwoman, Black Cat) or both (Harley, Ivy, Mystique).

So that leaves the last two, Talia and Cheetah. Talia beats Cheetah to be the female character most close to a true villain with the highest number of appearances (I am guessing mainly due to the Leviathan arc). So I guess that's what Cheetah needs to boost her cred as a legit Big Bad. A huge event that she is the sole mastermind of.

[Nyssane]

1. Catwoman (Rank #56) DC
2. Harley Quinn (#80) DC
3. Poison Ivy (#94) DC
4. Mystique (#120) Marvel
5. Amanda Waller (#130) DC
6. Black Cat (#137) Marvel
7. Moonstone (#171) Marvel
8. Talia Al Ghul (#182) DC
9. Cheetah (#216) DC

https://comiccruncher.com/

That's a really interesting site I haven't seen before! However, I noticed that each entry was "last synced" in 2019 which is quite a bit of time. Cheetah has appeared a lot in the last three years, especially with all the random appearances as part of the Legion of Doom, so I bet that bumped her up slightly.

[BiteTheBullet]

So that leaves the last two, Talia and Cheetah. Talia beats Cheetah to be the female character most close to a true villain with the highest number of appearances (I am guessing mainly due to the Leviathan arc). So I guess that's what Cheetah needs to boost her cred as a legit Big Bad. A huge event that she is the sole mastermind of.

So how does that take back the jobbing she has done consistently to the Batfamily? Unless they start a new universe up and show the power of Cheetah without these 'brilliant' portrayals of her against any of the Batfamily, she will always be considered a 2nd rate villain that can easily be taken care of by anyone outside the Wonder Family.

[DABellWrites]

The gap wasn't that wide. They fought at least once and Diana wasn't immediately steamrolled by him. Even if ahe wasn't exactly as strong as Superman, she was very close.

And Earth 3 Superwoman being stronger is easily disproven by how often Diana has beaten her, not to mention her being beaten by Black Canary.

I personally got the impression Superman wasn't ever fighting serious when he and Diana scraped, pre-crisis. Like in JLA #143, you can see Superman wasn't putting everything into his punches, but Diana is strong and Superman acknowledges her strength. Now, take the Gerry Conway story (the one about the atom bomb), you can see he writes Diana and Clark on an even level. I always got the impression Gerry Conway is one of those understood how Diana should be written.

How easily the JSA took down the Crime Syndicate, I can't say Black Canary beating Superwoman actually mattered. We saw Superwoman propel Wonder Woman nearly into space, but Black Canary took her down using jujitsu.

That was later on, after very obvious sexism, odd pseudo feminism, and more had screwed Wonder Woman heavily over already, and barely ever like that in the direct comparisons themselves, because even the DC back then seemed to understand at times what a bad look that truly is. From Marston's days up into a part of Kanhiger's days it was almost impossible to give a definitive answer about who was truly stronger because they could do both anything that was necessary for the story without even a broad general strength level, and Superman was by no means on a whole different level which would have also literally meant that Marston would have been literally too incompetent for his own idea.



From where are you getting that, and about which specific era before the crisis are you even talking?

Well, writers back then really didn't view strength as some "level" like we do now with power levels. Back then they were just strong, they had herculean strength. There's no real way to gauge how strong Wonder Woman and Superman was under their respective creators (though I highly believe Marston would say WW was stronger). I admit sexism did play apart in the butchering of Diana, but I just can't believe it extends to the readers-turned-writers. We'll just go down this road that'll never end blaming everyone, which doesn't help the situation.

Also, I'm referring to the Earth-1/Earth-2 continuity, I do not view Earth-2 as the original stories (especially for Wonder Woman).

[Rightoya]

Well, writers back then really didn't view strength as some "level" like we do now with power levels. Back then they were just strong, they had herculean strength. There's no real way to gauge how strong Wonder Woman and Superman was under their respective creators (though I highly believe Marston would say WW was stronger).

True.

I admit sexism did play apart in the butchering of Diana, but I just can't believe it extends to the readers-turned-writers. We'll just go down this road that'll never end blaming everyone, which doesn't help the situation.

Looking at these times i think sexism always played a notable part, but why would we go down a road to never blame anyone with that? DC and some of the writers are to blame, and if sexism is their excuse, that is just even more of a reason to blame them.

Also, I'm referring to the Earth-1/Earth-2 continuity, I do not view Earth-2 as the original stories (especially for Wonder Woman).

Ok, but why do you think it would be so clear that the Earth-3 Superwoman was stronger?

[Rightoya]

Actually, considering that Ivy has been part of team titles like Gotham City Sirens, Birds of Prey, Suicide Squad, shared titles with Harley and even had her own mini-series, young adult graphic novel and multiple one-offs, she and the other two Sirens are among the top 5 most used Batman villains, along with Joker and Penguin, according to this website which does a pretty good job of counting as many appearances as possible made by each character in comics: https://comiccruncher.com/

The Gotham City Sirens are the only 3 villainesses (if they can even be called that at this point) who appear in the Top 100 (I'm not counting Emma Frost as a villain as she has firmly been on the X-Men's side since the 90's). After the Sirens, the most used DC villainesses are Amanda Waller and then Talia Al Ghul. Cheetah is the 6th most used DC villainess but she's not in the Top 200 most used characters. Marvel has a worse record with their highest used villainess Mystique appearing out of the Top 100 at #120, with Black Cat and Moonstone being the only other two female villains in the Top 200, and Lady Deathstrike missing out at #252

It is quite the terrible showing for female villains as there are only 9 who appear in the Top 250 most used characters, 6 of which are from DC:

1. Catwoman (Rank #56) DC
2. Harley Quinn (#80) DC
3. Poison Ivy (#94) DC
4. Mystique (#120) Marvel
5. Amanda Waller (#130) DC
6. Black Cat (#137) Marvel
7. Moonstone (#171) Marvel
8. Talia Al Ghul (#182) DC
9. Cheetah (#216) DC

https://comiccruncher.com/

This is very interessting, especially considering that it is even debatable if Catwoman or Black Cat are truly villains, and Harley Quinn is often and even Poison Ivy sometimes not even portrayed as a villain. Which would kind of even reduce it to 5 or 6 villainesses, and just 0 or 1 in the top 100.

[Agent Z]

How easily the JSA took down the Crime Syndicate, I can't say Black Canary beating Superwoman actually mattered. We saw Superwoman propel Wonder Woman nearly into space, but Black Canary took her down using jujitsu.

So the JSA easily took down the Syndicate despite Superwoman somehow being stronger? And she still lost to Diana. Taking her into space doesn't mean she's stronger. That's been done to Superman by characters he is supposed to be superior to.

Having read the fight, it doesn't seem like the gap is very wide. At best, Diana is just surprised by how strong she is.

I admit sexism did play apart in the butchering of Diana, but I just can't believe it extends to the readers-turned-writers.

Why wouldn't it?

[DABellWrites]

So the JSA easily took down the Syndicate despite Superwoman somehow being stronger? And she still lost to Diana. Taking her into space doesn't mean she's stronger. That's been done to Superman by characters he is supposed to be superior to.





Why wouldn't it?

I should explain, I mean calling the readers-turned-writers sexist, which is what I mean. Anyways, I think we should acknowledge it happening to Superman isn't a big deal, but Diana is a different issue. One didn't suffer for it. You're right, Diana did beat her, but she had use all strength to do it. Re-reading the story again, I'll stick to my notion. I can't see WW winning if it weren't for the jet stream thing currents.

[WonderLight789]

I should explain, I mean calling the readers-turned-writers sexist, which is what I mean. Anyways, I think we should acknowledge it happening to Superman isn't a big deal, but Diana is a different issue. One didn't suffer for it. You're right, Diana did beat her, but she had use all strength to do it. Re-reading the story again, I'll stick to my notion. I can't see WW winning if it weren't for the jet stream thing currents.

That's way post Marston. Sexism was already a factor since the 50s.

Why is SM a different case about being sent almost into space? WW still beat Superwoman both in issue 29 and issue 30. The comics never showed any signs that Superwoman was stronger. And if Black Canary can beat her with jutsu moves. That just goes to prove how comics were and still are an inconsistent mess. Many silly inconsistencies still happen in current comics so it is not a thing from the past.

Many readers turned writers lived through countless of comics writen with sexism in them. So yes, there is a big possibility that they were influenced by them and carried on with sexist attitudes without them knowing. They can and should be blame for many sexist approaches and desicions.

[Confuzzled]

That's a really interesting site I haven't seen before! However, I noticed that each entry was "last synced" in 2019 which is quite a bit of time. Cheetah has appeared a lot in the last three years, especially with all the random appearances as part of the Legion of Doom, so I bet that bumped her up slightly.

Ooh good catch. But I think almost everyone ranking ahead of Cheetah were used as much as her so I don't think it switches up the positions much.

So how does that take back the jobbing she has done consistently to the Batfamily? Unless they start a new universe up and show the power of Cheetah without these 'brilliant' portrayals of her against any of the Batfamily, she will always be considered a 2nd rate villain that can easily be taken care of by anyone outside the Wonder Family.

Eh, Talia wasn't taken too seriously before Batman Inc. and Leviathan either. That one story did wonders for her, to the point where the recent Catwoman animated movie already took inspiration from it for her portrayal. Nobody is going to remember past jobbings if Cheetah gets a couple of really solid plotlines showing her as a legit threat for the heroes.

[BiteTheBullet]

Eh, Talia wasn't taken too seriously before Batman Inc. and Leviathan either. That one story did wonders for her, to the point where the recent Catwoman animated movie already took inspiration from it for her portrayal. Nobody is going to remember past jobbings if Cheetah gets a couple of really solid plotlines showing her as a legit threat for the heroes.

Right, no will remember her past jobbings!!! Come on, in what universe will this happen. The majority of people that actually have seen the Cheetah has been in animation and her one time in live action (and that was a truly bad showing of her). This cannot be un-remembered as well as anybody with access to HBOMax can see any of these jobbings anytime they want. Unless someone gets rid of the DC content on HBOMax or stops producing the Catwoman DVD's/Bluray's, then it's still going to linger on like stink on an outhouse! And that is only one of the animated movies that shows her in a bad light.

All the Batfamily addicts have to say is that Batman, let alone Catwoman, took out Cheetah with one punch. I don't think Diana has ever done that.

And, you are painting a very rosy picture if you think the Cheetah is going to get plotlines that feature her as a threat against heroes not named Wonder Woman. Didn't they try that in the nu52 before, and then the countless jobbings since then.

[WonderLight789]

Ooh good catch. But I think almost everyone ranking ahead of Cheetah were used as much as her so I don't think it switches up the positions much.



Eh, Talia wasn't taken too seriously before Batman Inc. and Leviathan either. That one story did wonders for her, to the point where the recent Catwoman animated movie already took inspiration from it for her portrayal. Nobody is going to remember past jobbings if Cheetah gets a couple of really solid plotlines showing her as a legit threat for the heroes.

Cheetah was literally introduced as an Avatar-Goddess type of character that can put up a fight against WW and even cause Flash difficulty with her speed. Pierce Superman's skin etc. Yet none of tgis has stopped DC from treating her like garbage and a jobber in many stories. So yeah. Sexism is a factor. I posted a link not too long ago here that you should read because it will help you see how sexism is a factor. And the fact that the writer behind the catwoman movie used Cheetah only because he wanted a cat fight. No other effort was put into Cheetah other than being there for a cat fight. Sexism.

[Alpha]

People do love to pity themselves don't they?

Oh no, DC doesn't care about Barbara Minerva! How awful, how sad. Poor kitty.

I don't hate Barbara Minerva, but she isn't worth all that clamor, and the more I read people crying about it the less interested I become. You really know how to make someone lose interest in comics.

And you have to be pretty ridiculous to call Greg Weisman of all people a sexist.

Cheetah has historically been a poor villain, with a handfull of decent stories. She isn't the measurement for gender equality (nor is Wonder Woman, regardless of how much I love her)

And I ended up watching the final fight in Catwoman hunted (still haven't watched the rest of the movie). Cheetah is treated as a gigantic monster that Selina has to run away from at all times. Selina gets very very lucky during this fight.
This is like when Black Widow is fighting the Hulk in the Avengers.

[Confuzzled]

Right, no will remember her past jobbings!!! Come on, in what universe will this happen.

Umm... in this universe? Poison Ivy sometimes gets jobbed to the Batfamily but nobody really remembers because newer stories have her depicted as an elemental goddess that can take over Gotham and sometimes the entire world by herself and can only be subdued if she is talked out of it by Harley and co. The Riddler was seen as a joke villain until recently when he has been depicted as a real terror. Cheetah can be terrifying if people want her to be.

Cheetah was literally introduced as an Avatar-Goddess type of character that can put up a fight against WW and even cause Flash difficulty with her speed. Pierce Superman's skin etc. Yet none of tgis has stopped DC from treating her like garbage and a jobber in many stories. So yeah. Sexism is a factor. I posted a link not too long ago here that you should read because it will help you see how sexism is a factor. And the fact that the writer behind the catwoman movie used Cheetah only because he wanted a cat fight. No other effort was put into Cheetah other than being there for a cat fight. Sexism.

I am not saying sexism isn't a factor. I also don't think the "damage" is permanent and can be solved if a writer depicts Cheetah as the force of nature that she is supposed to be.

[WonderLight789]

People do love to pity themselves don't they?

Oh no, DC doesn't care about Barbara Minerva! How awful, how sad. Poor kitty.

I don't hate Barbara Minerva, but she isn't worth all that clamor, and the more I read people crying about it the less interested I become. You really know how to make someone lose interest in comics.

And you have to be pretty ridiculous to call Greg Weisman of all people a sexist.

Cheetah has historically been a poor villain, with a handfull of decent stories. She isn't the measurement for gender equality (nor is Wonder Woman, regardless of how much I love her)

And I ended up watching the final fight in Catwoman hunted (still haven't watched the rest of the movie). Cheetah is treated as a gigantic monster that Selina has to run away from at all times. Selina gets very very lucky during this fight.
This is like when Black Widow is fighting the Hulk in the Avengers.

Just because you don't care much about Cheetah doesn't mean others shouldl feel the same way. And just because you think there is nothing wrong with an archy villain of WW originally designed to be a physical challenge to her, being treated as a jobber. Doesn't mean others feel the same way.

And the clip once again shows how crummy the writing was. They stated Cheetah is powered up by a God and fights WW. Yet seline gets ''lucky'' surviving hits that she shouldn't. Keeping up with somebody way faster.

WW herself is treated as a jobber in many stories. And it is totally understandable that a lot of fans don't like it.