possible signs of sexism, including weisman.

[SiegePerilous02]

If there is one thing I'm proud of having done on this forum, it is to introduce the term "gender essentialism" with regards to Marston. Because Marston was sexist as hell, just in a wholly different way than most of us think about sexism.

It was definitely a good thing to introduce into this subforum in particular.

[phonogram12]

DeConnick made a point in a recent interview that presenting the Amazons as flawless is dehumanizing.

I knew I liked DeConnick. If it wasn't for Phil Jimenez on art chores, I would've been all over Historia.

Using examples of Gregs work w/WW/Cheetah arent cases of sexism.
Making WW not invulnerable or as strong as Superman doesn't constitute instant sexism.

Having Cheetah get defeated by another female doesn't constitute sexism. This is just another glorified "powers" complaint.

Isn't this topic covered in about a billion other threads he created?

The topic is serious, but how serious can a bunch of spammed threads be?

#FACTS

[donnafan]

I knew I liked DeConnick. If it wasn't for Phil Jimenez on art chores, I would've been all over Historia.





#FACTS

Disagree. This is an important and relevant issue in comics. It's not just another power-level complaint when we're talking about equal treatment. Besides Cheetah, members of the Wonder Woman "family" including Wonder Woman herself, have been de-powered and routinely written to be less-powerful than male counterparts. That is sexism and not just a run-of-the-mill power level complaint. As fans, I think it's important to point these issues out and continue talking about it. Tell a little girl who looks up to Wonder Woman that it's OK to dream to be whatever you want but, you'll never be as good as a boy. That's why.

[kjn]

DeConnick made a point in a recent interview that presenting the Amazons as flawless is dehumanizing. She mentioned before that she rejected Marston, or at least some of his ideas, and we can probably link those two statements together. Marston saying men are inferior to women isn't true feminism and can be harmful to both genders. Plus yeah, the fetish fuel.

Depicting the Amazons is tricky, and has to thread between the Scylla of perfect, static, and dehumanised, and the Charybdis of being misandrists who needs to be educated.

If we had lots of different visions or examples of all-female utopias and societies, then we wouldn't place such a burden on the Amazons, but now we don't, so we do. I guess that makes the need of having the Amazons around much greater. And Wonder Woman too, for that matter.

One of the more important pieces to recognise when it comes to Wonder Woman, DC, and sexism is that she is both labouring under sexist patterns and an alibi for defence against sexism. "We publish Wonder Woman" is similar to "we have Gail Simone" (as some DC people said about the New 52 and the very few women creators they had), or "I have a black friend". And without the Amazons Diana becomes even more of the lone exceptional woman, who thus becomes no threat to the patriarchy.

Because that was a thing that at least Marston understood: Wonder Woman needed to be a superhero because of the Amazons, not despite them.

[phonogram12]

Disagree. This is an important and relevant issue in comics. It's not just another power-level complaint when we're talking about equal treatment. Besides Cheetah, members of the Wonder Woman "family" including Wonder Woman herself, have been de-powered and routinely written to be less-powerful than male counterparts. That is sexism and not just a run-of-the-mill power level complaint. As fans, I think it's important to point these issues out and continue talking about it. Tell a little girl who looks up to Wonder Woman that it's OK to dream to be whatever you want but, you'll never be as good as a boy. That's why.

If fans feel that way, I get it. What I don't get is why it seems like nearly every thread in here seems to turn into a power level complaint, usually because of one poster. There are other facets to the character that are just as important that seem to get ignored because this one poster makes every thread (regardless of it's original intent) about the same topic.

[BiteTheBullet]

If fans feel that way, I get it. What I don't get is why it seems like nearly every thread in here seems to turn into a power level complaint, usually because of one poster. There are other facets to the character that are just as important that seem to get ignored because this one poster makes every thread (regardless of it's original intent) about the same topic.

Respect her powers first. She is a comic book character after all.

Then write good stories exploring these other facets without disrespecting her, or her villains.

That is about as simple as it gets. If they only get one of two right, that is not exactly hitting it out of the ballpark. More like a failing grade.

All I want is a good story without disrespecting her powerset!

[Primal Slayer]

Respect her powers first. She is a comic book character after all.

Then write good stories exploring these other facets without disrespecting her, or her villains.

That is about as simple as it gets. If they only get one of two right, that is not exactly hitting it out of the ballpark. More like a failing grade.

All I want is a good story without disrespecting her powerset!

So if she's a stone cold killer its more acceptable as long as she is the strongest in the story?

[BiteTheBullet]

So if she's a stone cold killer its more acceptable as long as she is the strongest in the story?

Wtf are you talking about?

I said to respect her powers. It doesn't mean that she is the best, or strongest, or that she is a stone cold killer. Keep strawmanning the argument. I'll accept that she isn't, for example, as strong as Superman. No skin off my back. But she should be equal in strength to a female kryptonian. At one point, during the last of her arc before the JMS debacle, they did seem to respect her much better than they do now. Just check out the brother eye / checkmate story with Blue Beetle. I thought that was beautifully done. Good story, even though Blue Beetle took a headshot from Max, without disrespecting her powers. (Wow, double bonus, good story and she still has the powers that she is supposed to have). Maybe some of this has to do with Rucka who was around that time for the end of that series.

It can be done, but sure keep strawmanning mine and other people's arguments. If you can show where I implied that she has to be the strongest, or that she has to be a stone cold killer, then I will quit this board. Of course, you will never find that since I have never said that.

If a writer can't write both a good story for someone as powerful as she should be, then DC should fire the writer and get someone that can. Of course all those writers seem to be working on the Bat family books since those are the only ones that seem to crack the top 50 among DC titles.

[Primal Slayer]

It was just insinuated that Powers are #1 in importance of WW. That's what im talking about.

[phonogram12]

Respect her powers first.

Yeah, no. I don't approach any superhero this way. Or any character for that matter. The character is the cake. The powers are just the icing.

So if she's a stone cold killer its more acceptable as long as she is the strongest in the story?

Exactly.

[Alpha]

It was just insinuated that Powers are #1 in importance of WW. That's what im talking about.

Yup, Primal Slayer is spitting facts

[BiteTheBullet]

Yup, Primal Slayer is spitting facts

Lets hope it's only spitting facts. Maybe Primal Slayer drools lies?

[BiteTheBullet]

Yeah, no. I don't approach any superhero this way. Or any character for that matter. The character is the cake. The powers are just the icing.



Exactly.

Is this your way of saying that if you like the story even if it portrays Wonder Woman as a spidey level wannabe, that all is good? That a writer can't do both since the story is so good? Sounds like bad writing to me, then.

[phonogram12]

Lets hope it's only spitting facts. Maybe Primal Slayer drools lies?

I mean, he hasn't yet!

[phonogram12]

Is this your way of saying that if you like the story even if it portrays Wonder Woman as a spidey level wannabe, that all is good? That a writer can't do both since the story is so good? Sounds like bad writing to me, then.

So is making powers the #1 priority. Like I'm pretty sure Primal Slayer implied, you can't have a good story where the only priority is power levels. Otherwise, you get a bunch of '90s Image nonsense. All spectacle and no substance.

A writer can do both. It just sounds like certain posters can't be bothered with character (or anything else regarding WW, for that matter) if she can't move planets.