Nubia: Coronation Special

[Fuzzy Mittens]

You might have been right pre-Crisis, but starting with Perez, when has it ever been shown that Nubia is more powerful than your average amazon? Or, if she does have powers that puts her on Diana's level, when was it ever shown, stated or explained how this happened?

Nubia and the Amazons #4 shows Nubia cutting off a manticores tail with one swing of a sword, shield bashing it through a building, punching it into another wall, then doing a german suplex on said manticore. Also it was roughly 2-3 times the size of a lion.

Still have not seen a limit to how Nubia or the average Amazon is in terms of strength compared to Diana, but its still feasible

[BiteTheBullet]

Nubia and the Amazons #4 shows Nubia cutting off a manticores tail with one swing of a sword, shield bashing it through a building, punching it into another wall, then doing a german suplex on said manticore. Also it was roughly 2-3 times the size of a lion.

Still have not seen a limit to how Nubia or the average Amazon is in terms of strength compared to Diana, but its still feasible

Still, does not sound like an explanation of how she is a 'super' amazon. Did she does this to the manitcore that any amazon could have done?

Unless the writers show or tell us, we can't assume she is just as blessed and/or as powerful as Wonder Woman/Diana. If Diana has the Zeus origin which is or isn't the case depending on the writer, then Nubia can't have the same powerset as Diana. If Diana has the Perez origin, then where does Nubia get the gift of the gods like Diana did? It's examples like this where I need to be shown/told how Nubia has gifts beyond the normal amazon. Otherwise, it is just lazy writing, same as Artemis holding her own against Bizarro as an example.

[Perseus]

You might have been right pre-Crisis, but starting with Perez, when has it ever been shown that Nubia is more powerful than your average amazon? Or, if she does have powers that puts her on Diana's level, when was it ever shown, stated or explained how this happened?

That's the point I'm trying to go with. They fought twice back then, onetime to a standstill and another Diana lost. It doesn't really matter, to me, how she's Diana's equal, just that she is and that there IS and explanation for it. She could be blessed after becoming champion of Dooms doorway, there could be a spiritual bond between her and Diana, OR we go back to the golden age and have her actually be Diana's sister. I feel like this is one of those cases where the team is trying to have a their cake and eat it too.

[BiteTheBullet]

That's the point I'm trying to go with. They fought twice back then, onetime to a standstill and another Diana lost. It doesn't really matter, to me, how she's Diana's equal, just that she is and that there IS and explanation for it. She could be blessed after becoming champion of Dooms doorway, there could be a spiritual bond between her and Diana, OR we go back to the golden age and have her actually be Diana's sister. I feel like this is one of those cases where the team is trying to have a their cake and eat it too.

It does matter to me how she could be Diana's equal. Diana, for me, was unique among the amazons, either being blessed by the gods or even being a daughter of Zeus. Either way she is/was unique. If they somehow say Nubia is the same without even explaining why, Diana loses her uniqueness, much like how the Last son of Krypton loses his when there are many others like him still left alive after Kryptons destruction.

It's even worse, in a sense, when they don't even explain why Nubia might have powers greater than your average amazon. Again, for me, it goes to lazy writing. If we just take Wonder Woman after Perez's origin, no where can we find other amazons gifted like Diana. If we go pre-crisis, we might as well have Diana glide on air currents if we are going with a 'twin' in Nubia. Which is it? Raises more questions than we will get answers for.

[SonOfBaldwin]

It's even worse, in a sense, when they don't even explain why Nubia might have powers greater than your average amazon.

It was explained in the Nubia and the Amazons miniseries that Nubia's powers (which will be explored and defined in the Nubia: Queen of the Amazons limited series) developed due to her ongoing, close, and consistent exposure and proximity to Doom's Doorway and its mystical properties.

[Stanlos]

There's a lot of hemming and hawing but thanks to 52 and the breathtakingly generic origin it gave Diana there are NOT a lot of knowns. I have decided rather than lament the loss of the excellent work done in volume 2 I will instead be excited for and open to the future.

As far as powers and disposition discussions go, I always go back to the design if it is known. And while not as relentlessly detailed as Diana's, or Captain Marvel, there are some knowns around the intent of Nubia's creation that I would argue should be honored in spirit if not by.letter.

Nubia was designed to be every bit the equal of Themyscira's champion Diana and was shown to be exactly such. Some differences existed due to her proximity to Mars making her more ruthless but every bit as skilled and every bit as powerful.

Now they have for good or ill nixxed the Twin origin (I guess the logistics of the silly Zeus thing made that necessary but who knows). Instead they have cast Diana as a demi-goddess, one of MANY.

With that origin it is EASY to see how anyone can rival or surpass her because that is NOT unique or rare in the slightest. But regardless of the details and what one might prefer, the fact remains that if Nubia is cast as a lesser power then they are doing it wrong in the same way and for the same reason they would be doing it wrong to depict Diana as some lesser of some superhuman male. It is in black and white and historically recorded what she's supposed to be and that ain't it.

If they are going to diverge there would need to be agood justification and there ain't one.

[Koriand'r]

I remember Jill Thompson's Wonder Woman looking like a dark haired Mariah Carey and now her Nubia looks like Whoopi Goldberg. I really enjoyed the special, especially the big cats and the talk with the Martian Manhunter but I had to skip Jill's part, I hope it was good for everyone else.

[Stanlos]

I remember Jill Thompson's Wonder Woman looking like a dark haired Mariah Carey and now her Nubia looks like Whoopi Goldberg. I really enjoyed the special, especially the big cats and the talk with the Martian Manhunter but I had to skip Jill's part, I hope it was good for everyone else.

The palatability of Jill's work for me depends on the inker and colors. When the synergy hits just right her stuff is GORGEOUS (interiors of vol 2 #54-55 is a great example)

[Koriand'r]

The palatability of Jill's work for me depends on the inker and colors. When the synergy hits just right her stuff is GORGEOUS (interiors of vol 2 #54-55 is a great example)

I've seen her in interviews and she's a nice lady. There is some of her work I like though.

thompsonww.jpg

[WonderLight789]

There's a lot of hemming and hawing but thanks to 52 and the breathtakingly generic origin it gave Diana there are NOT a lot of knowns. I have decided rather than lament the loss of the excellent work done in volume 2 I will instead be excited for and open to the future.

As far as powers and disposition discussions go, I always go back to the design if it is known. And while not as relentlessly detailed as Diana's, or Captain Marvel, there are some knowns around the intent of Nubia's creation that I would argue should be honored in spirit if not by.letter.

Nubia was designed to be every bit the equal of Themyscira's champion Diana and was shown to be exactly such. Some differences existed due to her proximity to Mars making her more ruthless but every bit as skilled and every bit as powerful.

Now they have for good or ill nixxed the Twin origin (I guess the logistics of the silly Zeus thing made that necessary but who knows). Instead they have cast Diana as a demi-goddess, one of MANY.

With that origin it is EASY to see how anyone can rival or surpass her because that is NOT unique or rare in the slightest. But regardless of the details and what one might prefer, the fact remains that if Nubia is cast as a lesser power then they are doing it wrong in the same way and for the same reason they would be doing it wrong to depict Diana as some lesser of some superhuman male. It is in black and white and historically recorded what she's supposed to be and that ain't it.

If they are going to diverge there would need to be agood justification and there ain't one.

Rebirth WW is literally gifted with powers from multiple Gods including Zeus. Unlike other amazons and jason share the same treatment then no. They can't be her equal let alone more powerful.

[SonOfBaldwin]

Rebirth WW is literally gifted with powers from multiple Gods including Zeus. Unlike other amazons and jason share the same treatment then no. They can't be her equal let alone more powerful.

"Can't" is doing a lot of work in that sentence, especially when we're talking about magic and mysticism.

[SonOfBaldwin]

I loved that we got a retelling of Nubia's origin that honors aspects of the original. We even got takes on her previous looks, which I really appreciated. Stephanie Williams is very committed to world building for Nubia, and by extension, the Amazons.

[WonderLight789]

"Can't" is doing a lot of work in that sentence, especially when we're talking about magic and mysticism.

We aren't talking about that in a proper way. Magic and mysticism have their logic and rules too. Otherwise they just become excuses that writers try to use to defend their lazy writing. Current Donna Troy, Cassie, Nubia, Artemis etc have no connection to the same power source as WW. Diana received powers from multiple Gods and probably the hecate mark is still around too. The other characters don't have any of this. So acting like they can all perform on her level without giving an actual explanation, and just sayin hey ''magic'' is not going to cut it.

[Shimbo]

Ironic how persistent gate-keeping is in every fandom, particularly when it comes to characters of color.

[SonOfBaldwin]

We aren't talking about that in a proper way. Magic and mysticism have their logic and rules too. Otherwise they just become excuses that writers try to use to defend their lazy writing. Current Donna Troy, Cassie, Nubia, Artemis etc have no connection to the same power source as WW. Diana received powers from multiple Gods and probably the hecate mark is still around too. The other characters don't have any of this. So acting like they can all perform on her level without giving an actual explanation, and just sayin hey ''magic'' is not going to cut it.

Actually, this is what we do know: That Nubia's centuries as the guard of Doom's Doorway exposed her to great magic and mysticism in ways that she absorbed. We can't say automatically that however she's been altered, augmented, and enhanced by this exposure *can't* be a significant as Diana because Diana was blessed by multiple gods.

There are lots of unknowns in Diana's blessings:

What is the exact level of each blessing? Are the blessings limitless? Did each goddesses give Diana access to their full power or just a fraction? How is that measured? What is it measured against? How does the mysticism of those specific goddesses measure against the mysticism Nubia was exposed to? Why are we to assume that the mysticism Nubia was exposed to is lesser (or greater for that matter) than that which Diana was blessed with? Where is it written in the canon that blessings by these specific deities makes one more powerful than other people blessed by a different form of mysticism?

Whatever the logic and rules of magic within the Wonder Woman/DC universe, nothing in the canon precludes Diana and Nubia from being on equal footing except readers who will come up with their own reasons for why it shouldn't be the case. In fact, if anything, the canon, as Stanlos pointed out, provides evidence that they *are* on equal footing.

I'm not sure why this is being interpreted as zero-sum, that if Nubia is as powerful as Diana, it makes Diana "less special." Really? That's all it takes to erase Wonder Woman's influence and history? We think of her as that fragile an intellectual property? That's such an odd perspective, since there are so many aspects to Diana that make her an interesting, compelling character despite the number of other characters there are, within the DCU and without, inspired by her, carbon copies of her, etc. She can only be special of she is the Specialest Shining Snowflake of Them All? I can't rock with that "There Can Only Be One!" pathology that seems popular among people with strong power fantasies. I know dudebros get their jockstraps in a bunch at the mere suggestion that Diana can stand toe-to-toe with Kal, but I imagined Wonder Woman readers to be made of more intellectual, nuanced stuff than that.

Just give me good stories with great art and compelling characterization and stakes that I can invest in, and I'm good. I'll leave the "My hero can beat your hero!" to my pre-teen nieces, nephews, and niblings. I'm grown, after all.