Nubia: Coronation Special

[WonderLight789]

Actually, this is what we do know: That Nubia's centuries as the guard of Doom's Doorway exposed her to great magic and mysticism in ways that she absorbed. We can't say automatically that however she's been altered, augmented, and enhanced by this exposure *can't* be a significant as Diana because Diana was blessed by multiple gods.

There are lots of unknowns in Diana's blessings:

What is the exact level of each blessing? Are the blessings limitless? Did each goddesses give Diana access to their full power or just a fraction? How is that measured? What is it measured against? How does the mysticism of those specific goddesses measure against the mysticism Nubia was exposed to? Why are we to assume that the mysticism Nubia was exposed to is lesser (or greater for that matter) than that which Diana was blessed with? Where is it written in the canon that blessings by these specific deities makes one more powerful than other people blessed by a different form of mysticism?

Whatever the logic and rules of magic within the Wonder Woman/DC universe, nothing in the canon precludes Diana and Nubia from being on equal footing except readers who will come up with their own reasons for why it shouldn't be the case. In fact, if anything, the canon, as Stanlos pointed out, provides evidence that they *are* on equal footing.

I'm not sure why this is being interpreted as zero-sum, that if Nubia is as powerful as Diana, it makes Diana "less special." Really? That's all it takes to erase Wonder Woman's influence and history? We think of her as that fragile an intellectual property? That's such an odd perspective, since there are so many aspects to Diana that make her an interesting, compelling character despite the number of other characters there are, within the DCU and without, inspired by her, carbon copies of her, etc. She can only be special of she is the Specialest Shining Snowflake of Them All? I can't rock with that "There Can Only Be One!" pathology that seems popular among people with strong power fantasies. I know dudebros get their jockstraps in a bunch at the mere suggestion that Diana can stand toe-to-toe with Kal, but I imagined Wonder Woman readers to be made of more intellectual, nuanced stuff than that.

Just give me good stories with great art and compelling characterization and stakes that I can invest in, and I'm good. I'll leave the "My hero can beat your hero!" to my pre-teen nieces, nephews, and niblings. I'm grown, after all.

Because based on actual feats. Nubia is a weaklink. And that says a lot. Because WW from 2011 and onwards hasn't been that imporessive either power wise. And Nubia is even weaker based on quantifiable performances.

I want my stories to be good and my heroes to be crazy powerful. Because part of WW's charm as a character is that she is supposed to be crazy powerful. And if Nubia is on that level i want an explanation. WW writers always do this. They barely explain anyting. Everything is shoe horned, constricted, unorganic and lazy.

[Perseus]

I'm just going to say that arguing that Nubia should be weaker than Diana because it takes away Diana's uniqueness is the same argument that some Superman fans use to justify why Diana should be weaker than Clark. It's a bad argument.

I agree that Diana has been lackluster at best when it comes to basic feats of strength and power and that does extend to the other amazons in comparison as well. I do think that Nubia's justification for being as power as Diana does need to be more than just "I was in dooms doorway for a while, and I soaked up some magic energy".

[Gaius]

Actually, this is what we do know: That Nubia's centuries as the guard of Doom's Doorway exposed her to great magic and mysticism in ways that she absorbed. We can't say automatically that however she's been altered, augmented, and enhanced by this exposure *can't* be a significant as Diana because Diana was blessed by multiple gods.

There are lots of unknowns in Diana's blessings:

What is the exact level of each blessing? Are the blessings limitless? Did each goddesses give Diana access to their full power or just a fraction? How is that measured? What is it measured against? How does the mysticism of those specific goddesses measure against the mysticism Nubia was exposed to? Why are we to assume that the mysticism Nubia was exposed to is lesser (or greater for that matter) than that which Diana was blessed with? Where is it written in the canon that blessings by these specific deities makes one more powerful than other people blessed by a different form of mysticism?

Whatever the logic and rules of magic within the Wonder Woman/DC universe, nothing in the canon precludes Diana and Nubia from being on equal footing except readers who will come up with their own reasons for why it shouldn't be the case. In fact, if anything, the canon, as Stanlos pointed out, provides evidence that they *are* on equal footing.

I'm not sure why this is being interpreted as zero-sum, that if Nubia is as powerful as Diana, it makes Diana "less special." Really? That's all it takes to erase Wonder Woman's influence and history? We think of her as that fragile an intellectual property? That's such an odd perspective, since there are so many aspects to Diana that make her an interesting, compelling character despite the number of other characters there are, within the DCU and without, inspired by her, carbon copies of her, etc. She can only be special of she is the Specialest Shining Snowflake of Them All? I can't rock with that "There Can Only Be One!" pathology that seems popular among people with strong power fantasies. I know dudebros get their jockstraps in a bunch at the mere suggestion that Diana can stand toe-to-toe with Kal, but I imagined Wonder Woman readers to be made of more intellectual, nuanced stuff than that.

Just give me good stories with great art and compelling characterization and stakes that I can invest in, and I'm good. I'll leave the "My hero can beat your hero!" to my pre-teen nieces, nephews, and niblings. I'm grown, after all.

[SiegePerilous02]

Actually, this is what we do know: That Nubia's centuries as the guard of Doom's Doorway exposed her to great magic and mysticism in ways that she absorbed. We can't say automatically that however she's been altered, augmented, and enhanced by this exposure *can't* be a significant as Diana because Diana was blessed by multiple gods.

There are lots of unknowns in Diana's blessings:

What is the exact level of each blessing? Are the blessings limitless? Did each goddesses give Diana access to their full power or just a fraction? How is that measured? What is it measured against? How does the mysticism of those specific goddesses measure against the mysticism Nubia was exposed to? Why are we to assume that the mysticism Nubia was exposed to is lesser (or greater for that matter) than that which Diana was blessed with? Where is it written in the canon that blessings by these specific deities makes one more powerful than other people blessed by a different form of mysticism?

Whatever the logic and rules of magic within the Wonder Woman/DC universe, nothing in the canon precludes Diana and Nubia from being on equal footing except readers who will come up with their own reasons for why it shouldn't be the case. In fact, if anything, the canon, as Stanlos pointed out, provides evidence that they *are* on equal footing.

I'm not sure why this is being interpreted as zero-sum, that if Nubia is as powerful as Diana, it makes Diana "less special." Really? That's all it takes to erase Wonder Woman's influence and history? We think of her as that fragile an intellectual property? That's such an odd perspective, since there are so many aspects to Diana that make her an interesting, compelling character despite the number of other characters there are, within the DCU and without, inspired by her, carbon copies of her, etc. She can only be special of she is the Specialest Shining Snowflake of Them All? I can't rock with that "There Can Only Be One!" pathology that seems popular among people with strong power fantasies. I know dudebros get their jockstraps in a bunch at the mere suggestion that Diana can stand toe-to-toe with Kal, but I imagined Wonder Woman readers to be made of more intellectual, nuanced stuff than that.

Just give me good stories with great art and compelling characterization and stakes that I can invest in, and I'm good. I'll leave the "My hero can beat your hero!" to my pre-teen nieces, nephews, and niblings. I'm grown, after all.

Lol no, the WW fanbase has never been that nuanced when it comes to accepting their own power fantasy being challenged. It doesn't just involve Superman. If the idea of Supergirl, Power Girl or Mary Marvel being slightly stronger than her is floated out, expect heavy resistance. The WW and Superman fanbases react pretty much the same way for their characters

The intent of Nubia has always seemed to be that she's even with Diana whenever she is present. She isn't around consistently enough to be upstaged by Diana in feats to change that idea, so we might as well stick with the original intention. Whether she got similar blessings at some point or got power from Dooms Doorway, does it actually matter?

[BiteTheBullet]

Lol no, the WW fanbase has never been that nuanced when it comes to accepting their own power fantasy being challenged. It doesn't just involve Superman. If the idea of Supergirl, Power Girl or Mary Marvel being slightly stronger than her is floated out, expect heavy resistance. The WW and Superman fanbases react pretty much the same way for their characters

The intent of Nubia has always seemed to be that she's even with Diana whenever she is present. She isn't around consistently enough to be upstaged by Diana in feats to change that idea, so we might as well stick with the original intention. Whether she got similar blessings at some point or got power from Dooms Doorway, does it actually matter?

Yes, it matters. This is no small detail. If, and I have not seen anything to contradict this, all amazons besides Cassie, Donna and Diana are far above all amazons in powers and abilities, then we do need a good reason why any other amazon would be on the same level. If they have items like the sandals that can give them flight or the gauntlet to give them enhanced strength, at least that is a reason. Otherwise, why don't they take a contingent of about 50 to Dooms doorway every century so they can 'absorb' the magic of the area so that they have super abilities. This way all the amazons will eventually have the power that Nubia possesses and therefore the amazons will truly be forces to be reckoned with, instead of the canon fodder that they get treated to be like in amazons attack. By the way, the idea that they somehow gain powers and abilities just by virtue of guarding Dooms doorway is stupid, in my opinion.

[SiegePerilous02]

Yes, it matters. This is no small detail. If, and I have not seen anything to contradict this, all amazons besides Cassie, Donna and Diana are far above all amazons in powers and abilities, then we do need a good reason why any other amazon would be on the same level. If they have items like the sandals that can give them flight or the gauntlet to give them enhanced strength, at least that is a reason. Otherwise, why don't they take a contingent of about 50 to Dooms doorway every century so they can 'absorb' the magic of the area so that they have super abilities. This way all the amazons will eventually have the power that Nubia possesses and therefore the amazons will truly be forces to be reckoned with, instead of the canon fodder that they get treated to be like in amazons attack. By the way, the idea that they somehow gain powers and abilities just by virtue of guarding Dooms doorway is stupid, in my opinion.

I think the Dooms Doorway idea is a bit silly and full of holes, and would prefer the twin origin with Nubia getting similar blessings.

But the basic idea of Nubia being equally powerful seems to be at the core of her creation as a concept, so I can see why DC would prioritize that over being concerned with the details lining up. Especially as they insist on keeping Zeus, so they have to pull something else out of their ass instead of going with the old origin.

[BiteTheBullet]

I think the Dooms Doorway idea is a bit silly and full of holes, and would prefer the twin origin with Nubia getting similar blessings.

But the basic idea of Nubia being equally powerful seems to be at the core of her creation as a concept, so I can see why DC would prioritize that over being concerned with the details lining up. Especially as they insist on keeping Zeus, so they have to pull something else out of their ass instead of going with the old origin.

That is what I mean by lazy writing. If the best they can come up with is absorbing magic from Dooms doorway as a way of saying Nubia gets her powers, that just seems idiotic and lazy to me.

[Perseus]

Actually, this is what we do know: That Nubia's centuries as the guard of Doom's Doorway exposed her to great magic and mysticism in ways that she absorbed. We can't say automatically that however she's been altered, augmented, and enhanced by this exposure *can't* be a significant as Diana because Diana was blessed by multiple gods.

There are lots of unknowns in Diana's blessings:

What is the exact level of each blessing? Are the blessings limitless? Did each goddesses give Diana access to their full power or just a fraction? How is that measured? What is it measured against? How does the mysticism of those specific goddesses measure against the mysticism Nubia was exposed to? Why are we to assume that the mysticism Nubia was exposed to is lesser (or greater for that matter) than that which Diana was blessed with? Where is it written in the canon that blessings by these specific deities makes one more powerful than other people blessed by a different form of mysticism?

Whatever the logic and rules of magic within the Wonder Woman/DC universe, nothing in the canon precludes Diana and Nubia from being on equal footing except readers who will come up with their own reasons for why it shouldn't be the case. In fact, if anything, the canon, as Stanlos pointed out, provides evidence that they *are* on equal footing.

I'm not sure why this is being interpreted as zero-sum, that if Nubia is as powerful as Diana, it makes Diana "less special." Really? That's all it takes to erase Wonder Woman's influence and history? We think of her as that fragile an intellectual property? That's such an odd perspective, since there are so many aspects to Diana that make her an interesting, compelling character despite the number of other characters there are, within the DCU and without, inspired by her, carbon copies of her, etc. She can only be special of she is the Specialest Shining Snowflake of Them All? I can't rock with that "There Can Only Be One!" pathology that seems popular among people with strong power fantasies. I know dudebros get their jockstraps in a bunch at the mere suggestion that Diana can stand toe-to-toe with Kal, but I imagined Wonder Woman readers to be made of more intellectual, nuanced stuff than that.

Just give me good stories with great art and compelling characterization and stakes that I can invest in, and I'm good. I'll leave the "My hero can beat your hero!" to my pre-teen nieces, nephews, and niblings. I'm grown, after all.

I'm just gonna answer some of the questions here...

If we are going with the general/classic "blessed by multiple Gods" route ala Perez and Rucka, then Diana's blessings don't really have a limit. I'm just going to focus on strength speed and durability since that's usually the focus and yeah, I expect Nubia to be on par with this.

In terms of strength and durability, we see that Demeter granted her with strength and power "like that of the earth itself". We can assume that this was year one base Diana, since under Perez she slow grew into that strength. However, she's also been stated to be Stronger than Hercules. Hercules is exactly as strong as Shazam, since he gave Billy his strength, meaning we can essentially use both their feats as one character. Hercules himself has done the whole "lifting the infinite weight of the Heavens" thing like in myth and Shazam has punched black holes into existence on top of fighting Superman several times, Diana has bested both Hercules and Shazam in one-on-one fights to prove the Stronger than title, I believe she once fought Shazam but it was a tie way back when. Diana herself has stated that she's never found a limit to her strength. In short, Diana is stated to be stronger than Hercules, a guy that has lifted infinity, Diana being stronger is basically a fancy way of saying "she has no limit".

Speed is a little more complicated. Hermes grants her just speed (we don't know how much) and flight. It's clearly beyond human comprehension. She's blocked millions upon millions of faster than light god shards, kept pace with Flash at over 9000 mph and could easily double it, has moved way faster than light, and has both stated and proved to be "faster than Superman" via Batman and their fights. She's also been said to be swifter than Hermes. However, Hermes has been shown to (at least in the past) run circles around flash. I don't believe for a second that Diana is faster than Flash. So, IMO, it all depends on what definition people want to use for swiftness. I consider swiftness to be more about combat speed then raw point A to point B speed. This is why I separate raw speed and combat speed/reflexes. Does Diana have a limit for speed? well, yes and no. She should easily be one of the swiftest fighters, capable of fighting at flash level speeds, which in on itself is absurd, easily faster than light. However, she does have a limit in raw speed, which is basically several steps below where Flash is, the same rule applies for Superman in this regard.

So... yes, her powers are mostly limitless. None are given an exact level. Really, only Athena and Aphrodite could even be considered granting Diana access to their "full power", Wise as Athena and Beautiful as Aphrodite. And even then, on paper Athena just gave her general wisdom, so again no real limit. It's hard to measure given its limitless, but it definitely shouldn't stop below city level. Outside of speed being really measured with Flash like every other character, she normally is put up against Superman, Shazam, Thor etc...

Again, I want/expect Nubia to be at this level.

However, I agree with BitetheBullet. Nubia gaining power in Dooms Doorway comes with more questions than answers. If Nubia started out as a regular amazon and gained Diana levels of power via proximity inside the Doorway, why don't ALL the amazons do that? Why not just move Themyscira into the Doorway via magic and just stay there to get more powerful? how does this affect or not affect the demons already in Dooms Doorway? This is just off the top of my head. Dooms Doorway was originally just a mega prison that connected to the underworld. Why make it more complicated by adding this mystic energy thing?

Nubia becomes Champion of Dooms Doorway, as such she is blessed by the patrons with the same power and strength as Diana to guard it effectively. There, not complicated, everyone gets what they want.

[SonOfBaldwin]

I'm just gonna answer some of the questions here...

If we are going with the general/classic "blessed by multiple Gods" route ala Perez and Rucka, then Diana's blessings don't really have a limit. I'm just going to focus on strength speed and durability since that's usually the focus and yeah, I expect Nubia to be on par with this.

In terms of strength and durability, we see that Demeter granted her with strength and power "like that of the earth itself". We can assume that this was year one base Diana, since under Perez she slow grew into that strength. However, she's also been stated to be Stronger than Hercules. Hercules is exactly as strong as Shazam, since he gave Billy his strength, meaning we can essentially use both their feats as one character. Hercules himself has done the whole "lifting the infinite weight of the Heavens" thing like in myth and Shazam has punched black holes into existence on top of fighting Superman several times, Diana has bested both Hercules and Shazam in one-on-one fights to prove the Stronger than title, I believe she once fought Shazam but it was a tie way back when. Diana herself has stated that she's never found a limit to her strength. In short, Diana is stated to be stronger than Hercules, a guy that has lifted infinity, Diana being stronger is basically a fancy way of saying "she has no limit".

Speed is a little more complicated. Hermes grants her just speed (we don't know how much) and flight. It's clearly beyond human comprehension. She's blocked millions upon millions of faster than light god shards, kept pace with Flash at over 9000 mph and could easily double it, has moved way faster than light, and has both stated and proved to be "faster than Superman" via Batman and their fights. She's also been said to be swifter than Hermes. However, Hermes has been shown to (at least in the past) run circles around flash. I don't believe for a second that Diana is faster than Flash. So, IMO, it all depends on what definition people want to use for swiftness. I consider swiftness to be more about combat speed then raw point A to point B speed. This is why I separate raw speed and combat speed/reflexes. Does Diana have a limit for speed? well, yes and no. She should easily be one of the swiftest fighters, capable of fighting at flash level speeds, which in on itself is absurd, easily faster than light. However, she does have a limit in raw speed, which is basically several steps below where Flash is, the same rule applies for Superman in this regard.

So... yes, her powers are mostly limitless. None are given an exact level. Really, only Athena and Aphrodite could even be considered granting Diana access to their "full power", Wise as Athena and Beautiful as Aphrodite. And even then, on paper Athena just gave her general wisdom, so again no real limit. It's hard to measure given its limitless, but it definitely shouldn't stop below city level. Outside of speed being really measured with Flash like every other character, she normally is put up against Superman, Shazam, Thor etc...

Again, I want/expect Nubia to be at this level.

However, I agree with BitetheBullet. Nubia gaining power in Dooms Doorway comes with more questions than answers. If Nubia started out as a regular amazon and gained Diana levels of power via proximity inside the Doorway, why don't ALL the amazons do that? Why not just move Themyscira into the Doorway via magic and just stay there to get more powerful? how does this affect or not affect the demons already in Dooms Doorway? This is just off the top of my head. Dooms Doorway was originally just a mega prison that connected to the underworld. Why make it more complicated by adding this mystic energy thing?

Nubia becomes Champion of Dooms Doorway, as such she is blessed by the patrons with the same power and strength as Diana to guard it effectively. There, not complicated, everyone gets what they want.

I'm not sure any of this even applies anymore if she's just Zeus's daughter.

And there are a lot of assumptions in your assessment, some of them unreasonable given the history and reboots.

Ah well. None of this really matters to me. For the people it does matter to, I hope they find your post helpful.

[Perseus]

I'm not sure any of this even applies anymore if she's just Zeus's daughter.

And there are a lot of assumptions in your assessment, some of them unreasonable given the history and reboots.

Ah well. None of this really matters to me. For the people it does matter to, I hope they find your post helpful.

Everything is canon according to DC it all applies. But its whatever, none of this is nuanced according to some, and it doesn't matter, so why bother worrying about where Nubia is compared to Diana anyway.

[Koriand'r]

That is what I mean by lazy writing. If the best they can come up with is absorbing magic from Dooms doorway as a way of saying Nubia gets her powers, that just seems idiotic and lazy to me.

You realize these are comic books right? None of this is real. Anything a writer comes up that's approved by editorial is canon. As with Daddy Zeus sometimes we have to deal with things we don't agree with.

[Primal Slayer]

If Nubia gets her powers from the Door then i wouldn't expect her to be equal to Diana. Maybe in strength/durability but they should have some different abilities.

[SonOfBaldwin]

Everything is canon according to DC it all applies. But its whatever, none of this is nuanced according to some, and it doesn't matter, so why bother worrying about where Nubia is compared to Diana anyway.

Right. I was just replying to a specific query. It actually doesn't matter to me. What matters is that the stories I've been reading Nubia in have been awesome. They are really doing great work building her world and history. Awesome stuff. And I love that she's going to be a fixture in the DCU now. There are rumors that she might even be appearing in the next Wonder Woman film.

[SonOfBaldwin]

If Nubia gets her point from the Door then i wouldn't expect her to be equal to Diana. Maybe in strength/durability but they should have some different abilities.

I think Stephanie Williams did say that Nubia's powers will be explained in the upcoming limited series.

[Nyssane]

I loved that we got a retelling of Nubia's origin that honors aspects of the original. We even got takes on her previous looks, which I really appreciated. Stephanie Williams is very committed to world building for Nubia, and by extension, the Amazons.

Stephanie Williams deserves so much credit for breathing this new life into Nubia. Love her. I hope we continue to get Williams-helmed Nubia stuff after her next mini-series.